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> Troll Combat Monster in SR5
Machiavelli
post Apr 1 2014, 02:27 PM
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On our last run my mage got ass-kicked a lot and our GM proposed, that i would be allowed to play two chars simultaniously if i want some "additional protection". I was playing a troll-adept in SR4 and was very satisfied with it, but in SR5 it seem, that alone chosing the troll-species, leads to a rather weak character. Even a cybered one didnīt come out as expected. Does somebody have some experience with combat oriented chars like that and would you be willing to help?

Thank you.
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Lobo0705
post Apr 1 2014, 05:02 PM
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QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 1 2014, 10:27 AM) *
On our last run my mage got ass-kicked a lot and our GM proposed, that i would be allowed to play two chars simultaniously if i want some "additional protection". I was playing a troll-adept in SR4 and was very satisfied with it, but in SR5 it seem, that alone chosing the troll-species, leads to a rather weak character. Even a cybered one didnīt come out as expected. Does somebody have some experience with combat oriented chars like that and would you be willing to help?

Thank you.


Sure - how can I help?
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Umidori
post Apr 1 2014, 06:34 PM
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You're asking for help building a Troll killing machine on Dumpshock.

Somehow I think EVERYONE here can help.

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Kyrinthic
post Apr 1 2014, 07:19 PM
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I'm no expert, but it does hurt the throw your A/B into race, not so much that you cant make it effective though.
The way I see it, you have two options really,

Either aim for a broke-ass adept-troll, cause fists are cheap
something like:
A: Meta Troll (5)
B: Attribs (20)
C: Skills (28/2)
D: Adept (2) [use those special points to bump to 6]
E: Resources (6k)

Or a cyber-monster troll, and leave the adept thing out of the mix
Something like this
A: Resources (450k)
B: Meta Troll (0)
C: Attribs (16)
D: Skills (22/0)
E: special (-)
and cram him full of ware and guns.
You could push the resources down to C (and the previous two up) and still have enough for minimal ware as well. A troll with max edge is kinda scary after all.

In either case, skills can be moderately low, you dont need him versitile after all, just very capable of one or two things. if you have the high resources, you can skillwire him to make up for it too.

These are obviously just starting points.
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Smash
post Apr 2 2014, 02:26 AM
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QUOTE (Kyrinthic @ Apr 2 2014, 06:19 AM) *
I'm no expert, but it does hurt the throw your A/B into race, not so much that you cant make it effective though.
The way I see it, you have two options really,

Either aim for a broke-ass adept-troll, cause fists are cheap
something like:
A: Meta Troll (5)
B: Attribs (20)
C: Skills (28/2)
D: Adept (2) [use those special points to bump to 6]
E: Resources (6k)

Or a cyber-monster troll, and leave the adept thing out of the mix
Something like this
A: Resources (450k)
B: Meta Troll (0)
C: Attribs (16)
D: Skills (22/0)
E: special (-)
and cram him full of ware and guns.
You could push the resources down to C (and the previous two up) and still have enough for minimal ware as well. A troll with max edge is kinda scary after all.

In either case, skills can be moderately low, you dont need him versitile after all, just very capable of one or two things. if you have the high resources, you can skillwire him to make up for it too.

These are obviously just starting points.


It's a mistake to discount edge, unless you are jusy going to ignore limits. Particularly if you are going to be a melee troll (why wouldn't you be?).

I'd go with for a cyber-troll:

A: Meta Troll
Pump all the special attributes into edge

B: Resources (275k)
Wired reflexes 2 149K
Muscle replacements 2 (alpha) 60K
If you're not paranoid about wireless then maybe some reaction enhancers to increase survivability (and how rad you are at driving limos). If not, get some orthoskin or maybe dermal plating to up your soak dice.
Smartlinks are cheap and cost low essence but don't do much more than those in glasses or laser sights)
Armored Jacket (armour 12). Wear it everywhere. You might get strange looks, but you're a bodyguard, you'll have a sin saying you're a bodyguard.

(Don't get cybereyes. Glasses will do)

C: Attribs

Body: 7
Agility: 4(6)
Reaction: 5(7)
Strength: 7(9)
Willpower: 3
Logic: 2
Intuition: 3
Charisma: 1
Edge: 6
Essence: 1.4

D: Skills
Take unarmed, bladed weapons (specialise in axes), and perhaps automatics. Make the bladed weapons 6, the others can be 3-4. The rest is just good for whatever you want to do really.

Use a combat axe and reserve edge for busting your limit, which is only 4.

It doesn't matter how much body you have, reaction is what keeps you alive. Especially, since you will probably not be able to pump your intuition very high. Get wired reflexes 2 (3 seems like an upgrade path to me).
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Jaid
post Apr 2 2014, 03:09 AM
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nah, don't "upgrade" to wired 3. the essence cost combined with your muscle replacement will either kill you or turn you into a cyberzombie. you would need at least *alpha* wired 3, and at that point, you have to ask yourself a question... why are you paying 434,000 nuyen and 4 essence (plus the cost of upgrading your other cyber to alpha, because it's still costing you 4 essence and rating 2 muscle replacement is 2 essence... and 0 essence is not a good thing) when you could pay 285,000 nuyen and 1.5 essence for the same bonus, minus the supposed "advantage" of being able to make your wired reflexes into wireless reflexes.

(on a side note, depending on how much 'ware you want initially, setting "special" to D and choosing adept gets you a heck of a lot more than the difference between skills E and skills D will give you. at least, provided you can keep your essence high enough to avoid being a burnout - it would almost definitely require you to use more bioware instead of cyberware. i *might* even suggest going a step further and putting skills to C, and lower attributes, although that's gonna *really* limit your attributes a lot, particularly if you combine it with the adept option... it's not a huge added difference in points relative to attributes D, it's just a huge reduction in how many attributes you can afford to buy with nuyen).
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Curator
post Apr 2 2014, 03:21 AM
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a troll adept can be pretty strong, though not the killing machine right off the bat. just get high skills in what you need to survive, your fists can be the best weapon ever, carry 2 guns, one worth hiding, and one no one can take off of you. buy a motorcycle. you'll be fine
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Sengir
post Apr 2 2014, 10:24 AM
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Note that bost Synaptic Boosters and Wires 3 are out of chargen reach due to Availability. If you want to play Neo (and why not, it's fun), you'll have to take the Adept route...
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Kyrinthic
post Apr 2 2014, 12:57 PM
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QUOTE (Smash @ Apr 1 2014, 10:26 PM) *
It's a mistake to discount edge, unless you are jusy going to ignore limits. Particularly if you are going to be a melee troll (why wouldn't you be?).

Use a combat axe and reserve edge for busting your limit, which is only 4.

It doesn't matter how much body you have, reaction is what keeps you alive. Especially, since you will probably not be able to pump your intuition very high. Get wired reflexes 2 (3 seems like an upgrade path to me).


I did mention that bumping up the meta for edge was a fun thing to do. That said, I still dont like combat axes.
You will be sitting at a 16+ dice pool with that axe, that means anything above average requires edge to realize. I'd trade two points of damage for 3 points of acuracy, its crazy not to, its why katanas are so popular. 12 damage vs 14 damage may be the difference between straight dead and wounded to uselessness, but either result is usually just fine for what you are doing. Even if you dont geek em in the first hit, its a safe bet they are going to surrender or run before they take a second one.

I pretty much agree with the rest of your advice, though I hate wired reflexes, only the first level is really worth the price tradeoff. level 2 at 150k vs 190 for the same effect at half the essence gives a lot more room to grow. Level 3 is just, well silly, like Jaid said.

People give a bit too much importance to initiative dice. they are a far cry less important than initiative passes in the last system, it takes 3 dice on average to let you get another action. Its worth fitting in, but building around it is less vital than 4th. Starting with level 1 reflexes isnt going to get you mauled, and gives you more room to work with. You could step the resources down another step and have more attrib points to play with for example. Put some in reflexes and intuition if you are worried.


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Jaid
post Apr 2 2014, 04:36 PM
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being an adept can help with your limit problems ^^

(on a side note, getting wired reflexes/synaptic booster up to a higher rating does also boost your reaction, which impacts how well you dodge and is actually an additional bonus to initiative... so each level is worth 4.5 initiative, on average, not 3.5, so imo is slightly more important than you give it credit for)
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Kyrinthic
post Apr 2 2014, 05:54 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 2 2014, 11:36 AM) *
being an adept can help with your limit problems ^^

(on a side note, getting wired reflexes/synaptic booster up to a higher rating does also boost your reaction, which impacts how well you dodge and is actually an additional bonus to initiative... so each level is worth 4.5 initiative, on average, not 3.5, so imo is slightly more important than you give it credit for)


This is true, I was mostly commenting about the dice, since people seem to equate them with the initiative passes from 4th that were stupidly powerful.

That said, you can get a reaction dice a lot cheaper both in essence and in nuyen if thats what you are looking for.
At 65k and 2.6 essence you can get 3 reaction and 1 dice, compared to 2 and 2 for 150k and 3 essence.
Course you need to run in wireless for that, which is a whole other discussion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


PS: oh, about the adept limit thing, do they get a way to increase a weapon limit, or do you just mean they dont need the combat axe if they are going adept?
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Smash
post Apr 2 2014, 09:56 PM
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QUOTE (Kyrinthic @ Apr 2 2014, 11:57 PM) *
I did mention that bumping up the meta for edge was a fun thing to do. That said, I still dont like combat axes.
You will be sitting at a 16+ dice pool with that axe, that means anything above average requires edge to realize. I'd trade two points of damage for 3 points of acuracy, its crazy not to, its why katanas are so popular. 12 damage vs 14 damage may be the difference between straight dead and wounded to uselessness, but either result is usually just fine for what you are doing. Even if you dont geek em in the first hit, its a safe bet they are going to surrender or run before they take a second one.


2 Damage can mean a lot against high level spirits and vehicles with hardened armor. While I agee that you will often roll more than 4 successes, you will often not need more than 4. Against run of the mill gangers and security, 4 is going to be plenty. Besides, this is why you have 6 edge. My current character currently has 3 edge and rarely uses all of it. At 6 you will feel comfortable to burn it quite often to get over the line with high end opponents.


QUOTE (Kyrinthic @ Apr 2 2014, 11:57 PM) *
I pretty much agree with the rest of your advice, though I hate wired reflexes, only the first level is really worth the price tradeoff. level 2 at 150k vs 190 for the same effect at half the essence gives a lot more room to grow. Level 3 is just, well silly, like Jaid said.

People give a bit too much importance to initiative dice. they are a far cry less important than initiative passes in the last system, it takes 3 dice on average to let you get another action. Its worth fitting in, but building around it is less vital than 4th. Starting with level 1 reflexes isnt going to get you mauled, and gives you more room to work with. You could step the resources down another step and have more attrib points to play with for example. Put some in reflexes and intuition if you are worried.


The difference between wired 1 and 2 in this case is the difference between having a 3rd IP a bit over 50% of the time vs 3% of the time. IPs are absolute gold in Shadowrun, although I agree that if you want to aim for a solid 2 then it can be achieved much more cheaply so you can then increase attribute or divert cash into other areas, like resistance.
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Jaid
post Apr 3 2014, 12:35 AM
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QUOTE (Kyrinthic @ Apr 2 2014, 01:54 PM) *
PS: oh, about the adept limit thing, do they get a way to increase a weapon limit, or do you just mean they dont need the combat axe if they are going adept?


enhanced accuracy, page 309. should work with both the katana *and* the combat axe, so you can carry both if you want, and use whichever seems most applicable.
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Cain
post Apr 3 2014, 03:54 AM
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QUOTE
The difference between wired 1 and 2 in this case is the difference between having a 3rd IP a bit over 50% of the time vs 3% of the time. IPs are absolute gold in Shadowrun, although I agree that if you want to aim for a solid 2 then it can be achieved much more cheaply so you can then increase attribute or divert cash into other areas, like resistance.

Generally speaking, adepts are better than cybered mundanes as just about everything, but especially at initiative. You basically can't start with Wired 3, but an adept can start with the equivalent Improved Reflexes. Also, it's easier to raise in game: cybersurgery is expensive and tricky to arrange.
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X-Kalibur
post Apr 3 2014, 04:22 AM
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Is the troll bow not a thing in SR5?
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Umidori
post Apr 3 2014, 05:00 AM
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They technically put a nail in Troll-bows back in 4E, with Errata capping the upper damage limit to within human-attainable levels. You could still make a super strength archer to do decent high end damage (particularly with Krav Maga), but there was no longer any real need to make it a Troll specifically except for a slight cost efficiency on buying up and augmenting your Strength.

In 5E, they've carried over the same philosophy. There is a maximum bow rating of 10, which means all but the absolute strongest bows are useable by any metatype who boosts their Strength high enough.

They took things a step further, though. While pretty much every other type of weapon got a damage increase for the new edition, the DV of a bow is still the same old (Rating + 2). That means they're much weaker across the board in comparison, with assault rifles, shotguns, and sniper rifles now being on par with the absolute most powerful bow in the world.

Bows do have one change: their AP is now calculated as (Rating / 4), which means a Rating 10 bow is 12P -3AP, which is equivalent to a Cavalier Arms Crocket EBR sniper rifle. (At least in terms of damage, anyway.)

So they essentially took the only niche benefit of bows and completely obliterated it. They are now, officially, Completely Useless™.

Bows are the size of longarms, so they're just as hard to coneal. Bows do the same damage as longarms, except you have to spend a Simple Action every shot to Ready the Weapon. The corebook for SR5 cheerfully points out that bows can't be hacked, but neither can a longarm that isn't wireless enabled, and even those can still take modifications and accessories - bows can't. Bows require a massive investment in Strength on top of other investments in Skill and Agility - longarms require none. Bows are legal to carry while longarms are Restricted, but even the corebook admits that bows are incredibly rare, and thus they're going to stick out like a sore thumb - you're going to have less trouble carrying a shotgun with a Fake License than you would carrying a completely legal bow.

Oh, but bows are cheaper and more available. So there's that, I guess.

Some might argue that Bows should count as "Silenced" weapons, but for some bizarre reason this eminently sensible proposal has never actually made it into any of the books as an actual rule - yet even that would be of only minimal value, since it's not exactly hard to get a Silencer for an equivalent longarm.

~Umi
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Kyrinthic
post Apr 3 2014, 02:58 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 2 2014, 11:54 PM) *
Generally speaking, adepts are better than cybered mundanes as just about everything, but especially at initiative. You basically can't start with Wired 3, but an adept can start with the equivalent Improved Reflexes. Also, it's easier to raise in game: cybersurgery is expensive and tricky to arrange.


Thats moderately debatable. Dont get me wrong, they are the only ones that can start with +3 dice, and they get it without spending a single nuyen. But it is 3.5 magic for 3 dice.

Bioware can get you the same +3 dice for only 1.5 essence, less with better grades. With deltaware you could even get level 3 under one essence. Assuming you rob a bank to afford it. Even a magic user or adept with a bit of cash may well be better served by bioware in the long run.

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X-Kalibur
post Apr 3 2014, 03:52 PM
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Which is why the bio-adept is such a common theme in character designs. Give up 1 MAG for multiple ATT increases in other places is a great deal.
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Umidori
post Apr 3 2014, 05:09 PM
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I realized I forgot one more important thing about bows.

It used to be that bows were the only muscle-based weapons that didn't base their damage on STR/2. But now every muscle-based weapon is some variant of STR + X, including much smaller and more concealable Throwing Weapons.

So you can carry around an impossible-to-hide, suspicion arousing specially constructed "Rating 10 titanium-sheathed beryllium-alloy bow" (SR5, p. 423) that also requires an equally hard to conceal quiver full of equally special arrows because it would "turn wood or fiberglass arrows into powder", and for your trouble you can deal (STR + 2) DV at range with an AP of -3 that require a Simple Action to ready and another Simple Action to shoot...

Or you can trade 1 DV and 2 AP for a handful of Throwing Knives that you can hide anywhere, which are much less socially suspicious even when found because they aren't hi-tech specialty items, which are their own ammo, and which you can Ready in batches of (Agility/2).

Oh, and apparently Throwing Knives can also get a wireless bonus in conjunction with a smartlink, with each consecutive attack against the same target gaining an incrementing dice pool modifier?

Wait.... what the frag happens if a hacker bricks a throwing knife? Suddenly the hunk of metal with an RFID lodged inside it becomes immune to physics and can no longer be thrown? I mean, what, does it just spontaneously explode into pieces? This literally cannot be reconciled with how bricking ostensibly works.

(Not how it should work, mind, which is that the wireless functionality and anything controlled by it goes dead - but rather how it does work, which is spectacular failure with sparks and smoke and whatnot.)

~Umi
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 3 2014, 06:14 PM
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Well, the throwing Knife RFID transmitter sparks and explodes, but the Throwing Knife is Still a Knife. Maybe you can get a Damage Bonus from the Sparking and explody spectacular failure?
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Umidori
post Apr 3 2014, 06:28 PM
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Throw a knife, then use your remaining actions that turn to Brick it on purpose?

That's actually a good point - presumably you can brick your own devices without a contest. If they fail so spectacularly, what's to stop people from turning otherwise ordinary electronics good into discrete bombs?

~Umi
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Jaid
post Apr 3 2014, 07:01 PM
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oh, no, that can't be. everyone knows that when you take a piece of electronics and put it inside a person, that alters the laws of reality and makes it brick in a completely *different* manner from how the exact same piece of electronics would get bricked outside of a person's body. [/sarcasm]

on a less tangential note, throwing adepts also haven't got all their special tricks yet, most of which function just fine with throwing knives (or indeed with any throwable object), but not for bows.
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Sponge
post Apr 3 2014, 07:12 PM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Apr 3 2014, 01:00 AM) *
So they essentially took the only niche benefit of bows and completely obliterated it. They are now, officially, Completely Useless™.

Bows are the size of longarms, so they're just as hard to coneal. Bows do the same damage as longarms, except you have to spend a Simple Action every shot to Ready the Weapon. The corebook for SR5 cheerfully points out that bows can't be hacked, but neither can a longarm that isn't wireless enabled, and even those can still take modifications and accessories - bows can't. Bows require a massive investment in Strength on top of other investments in Skill and Agility - longarms require none. Bows are legal to carry while longarms are Restricted, but even the corebook admits that bows are incredibly rare, and thus they're going to stick out like a sore thumb - you're going to have less trouble carrying a shotgun with a Fake License than you would carrying a completely legal bow.

Oh, but bows are cheaper and more available. So there's that, I guess.


There's a reason national militaries switched from bows (and melee weapons, for that matter) to firearms hundreds of years ago.
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Sendaz
post Apr 3 2014, 07:31 PM
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QUOTE (Sponge @ Apr 3 2014, 02:12 PM) *
There's a reason national militaries switched from bows (and melee weapons, for that matter) to firearms hundreds of years ago.


Yes and No.

There is a good article about this here: http://www.technologyreview.com/view/42236...ns-versus-bows/

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Umidori
post Apr 3 2014, 07:51 PM
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The long and short of it is that guns are easier to teach someone to use, and fire more rapidly over longer distances with less need of compensation for gravity.

Arrows and melee weapons actually impart massive amounts of kinetic energy and inflict horrific wounds, because they're so much more massive than bullets. Shot for shot, I'd rather get hit with a bullet than an arrow or a katana any day. Guns are just easier to use and allow you to make more "attacks" in a certain space of time.

So if we're talking armies, yeah, it makes sense to use weapons that require minimal training, because then you can equip and field a large force on short notice. It also makes sense to use weapons that put a lot of lead down range, because even if most of the shots miss, sheer volume can still be overwhelming and thus effective.

Getting hit with an arrow launched from a bow made from 2075 high tech composite materials powered by the muscles of a 500+ plus Troll on magical or cyberware steroids (or both) should be akin to getting impaled by a spear shot out of a cannon, or getting hit with an ancient Roman ballista. Upper limit bows should be hitting as hard as Assault Cannons, and their major drawback should be their slow rate of fire and their absurd Strength requirements.

Then they at least would still fill a niche. Do you want the legal-to-own-and-carry bow and arrow that fires silently but requires great physical strength to use? Or do you want the completely shoot-on-sight-illegal assault cannon that wakes up the entire neighborhood and is even more absurdly impossible to conceal, but which has the benefit of being useable by a total weakling?

~Umi
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