Troll Combat Monster in SR5 Options

[RHat]

same. both of them have 3 in each as i recall. well, 3(5) for reaction, courtesy of wired 2. he hasn't mentioned reaction enhancers, and frankly i don't think either of us has the cash for them without downgrading our deck more than we want to.

That being the case, the Troll definitely wins out on defense; the Troll has better Body, a point of natural armour, and can rock more +Armour accessories, which I think have yet to be factored at all.

[Jaid]

we have the same soak pool, assuming we wear the same suit; i have 2 less body, and 1 less natural armour, but 3 points in my cyberarm. you haven't been following along very closely, have you?

considering that any schmuck can wear any one suit of armour, regardless of armour values, i just need to wear the appropriate suit to match him.

[RHat]

we have the same soak pool, assuming we wear the same suit; i have 2 less body, and 1 less natural armour, but 3 points in my cyberarm. you haven't been following along very closely, have you?

considering that any schmuck can wear any one suit of armour, regardless of armour values, i just need to wear the appropriate suit to match him.

I've been following just fine - I'm pointing something out that hasn't been factored. Your Strength (actual, not cyberlimb) is at what, 3? Given that last I checked, the Troll's running Muscle Replacement 2, bare minimum he can carry +7 worth of Armour accessories against your human's +3, giving him the edge on soak and on stun vs physical.

Normal armour isn't limited, but +armour stuff is, and that's going to make a difference here. Combine that with the better condition monitor, and the troll is definitely harder to kill.

[Cain]

secondly, missions FAQ (which is the only errata that's come out in english that's worth a damned thing) allows used cyberware at chargen. i've mentioned used cyberware like 3-4 times now. if it bothers you, why is this the first time it's come up?

Your last post was the first time you brought up used specifically, and the first time you tried pulling a source quote stunt. You're resorting to questionable rules interpretations to shore up your example. I'll grant that the augmented max rule is really hard to find, but it is the second time you're relying on a hinky rules call.

thirdly, there is no advantage for using two weapons to burst fire. i don't need to burst twice per round. and unless you're using both guns, you're not getting the recoil compensation from both guns. further, if we're both using the same gun, then i also have a cyberarm gyromount that is mounted on my arm, not the gun, and which holds the arm steady. 3 extra points of recoil comp there, which you aren't getting. which is beside the point; the vast vast vast majority of the time, you're going to be better off using a single 6 round burst every round, because you can do that in a simple action, use the remaining action to take aim (oh hello there higher limit and bonus die), and your recoil does not accumulate that way.

There is a huge advantage in bursting twice per round. I've had a very hard time doing one-shot kills in SR5, every time but once, even the weakest mook has taken two or more hits before they go down. So, multiattacking is a huge deal, you can gurantee one takedown or wound two people this way. With the burst rules being what they are, there's almost no chance of someone not getting hit. Additionally, multiattacking doesn't take a complex action; a troll can multiattack with two different guns and still take no recoil, which your human can't do effectively.

You're also ignoring the obvious. If we go twin-guns, you *do* get the RC from both. You take a small penalty, but you can either absorb it or get ambidexterity. Additionally, even if we're only talking one gun, a cyberarm gyromount is not the highest RC-to-mount ratio. You could get a full gyromount for cheaper, or a tripod that deploys wirelessly. Normally, I'd be a little worried about having wifi enabled, but since our guy is a decker too, he can minimize that risk. And yes, while a deployed tripod or full gyromount is obvious, if we're only using one weapon we might as well have one that counts, so we should be discussing LMG's at this point.

But, to sum up: your're unable to use my build to make a superior human combat decker, you're resorting to min/max tricks and hinky rules calls, as well as going for a radically different build approach. And even then, you're not coing out ahead in any primary dice pool except shooting... and there, you're behind by so much recoil copm, it's a wash. The troll is ahead in soaking, and the human is ahead in Edge. You keep saying that humans are vastly superior at everything, but I'm not seeing it. When does the "vastly superior" numbers start showing?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I've been following just fine - I'm pointing something out that hasn't been factored. Your Strength (actual, not cyberlimb) is at what, 3? Given that last I checked, the Troll's running Muscle Replacement 2, bare minimum he can carry +7 worth of Armour accessories against your human's +3, giving him the edge on soak and on stun vs physical.

Normal armour isn't limited, but +armour stuff is, and that's going to make a difference here. Combine that with the better condition monitor, and the troll is definitely harder to kill.

Can't really carry a lot of +Armor Stuff, though, because the Troll is using both hands to fire automatics every round. *shrug*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Your last post was the first time you brought up used specifically, and the first time you tried pulling a source quote stunt. You're resorting to questionable rules interpretations to shore up your example. I'll grant that the augmented max rule is really hard to find, but it is the second time you're relying on a hinky rules call.


There is a huge advantage in bursting twice per round. I've had a very hard time doing one-shot kills in SR5, every time but once, even the weakest mook has taken two or more hits before they go down. So, multiattacking is a huge deal, you can gurantee one takedown or wound two people this way. With the burst rules being what they are, there's almost no chance of someone not getting hit. Additionally, multiattacking doesn't take a complex action; a troll can multiattack with two different guns and still take no recoil, which your human can't do effectively.

You're also ignoring the obvious. If we go twin-guns, you *do* get the RC from both. You take a small penalty, but you can either absorb it or get ambidexterity. Additionally, even if we're only talking one gun, a cyberarm gyromount is not the highest RC-to-mount ratio. You could get a full gyromount for cheaper, or a tripod that deploys wirelessly. Normally, I'd be a little worried about having wifi enabled, but since our guy is a decker too, he can minimize that risk. And yes, while a deployed tripod or full gyromount is obvious, if we're only using one weapon we might as well have one that counts, so we should be discussing LMG's at this point.

But, to sum up: your're unable to use my build to make a superior human combat decker, you're resorting to min/max tricks and hinky rules calls, as well as going for a radically different build approach. And even then, you're not coing out ahead in any primary dice pool except shooting... and there, you're behind by so much recoil copm, it's a wash. The troll is ahead in soaking, and the human is ahead in Edge. You keep saying that humans are vastly superior at everything, but I'm not seeing it. When does the "vastly superior" numbers start showing?

Except in their role, the Human Combat DECKER is better than the Troll, and is about Even in the Combat (Your experiences are obviously not Jaid's Experiences when it comes to lethality). See my Spoiler above, which you apparently missed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Post 147. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jaid]

1) there's nothing hinky about it. that's how the rules for cyberarms work. if you feel like this is entirely caused by cyberarms being better, then make a troll that uses it, and i'll make a new non-troll version that does what your troll does... but better. even if i have to restrict myself to having the same attributes, i'm slightly better (very slightly... i'd have +1 edge as a human, for example); the real source of power in my build is that you don't really gain much at all from having a high body and strength, such that i can make a perfectly good combat character with neither of those stats particularly high, unless i'm specifically making a troll melee build or a troll full tank build. which is a large part of why trolls are too expensive for what they get.

2) i can hit twice with one gun. you can hit twice with two guns. there is no dodge penalty per bullet, there is a dodge penalty for what type of burst/shot you're making. if i do a full burst with one gun, i can attack twice for a -9 dice pool on their defence. if you do a full burst with two guns you can... attack twice for a -9 dice pool on their defence. same result. more realistically, since we presumably don't want to have our recoil build up forever, we'll each be doing a full-auto long burst from our guns, in which case i'm still allowed multiple attacks, and you're still allowed multiple attacks.

3) it's a cyberarm gyro mount. it's mounted on the cyberarm, not the gun. it doesn't take any slots at all on the gun, just the cyberarm.

also, on a side note, LMGs kinda suck in SR5. they're not the best gun unless you're trying to use full auto against someone from extreme range. tack on that they require a completely different skill which is generally much less useful than automatics (for shadowrunners, at least; heavy weapons is great for someone that never needs to worry about concealing weapons).

[Machiavelli]

I am really sorry, i didn´t want you all to start a fighting-and-ranting thread about if trolls in SR5 are better than humans or not. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
But as we are here anyway, I just wanted to step on the con-troll-side in this discussion. If you compare the benefits a troll offers with the real and potential drawbacks, playing a troll is stupid most of the time. Not because they are ugly (sorry for that), but because they are way too expensive in SR5 compared to what you get out of it. Of course you can make a playable char. with this metatype, but numbers-wise it will not come out better than e.g. a human. It was already close to the edge in SR4, but in SR5 it is much worse and I would play a troll only because of the style.

[Lobo0705]

Troll - Attributes D
B 5
A 3
R 3
S 5
I 5
C 1
W 3
L 5
Edge 1

Human - Attributes C

B 3
A 3
R 3
S 1
I 5
C 1
W 3
L 5
Edge 5

Skills:

Troll - Skills C
Some Skill Group 2
Hacking - 6
Computer - 6
Computer 6
Automatics - 6
Hardware 2
Software 2


Human - Skills B
Electronics Group (Hardware, Software, Computer) 5
Hacking - 6
Electronic Warfare - 6
Cybercombat - 6
Automatics - 6
12 other skill points

That is all before karma.

Both of you have Resources A, so that is a wash (i.e. you can both purchase the same equipment/ware giving you the same bonuses).
Both of you have Magic E, so that is a wash
Race is already factored into the Edge and stats above.
Both sides still have 25 karma to spend.

So, in general:

1) The human is the better decker - 3 more dice Hardware and Software, plus he has the EW skill.
2) The troll is better at soaking damage - 2 higher body, + 1 for natural armor
3) The troll will be better when firing more than a Long burst.

If you fire one gun, assume for argument's sake an Ares Alpha, which has an integral RC of 2, plus can mount Gas Vent 3, and Shock Pads and a foregrip - that gives you 7 points of RC, plus 1 for the Human and plus 3 for the Troll.
That means the Human can fire a 10 round burst losing 2 dice from his attack pool. The Troll can fire 10 rounds with no penalty.

If you fire two guns, (both Ares Alphas), the troll can fire 20 rounds and have a total RC of 15 (each Ares Alpha adds 6, plus his 3 for strength) for a -5 dice pool penalty, while the human would only have a RC of 13 (each Ares Alpha adds 6, plus his 3 for strength)

In this case, the Foregrip is meaningless, as you can't use it (since both hands are otherwise occupied) - so the troll has a 3 dice pool advantage.

4) When firing ANYTHING else, i.e. single shot, short burst, long burst, they are identical (since the AR compensates for all the rounds).

(As an aside, unless you are playing a very different game than I am, the number of times you can be walking around firing multiple assault rifles is very small - then again, I don't play Pink Mohawk.)

5) The Troll's physical limit is MUCH better - a 6 instead of a 3 - but given his complete lack of skills, he isn't going to hit that number very often anyway.

So, to sum up:

1) The troll is better at the combat part of the Combat Decker - in that he can soak about one more box of damage (on average) and has a higher condition monitor (by 1). In those instances where you are firing full auto, the troll also is better by 2 or 3 dice.

2) The human is better at the decking part of the Combat Decker - in that he has a 3 dice pool advantage Hardware and Software, PLUS Electronic Warfare 6 - while giving up 1 die in computers.

3) The human is better rounded, in that he will have 6 more skill points than the troll (nominally he has 12, but the troll has 2 points in 3 different skills from his skill group)

4) The human has the ability to either recover from a disastrous roll (or push the limits and do something spectacular) 5 times, as opposed to the troll's once.


Is the human "vastly superior" - no. Is it superior? Yes, in that while the 3 extra points of soak and the 3 higher physical limit is nice, it doesn't make up for the 8 extra skill points (in general) and the 9 extra skill points (in the Electronics Group), and the 4 points of Edge.

That's my 2 cents, anyway.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Lobo0705 - The Human has 5 Edge - He starts with 2, and then adds 3 for Racial Pick (+3 Special Attributes). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Awesome Comparison...

[Lobo0705]

Lobo0705 - The Human has 5 Edge - He starts with 2, and then adds 3 for Racial Pick (+3 Special Attributes). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Awesome Comparison...

Whoops (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Fixed - thanks!

[Sponge]

Computers is part of the Electronics skill group, you can't have the skill group at 2 (or 5) and the skill at 6 as well. So either the Troll is good at Computers and loses a couple of secondary Decking skills (can't default on Hardware or Software), or keeps those secondary skills and is crappy at Computers (which is very important for Deckers). The Human has enough spare skill & skill group points to be good at both, AND pick up EW (which is also a pretty important Decking skill, used for Control Device, Hide, Jam, and Snoop).

[Lobo0705]

Computers is part of the Electronics skill group, you can't have the skill group at 2 (or 5) and the skill at 6 as well. So either the Troll is good at Computers and loses a couple of secondary Decking skills (can't default on Hardware or Software), or keeps those secondary skills and is crappy at Computers (which is very important for Deckers). The Human has enough spare skill & skill group points to be good at both, AND pick up EW (which is also a pretty important Decking skill, used for Control Device, Hide, Jam, and Snoop).

Thanks Sponge - updated comparison.

[Cain]

Jaid: your second hinky rules call is that the rules clearly say you can't start with Used cyber. I'm aware that the rule is contradicted, but that means you're cherrypicking rules to suit you. You're trying to take advantage of a grey area.

2: there's a cumulative defense penalty. Each additional attack suffers a -1 defense. So, multiple attacks are progressively harder to defend against.

3. A gyromount uses the underbarrel slot on a gun. It doesn't matter if its a cyber gyro or a full one, if you have something else in that slot you can't use them. What does matter is that the cyber gyro isn't the most RC you can fit into that slot.

Lobo: I appreciate your analysis. I think its enough to prove that trolls aren't useless, outside of typecasting. They're comparable characters, while the human has some advantages in flexibility, the troll has better specialties. Depending on the game you're playing and what the player wants, either is a good choice.

[Stahlseele]

Err . . what?
Since when does a CYBER GYRO USE UP SPACE ON A WEAPON? O.o
Especially since the Cyber Gyro is both depicted and described as moving parts coming out of your wrists and guns usually being held not at the wrist but with the barrel way in front of the knuckles where the under barrel slot will reside?

[X-Kalibur]

Err . . what?
Since when does a CYBER GYRO USE UP SPACE ON A WEAPON? O.o
Especially since the Cyber Gyro is both depicted and described as moving parts coming out of your wrists and guns usually being held not at the wrist but with the barrel way in front of the knuckles where the under barrel slot will reside?

This precisely, the cyber gyromount takes up no weapon slots. Besides, what if the gyro is on your trigger hand, how does it use up the under barrel location then?

[Stahlseele]

This precisely, the cyber gyromount takes up no weapon slots. Besides, what if the gyro is on your trigger hand, how does it use up the under barrel location then?

@Cain
Didn't we JUST complain somewhere about the line in the concealed holster that says it's not taking up space on the weapon?
And now you want to argue that a cyber gyro does? seriously?

[Jaid]

we're making the same number of attacks. i can use multiple attacks with full auto and one gun, just like you can with double full auto and two guns. there is no difference. if i make 2 attacks, i split my dice pool in two. if you make two attacks, you also split your dice pool in two, regardless of how many guns either of us are using. the only difference is that for certain guns, you cannot take the multiple attack action without having two (for example, if you are using SA mode).

also, the human loses less (or alternately pays less) for using a cyberarm, which is a pretty strong advantage for a build like this (by which i mean, a character concept where attributes are already spread very thin). of course, you have to give up on the double assault rifle idea... but then, i consider that a bonus, not a drawback.

[Lobo0705]

we're making the same number of attacks. i can use multiple attacks with full auto and one gun, just like you can with double full auto and two guns. there is no difference. if i make 2 attacks, i split my dice pool in two. if you make two attacks, you also split your dice pool in two, regardless of how many guns either of us are using. the only difference is that for certain guns, you cannot take the multiple attack action without having two (for example, if you are using SA mode).

also, the human loses less (or alternately pays less) for using a cyberarm, which is a pretty strong advantage for a build like this (by which i mean, a character concept where attributes are already spread very thin). of course, you have to give up on the double assault rifle idea... but then, i consider that a bonus, not a drawback.

Jaid,

I think you are misunderstanding what Cain is talking about with multiple attacks.

Assume I have one assault rifle, and there is one target. Assume that target has a Reaction of 5 and an Intuition of 5.

I can use the Full Auto Complex Action to fire Full Auto at them. Assume a pool of 18, and I have no modifiers other than recoil. With the human build, 10 bullets gives you a -2 penalty.

Therefore I roll 16 dice and the target only gets 1 die to dodge (since they take a -9 defense test modifier). Assume I get 5 hits to their 0, they each have to resist a 15 DV wound.

What Cain is saying is that instead of doing that, he can use two assault rifles - assume he has the same target as above. He can fire 20 rounds, taking a 5 die modifier (barring other strength increases). This reduces his die pool from 18 to 13, and he then splits it to 7 and 6 dice respectively. The target only gets 1 die to dodge the 1st attack (10 pool, -9 for full auto), and 0 dice to dodge the 2nd attack (10 pool, -9 for full auto, -1 for 2nd attack dodged). Assume that the troll got 2 hits on each of his attacks to 0 on each of the 2 defense tests, and now the target has to resist TWO 12 DV wounds - much more lethal than just the one assault rifle full auto.

What you can't do, is use one assault rifle to make multiple attacks against the same target.

[Jaid]

and what i'm saying, is that all the rules for using off-hand weapons refer you to the exact same rule as the rules for making multiple attacks with a long burst or full auto burst. it isn't clear if you can attack the same target or not with a multiple attacks action, but whether you have one gun or ten guns, you are *still* using the multiple attacks action.

so either the multiple attacks action does allow you to attack the same target, or it doesn't. it really doesn't matter which it is. either way, it's the same.

[Lobo0705]

and what i'm saying, is that all the rules for using off-hand weapons refer you to the exact same rule as the rules for making multiple attacks with a long burst or full auto burst. it isn't clear if you can attack the same target or not with a multiple attacks action, but whether you have one gun or ten guns, you are *still* using the multiple attacks action.

so either the multiple attacks action does allow you to attack the same target, or it doesn't. it really doesn't matter which it is. either way, it's the same.

With respect, it isn't.

You can use two pistols or SMGs or assault rifles to fire two times at the same target. Doing so not only splits your dice pools, but it doubles the recoil, doubles the ammo consumption, and gives you the offhand penalty (unless you've incurred the cost of buying the ambidextrous penalty).

You are trying to say that by using 1 weapon, you can use the multi-attack free action to do the same thing, but using half the ammo, half the recoil, and no offhand penalty? That is incorrect.

You can use one weapon and the multiple attacks free action to attack two targets - and all you do is split your dice pools - and in that respect, it is better than using 2 weapons to do so, because you don't take any of the above modifiers.

If you want my unsolicited opinion, this is where the system is really wacky, in that if I attack 1 target with 10 bullets, he takes a -9 modifier. If I attack 2 targets with those same 10 bullets (i.e. half the amount of lead for him to dodge) he still takes that same -9 modifier. If I attack 3 targets, with that same 10 bullets, they take that same -9 modifier.

ETA - I'll grant you that the Multiple Attack section is poorly written - but the one thing that is fairly concrete is that you cant use one gun to split up a burst as multiple attacks against one target. (You can go to the main rules forum and look up the Multiple Attacks thread).

ETTA:

Here is the link

Relevant quotes are:

Rhat:
"For reference: You're completely mistaken. The rules flat out do not permit a single firearm to be used to attack the same target twice."

Michael Chandra:
"Neryll, splitting the burst is completely different from attacking someone twice with the same attack. A split burst is you spreading the bullets far enough that they're spread out over multiple enemies. You cannot in any way target the same person twice with the same burst. That wouldn't be a wide burst anymore. It's completely different from firing two separate guns at the same person."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Jaid,

I think you are misunderstanding what Cain is talking about with multiple attacks.

Assume I have one assault rifle, and there is one target. Assume that target has a Reaction of 5 and an Intuition of 5.

I can use the Full Auto Complex Action to fire Full Auto at them. Assume a pool of 18, and I have no modifiers other than recoil. With the human build, 10 bullets gives you a -2 penalty.

Therefore I roll 16 dice and the target only gets 1 die to dodge (since they take a -9 defense test modifier). Assume I get 5 hits to their 0, they each have to resist a 15 DV wound.

What Cain is saying is that instead of doing that, he can use two assault rifles - assume he has the same target as above. He can fire 20 rounds, taking a 5 die modifier (barring other strength increases). This reduces his die pool from 18 to 13, and he then splits it to 7 and 6 dice respectively. The target only gets 1 die to dodge the 1st attack (10 pool, -9 for full auto), and 0 dice to dodge the 2nd attack (10 pool, -9 for full auto, -1 for 2nd attack dodged). Assume that the troll got 2 hits on each of his attacks to 0 on each of the 2 defense tests, and now the target has to resist TWO 12 DV wounds - much more lethal than just the one assault rifle full auto.

What you can't do, is use one assault rifle to make multiple attacks against the same target.

One 15 DV wound is likely just as deadly as two 12DV wounds (Your assumption uses standard Ammunition, I expect with no deviance for better ammunition). Dead is still Dead. *shrug*

[Cain]

One 15 DV wound is likely just as deadly as two 12DV wounds (Your assumption uses standard Ammunition, I expect with no deviance for better ammunition). Dead is still Dead. *shrug*

Because the game resolves each attack in sequence, if you drop the first target you can then switch your second attack to a different target. Two weapons gives you the flexibility to choose; one weapon means you must attack different targets.

[Lobo0705]

One 15 DV wound is likely just as deadly as two 12DV wounds (Your assumption uses standard Ammunition, I expect with no deviance for better ammunition). Dead is still Dead. *shrug*

15 DV against a mook is fatal, yes. Against a tougher opponent, the two 12 DV is a much surer method.

[Cain]

Err . . what?
Since when does a CYBER GYRO USE UP SPACE ON A WEAPON? O.o
Especially since the Cyber Gyro is both depicted and described as moving parts coming out of your wrists and guns usually being held not at the wrist but with the barrel way in front of the knuckles where the under barrel slot will reside?

I was under the impression that a weapon with an under-barrel item couldn't be fitted onto a gyro mount. Looking, closer, I may have been mistaken about that.

However... not only does the cyberarm gyro require a Simple action to deploy, it takes a Simple action to mount a gun into it, just like a regular gyro mount. You can't draw, deploy, mount, and fire in the same action. You also can't Take Aim, something Jaid said would be an advantage for a human. So, the action economy favors the troll, in this case.