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> Alternahacking, Non-handwave hacking for the lazy
MADness
post Mar 24 2014, 09:05 PM
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I was wondering if there is a simplified version of hacking rules. I'm afraid to even crack them, from all the crazy and contradictory things I hear; but one of my soon-to-be players has expressed interest in being a decker. I was wondering/hoping that someone had already come up with something workable, relatively simple, and relatively enjoyable.

If not, then I guess I will have to bash out my own crazy mess. That just sounds like a bad idea.
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Draco18s
post Mar 24 2014, 09:28 PM
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Give me about a week and I'll have something even better.

It's almost done, I just need some time to polish.
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Sendaz
post Mar 24 2014, 09:34 PM
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I suggest going for the Black & Decker Role, using a PowerSaw for all your Hacking needs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Or you could wait for Draco I suppose. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Draco18s
post Mar 24 2014, 09:55 PM
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I'll see about having it a little sooner but less complete. Got a whole section that needs to get done in some respect before it's usable for a Shadowrun game.

Also, yes, I'm being intentionally vague.
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MADness
post Mar 24 2014, 10:21 PM
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Not to delay your work Draco, but you got any hints on what you've done? I had an idea for direction (reminding that I have no actual understanding of how they stand or how real hacking works), which was to take the parallel between mages and tks and applying it a similar theory to deckers. Some programs act as weapons, others as ware or other gear. Noise affects thresholds and the like. But I need to read the rules to make sure I understand what the goal is. My main goal is to streamline the games options for the sake of ease rather than conformity. If we only really have to understand one or two systems, rather than four or more, than players are more likely to experiment with different archetypes and builds.
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Sendaz
post Mar 24 2014, 10:46 PM
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I cas--err--run Dataspike at the Darkness!!
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Draco18s
post Mar 24 2014, 11:03 PM
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QUOTE (MADness @ Mar 24 2014, 05:21 PM) *
My main goal is to streamline the games options for the sake of ease rather than conformity. If we only really have to understand one or two systems, rather than four or more, than players are more likely to experiment with different archetypes and builds.


You have an idea. That's good.
That said, it doesn't fit within the context that I'm working in.

Even if what I have going doesn't end up working for you, I think you'll be impressed anyway. Give me a few days. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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thorya
post Mar 24 2014, 11:04 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 24 2014, 05:28 PM) *
Give me about a week and I'll have something even better.

It's almost done, I just need some time to polish.


I've been in a "just another week" place on hacking rules for 6 months. Without a game for people to use them in, it hasn't seemed worthwhile.
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Draco18s
post Mar 25 2014, 12:02 AM
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QUOTE (thorya @ Mar 24 2014, 06:04 PM) *
I've been in a "just another week" place on hacking rules for 6 months. Without a game for people to use them in, it hasn't seemed worthwhile.


I'm not kidding though. This is something I've been actively working on for...most of the month.
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thorya
post Mar 25 2014, 12:18 AM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 24 2014, 07:02 PM) *
I'm not kidding though. This is something I've been actively working on for...most of the month.


I didn't think you were kidding. I've definitely have been in that place. I've got a ten page document of alternate rules for pretty much every system I've ever played in, because things just don't work to my liking.

Got most of the way to making programs function like spells with a specific purpose. So you had a separate program just for taking out cameras or a virus to delete each file on a commlink. I was to the point of defining the different list of programs, when I lost interest because the game didn't come together. I keep meaning to get back to it, but never do.

MADness, if you would like what I've got, I can post it. But it's about 6 pages all together, so I don't want to clutter the thread if that seems different than what you intend. My rules put a much stronger focus on programming before a run and once you're out there the code either works or it doesn't (but you might have redundant programs to accomplish the same goal). There's no hacking a system on the fly, keeping track of marks, cybercombat, etc.
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MADness
post Mar 25 2014, 12:29 AM
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Thorya, If you have a link or a download, pm it to me, I'll give it a read. And I was not attempting to imply anything about your system Draco (the internet's lack of vocal inflection makes me feel like I have to apologize for everything I say). I also want to read over your stuff.

And just to be clear, I want to make hackers feel more like street same in the matrix, and tms more like mages or shamans. That way everyone has their own flavor, and I can keep a squad of teenaged boys engaged regardless of the roles they play.
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RHat
post Mar 25 2014, 12:37 AM
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QUOTE (MADness @ Mar 24 2014, 03:05 PM) *
I was wondering if there is a simplified version of hacking rules. I'm afraid to even crack them, from all the crazy and contradictory things I hear; but one of my soon-to-be players has expressed interest in being a decker. I was wondering/hoping that someone had already come up with something workable, relatively simple, and relatively enjoyable.

If not, then I guess I will have to bash out my own crazy mess. That just sounds like a bad idea.


I'm just going to say this: Form your own opinion. The hacking rules are actually quite simple; most of what's getting said about them comes from trying to make things too complex with a system not yet able to support the complexity (presumably, that will come in Data Trails).
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Jack VII
post Mar 25 2014, 12:47 AM
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If you really want just a very basic hacking system, you could do something like this:

- For simplicity's sake, any device you can see is auto-spotted, regardless of whether it is running silently or not. (This mainly impacts tactical hacking)
- Ignore MARKs
- Roll Skill + Attribute as normal, the limit equal to your deck's DR (ASDF no longer exists)
- Devices resist with their DRx2, Host's with their Host Rating
- For a super-simple approach to tactical hacking, any net hit allows the hacker to do what they want with a device (turning it off, causing dice pool penalties to an opponent, etc). Alternately, you could set thresholds to accomplish different things (1 net hit for dice pool penalty, 2 net hits for shutting the device down for a minute or two, 3 net hits to brick, etc.)
- For hosts, essentially the same thing. Net hits allows entry/file access/device manipulation/etc or thresholds for the same for a more complicated approach.
- For cybercombat, Cybercombat + Logic vs. Host Rating (IC) or Cybercombat + Logic (if opposing decker). Keep track of net hits on each side. If net hits exceed 1/2 Host Rating (IC) or Device rating (opposing decker), the persona/IC is defeated, causing dumpshock and shutting down the defeated deck for 10 minutes or so.

There are a lot of other things to consider and probably some significant balance issues, but I think that's a start to making things simpler (eliminating a lot of the spotting rules, ASDF and MARKs for example). I personally like the hacking rules, but I think they could be made simpler if you wanted.
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Draco18s
post Mar 25 2014, 02:17 AM
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Oh, I should mention.

What I'm working on is more better as a plugin to 4th than a plugin to 5th as I'm assuming any target the player will be hacking will be Host-equivalent. Not a gun or cyberware.
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DMiller
post Mar 25 2014, 02:24 AM
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Actually Jack, I like some of your ideas. Our group has always tried to have 2 sets of hacking rules. 1 set is the RAW, and is used for important hacks. The other set is for speed-hacking things that are needed, but not story-line important. So things like stealing the data file you were hired to get would use RAW, but bypassing the camera in the parking structure would use speed-hacking. I may take a closer look at some of the options you have presented.
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Sponge
post Mar 25 2014, 05:04 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 24 2014, 05:28 PM) *
Give me about a week and I'll have something even better.

It's almost done, I just need some time to polish.


I was just about to start a thread about some rough ideas I've been mulling over for a replacement Matrix system (5e), to get some feedback. I'll hold off a bit and see what you have first (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

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Draco18s
post Mar 25 2014, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE (Sponge @ Mar 25 2014, 12:04 PM) *
I was just about to start a thread about some rough ideas I've been mulling over for a replacement Matrix system (5e), to get some feedback. I'll hold off a bit and see what you have first (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Don't wait for me, go right ahead. I'm more working on SR4 and you won't be stepping on my toes at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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MADness
post Mar 25 2014, 10:28 PM
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So far, I like the basics (skills and asdf) though I may drop the use of Computer for matrix perception (Matrix becomes a Perception specialty). Bricking is something I hear a lot about, and I am attempting something to at least mitigate it. However, I have no experience with hacking rules (either as a player or as a cm), so I have no idea if my "fix" is even really usable. It's essentially an extra modification that provides protection against the worst of bricking side effects (no more spinal fires); and a buff on the critical glitch rules (the same mod reduces perma bricking). I just don't know how these will work out for actuall play. Btw, the mod is an extra 25% cost, cyber comes default with it (to protect against catastrophic system failures that may occur with such stuff anyway).
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Sponge
post Mar 25 2014, 11:30 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 25 2014, 01:46 PM) *
Don't wait for me, go right ahead. I'm more working on SR4 and you won't be stepping on my toes at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


I started to write up such a post and just doing that made me realize I need to have something a little more fleshed out first. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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RHat
post Mar 26 2014, 12:16 AM
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QUOTE (MADness @ Mar 25 2014, 04:28 PM) *
the worst of bricking side effects (no more spinal fires);


Those side effects don't actually exist. Small fires are a POSSIBLE consequence of bricking, not a UNIVERSAL consequence of bricking, and it's ridiculous to assume they're present when the consequences are that severe.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 26 2014, 12:30 AM
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QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 25 2014, 05:16 PM) *
Those side effects don't actually exist. Small fires are a POSSIBLE consequence of bricking, not a UNIVERSAL consequence of bricking, and it's ridiculous to assume they're present when the consequences are that severe.


You should re-read that section... They are a COMMON feature of a device being bricked. Far from just a possibility.
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RHat
post Mar 26 2014, 12:32 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2014, 06:30 PM) *
You should re-read that section... They are a COMMON feature of a device being bricked. Far from just a possibility.


They are not universal features, period.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 26 2014, 12:46 AM
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QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 25 2014, 05:32 PM) *
They are not universal features, period.


Says you... But the book says otherwise. Those things Listed ARE COMMON EFFECTS of Bricking. Period. You may not get all of them all the time, but they are all frequent enough happenings to be called Common. You may not like it, but it is fact.
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RHat
post Mar 26 2014, 12:48 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2014, 06:46 PM) *
Says you... But the book says otherwise. Those things Listed ARE COMMON EFFECTS of Bricking. Period. You may not get all of them all the time, but they are all frequent enough happenings to be called Common. You may not like it, but it is fact.


But there are also times where that DON'T happen, because they're COMMON, and not UNIVERSAL. You may not like it, but it's a fact
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 26 2014, 12:54 AM
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QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 25 2014, 05:48 PM) *
But there are also times where that DON'T happen, because they're COMMON, and not UNIVERSAL. You may not like it, but it's a fact


Yes, but your continual arguing that Fires don't happen in the Body is tedious and wrong. As evidenced by the quote in the book itself. They DO HAPPEN. And it Happens enough to be called a COMMON occurrence. Internal Cyber fires NOT happening would be an UNCOMMON occurrence. *shrug*
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