Rigger Limits, Data Processing too? Options

[BlackJaw]

I understand that the data processing of your device (typically an RCC for a Rigger) acts as a limit when remote controlling (in AR or VR) a vehicle or drone. This is a limit cap on top of the appropriate Handling/etc limit of the vehicle or drone itself.

Does this limit still apply if you are jumped in? If so, is it modified by the Control Rig rating?

[Happy Trees]

From what I understand, being jumped in gives you a bonus equal to your control rig rating, and uses your matrix stats for determining things like initiative, but otherwise you're still limited by your device.

[BlackJaw]

From what I understand, being jumped in gives you a bonus equal to your control rig rating, and uses your matrix stats for determining things like initiative, but otherwise you're still limited by your device.

Doesn't the Control Rig only add to the Handling and (*sigh*) Speed? Data Processing is a whole different limit... right?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Doesn't the Control Rig only add to the Handling and (*sigh*) Speed? Data Processing is a whole different limit... right?

Yes.... and Yes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Lobo0705]

CR adds to the Sensor, Speed, and Handling, and the Accuracy of mounted weapons.

Note that these are the LIMITS, and not the actual values (for Speed specifically)

Check the Rigger chapter, page 266:

"When you’re jumped into a vehicle, drone, or other device, the limits of that device are increased by the rating of your control rig. This includes vehicle and drone Sensor, Speed, and Handling, and the Accuracy of mounted weapons when used by the rigger."

In other words: It does not actually increase the Speed rate of the vehicle, it merely increases Speed as limit, aka in a Speed Chase. A rigger can't push a vehicle to move 8x as fast, he simply can keep 3 hits more in a Speed Chase.

[BlackJaw]

But if I'm using my RCC, all those limits, modified as they are by the Control Rig, are all still capped by the Data Processing on my RCC, right?

[DMK]

No, they're not. The RCC is not doing the majority of the work, unlike in a remote control scenario. When you're jumped in, it's your Control Rig that's letting your brain do the work. Data Processing doesn't apply as a limit. It only acts as a limit for Command tests, whatever that means (my best guess is they meant Control Remote Device tests.)

As an example, you can jack into a vehicle directly using the cable from your control rig. While your Matrix attributes will suck (I strongly suggest turning wireless off in this scenario) you still get all the benefits of rigging. Control Rigs cost a lot of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and a lot of essence and it provides a lot of benefit in return for those costs.

[Lobo0705]

But if I'm using my RCC, all those limits, modified as they are by the Control Rig, are all still capped by the Data Processing on my RCC, right?

I think we might be talking past each other - so there is no misunderstanding, here is my understanding as to how rigging works:

1) Manual
2) Remote
3) Rigger
4) Auto

1) Manual Control - simple - you use your skills and stats, and it acts on your initiative pass

2) Remote - is the result of the Control Device action. If you look at the way that works (page 238), you are not telling the drone/vehicle to do something, you are actually doing it - hence you use your skills and stats, and it acts on your initiative pass. You can control multiple drones/vehicles to do the same exact thing i.e. fire at a target, and this action costs nothing extra. If it isn't exactly the same thing, then you have to split your dice pools among the different drones/vehicles. The way the rules are written, you would get the +2 dice bonus for Hot Sim VR, in that you gain +2 for all Matrix Actions, and Control Device is a Matrix Action.

3) Rigger - this is when you are "jumped into" the vehicle. You gain a bonus to the Sensor, Speed, Handling and Accuracy equal to the rating of the Control Rig. You gain a bonus to Vehicle tests equal to the rating of the Control Rig. Your threshold for Vehicle tests is reduced by the rating of the Control Rig (minimum 1), along with the +2 bonus for being in VR, and the drone you are jumped into acts on your init.

4) Auto - this is when the drone has been given a command - via a Send Message simple action. In this case, it acts on its own initiative, and uses its own Pilot + programs. Having an RCC allows you to command all the drones connected to it using a single simple action - and they do not have to be given the same command.

The control rig only comes into play with selections 1 and 3, not 2 and 4.

[BlackJaw]

Remote Controlling a Vehicle is a matrix action, and that action is limited by Data Processing.
Doesn't that mean that my limit for remote control vehicle actions, unless I'm jacked directly into the vehicle, is the Data Processing of my Commlink, Deck, or more likely a Rigger Control Console or the vehicle's ratings, which ever is lower? So while my vehicle may have a Handling of 5, the Data Processing of 3 on my RCC is the final cap?

Doesn't rigging use the same rules as remote control, but with benefits from being jumped into the drone (IE: Control Rig ratings)? That means it's still limited by Data Processing, right?

To use your four options: Under options 2 & 3, unless I'm jacked into the vehicle directly, I'm using some other device to form my persona, and that device's Data Processing becomes second limit for all my actions.

[Jaid]

rigging a vehicle and remote controlling it are not the same thing.

[BlackJaw]

So Data Processing acts as a second limit for Remote Control, but not for rigging?

Can some one point me to the correct page or quote for this?

[Lobo0705]

Here's my understanding.

I want to drive my car down the road. All of a sudden, someone stops in front of me, and I need to make a crash test.

1) Manual - note this cannot be done in VR

I use my Pilot skill + my Reaction, with a limit equal to the Handling of the car. If I am a rigger, and I am connected to the vehicle, I gain a bonus to my Handling Limit equal to its Rating, and my threshold is reduced by its rating as well. I do not need a Control Rig to do this.

2) Remote - can be done in either AR or VR

I use my Pilot skill + my Reaction, with a limit equal to the Handling of the car, OR my Data Processing, whichever is lower. Note that if I were in VR, I would gain +2 dice. I do not need a Control Rig to do this, and my Control Rig gives me no bonuses.

3) Rigger - note, this cannot be done in AR, must be in VR.

I use my Pilot skill + my Reaction, with a limit equal to the Handling of the car. I gain a bonus to my Handling Limit equal to its Rating, and my threshold is reduced by its rating as well. I also gain a bonus of +2 dice. This is NOT the same as controlling a device using VR (as #2 above).

I MUST have a Control Rig to do this.

4) Auto

Here, I am not doing anything, and the car uses its Pilot Rating + Maneuvering.

[Jaid]

Here's my understanding.

I want to drive my car down the road. All of a sudden, someone stops in front of me, and I need to make a crash test.

1) Manual - note this cannot be done in VR

I use my Pilot skill + my Reaction, with a limit equal to the Handling of the car. If I am a rigger, and I am connected to the vehicle, I gain a bonus to my Handling Limit equal to its Rating, and my threshold is reduced by its rating as well. I do not need a Control Rig to do this.

2) Remote - can be done in either AR or VR

I use my Pilot skill + my Reaction, with a limit equal to the Handling of the car, OR my Data Processing, whichever is lower. Note that if I were in VR, I would gain +2 dice. I do not need a Control Rig to do this, and my Control Rig gives me no bonuses.

3) Rigger - note, this cannot be done in AR, must be in VR.

I use my Pilot skill + my Reaction, with a limit equal to the Handling of the car. I gain a bonus to my Handling Limit equal to its Rating, and my threshold is reduced by its rating as well. I do not need a Control Rig to do this. I also gain a bonus of +2 dice. This is NOT the same as controlling a device using VR (as #2 above).

I MUST have a Control Rig to do this.

4) Auto

Here, I am not doing anything, and the car uses its Pilot Rating + Maneuvering.

err... your third situation (rigger) says in the middle of your example that you don't need a control rig, then the last line of the example that you must have one. (@ blackjaw) the statement that you must have one is the correct one, for rigging.

as to the rules that say data processing is not the limit when rigging, can you show me the one where it *is* the limit? because the only place i noticed it being a limit was in the rules for remotely controlling things via the matrix, which does not use rigging at all (and can be done on stuff that doesn't have a rigger interface, like standard first aid kits and automated assembly lines).

[Lobo0705]

err... your third situation (rigger) says in the middle of your example that you don't need a control rig, then the last line of the example that you must have one. (@ blackjaw) the statement that you must have one is the correct one, for rigging.

as to the rules that say data processing is not the limit when rigging, can you show me the one where it *is* the limit? because the only place i noticed it being a limit was in the rules for remotely controlling things via the matrix, which does not use rigging at all (and can be done on stuff that doesn't have a rigger interface, like standard first aid kits and automated assembly lines).

Whoops! Copy and paste error - fixed. Thanks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Here is the thing, as Jaid said, the only place it shows Data Processing as the limit is with Remote control, which anyone can do. No where in the Rigger chapter does it mention Data Processing as the limit for being jumped in.

[RHat]

So Data Processing acts as a second limit for Remote Control, but not for rigging?

Can some one point me to the correct page or quote for this?

There isn't really a page. However, the actual rule is that Data Processing is a limit for Control Device actions. While jumped in, you're not using that action for the vehicle you're jumped into.

[Jack VII]

Data Processing is used to determine Initiative when running in VR and acts as the Limit for all Command tests performed on the RCC.

While "Command" test isn't really defined, it's probably reasonable to assume that it includes Control Device actions through the RCC rather than when you're Jumped In. When you're Jumped In, you're considered to "be" the drone. You don't give yourself a command to fire a weapon when you're in your meat body, so you wouldn't issue a command when you're jumped in either.