Why do the books still list syringes?, ...and other trivial gear Options

[Sengir]

Leafing through the gear section in the 5th BBB the other day I was wondering about this: All gear sections are full of items which are really just everyday stuff, ported 1:1 with a random price tag added. Like the aforementioned disposable syringes, or rappelling gloves and light sticks (which btw went up in price from 5 ¥ to 25 ¥, are you kidding me?). This does not just clog up the book, it also encourages players (and builders of sample characters) to clog up the charsheets with line upon line of random stuff which sounds like it might be useful at some point.

What to do instead? Well, in most cases the obvious solution is just a few paragraphs up or down:
Medkit: The medkit includes drug supplies, bandages, tools, and a (talkative) doctor expert system I'm sure "drug supplies and bandages" includes some syringes and needles
Climbing gear: This is a backpack full of rope (400-kilo test), an ascent/descent harness, gloves Gloves already included, huh?

So why for example does the section for B&E gear not look like this:
B&E kit (R 1-6): This inconspicuous bag includes lock picks, electronics tools, a crowbar, and everything else needed to pick or force non-biometric locks. Adds its rating to tests for picking locks and gives a DV of [something dependent on rating] against barriers.
Power tool: A monofilament chainsaw, heavy-duty angle grinder, thermal lance, or other tool for cutting through serious obstructions [generic version of the mono saw, same stats]



PS: And if somebody wants to fill his word count on the cheap, at least do some sanity checking (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
The syringes are listed as Avail. 3, cost 10 ¥ A PIECE. I know, IRL there are places which restrict sales, but in SR? Cheap body mods everywhere but no needles, because of the dozen or so people still using IV drugs? Yeah, sure...

[Slide_Eurhetemec]

Leafing through the gear section in the 5th BBB the other day I was wondering about this: All gear sections are full of items which are really just everyday stuff, ported 1:1 with a random price tag added. Like the aforementioned disposable syringes, or rappelling gloves and light sticks (which btw went up in price from 5 ¥ to 25 ¥, are you kidding me?). This does not just clog up the book, it also encourages players (and builders of sample characters) to clog up the charsheets with line upon line of random stuff which sounds like it might be useful at some point.

What to do instead? Well, in most cases the obvious solution is just a few paragraphs up or down:
Medkit: The medkit includes drug supplies, bandages, tools, and a (talkative) doctor expert system I'm sure "drug supplies and bandages" includes some syringes and needles
Climbing gear: This is a backpack full of rope (400-kilo test), an ascent/descent harness, gloves Gloves already included, huh?

So why for example does the section for B&E gear not look like this:
B&E kit (R 1-6): This inconspicuous bag includes lock picks, electronics tools, a crowbar, and everything else needed to pick or force non-biometric locks. Adds its rating to tests for picking locks and gives a DV of [something dependent on rating] against barriers.
Power tool: A monofilament chainsaw, heavy-duty angle grinder, thermal lance, or other tool for cutting through serious obstructions [generic version of the mono saw, same stats]

PS: And if somebody wants to fill his word count on the cheap, at least do some sanity checking (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
The syringes are listed as Avail. 3, cost 10 ¥ A PIECE. I know, IRL there are places which restrict sales, but in SR? Cheap body mods everywhere but no needles, because of the dozen or so people still using IV drugs? Yeah, sure...

Broadly agree, particularly about the need for kits (piecemeal it's tedious and easy to forget things, which is bloody silly), but I assumed syringes were there solely for delivering drugs to unwilling targets and were very serious hard-wearing deals, given their ridiculous prices (should be more like 10 for 1¥ if they're just normal).

[binarywraith]

Why yes, we could make every bit of gear even more generic and thoughtless so that you won't have to look at unsightly clutter in a rulebook already crammed to the gills with pointless exposition and sidebars full of questionably useful and often outright confusing examples of play.

[Draco18s]

Why yes, we could make every bit of gear even more generic and thoughtless so that you won't have to look at unsightly clutter in a rulebook already crammed to the gills with pointless exposition and sidebars full of questionably useful and often outright confusing examples of play.

Buuuut.....

[psychophipps]

...we won't.

[Sengir]

Why yes, we could make every bit of gear even more generic and thoughtless

That would imply a listing "Glowstick. Works like a glowstick" is thoughtful and specific. I don't quite think so...

Broadly agree, particularly about the need for kits (piecemeal it's tedious and easy to forget things, which is bloody silly), but I assumed syringes were there solely for delivering drugs to unwilling targets and were very serious hard-wearing deals, given their ridiculous prices (should be more like 10 for 1¥ if they're just normal).

Auto-injectors (the kind intended to be rammed through NBC suits) would make sense for that, and since they are not totally run-of-the mill items would warrant a separate gear entry. But the entry in the book just says it's a disposable syringe, everybody who cannot wing something like that also needs stats for plasters, wound dressings, AA batteries, (non-electronic) earplugs, files...

[Happy Trees]

Steel Spoon:
Bod: 2 Str: 1

Weak against acids. Exposure to a corrosive substance results in an opposed test....

[Wounded Ronin]

Because it's funnier to say that if it's not explicitly on your character sheet YOU DON'T HAVE IT DAMN IT. NO SIR YOU DO NOT HAVE A GUM STICK IN YOUR POCKET, YOU NEVER SAID YOUR CHARACTER CHEWS GUM!

Personally I actually enjoy exhaustively listing gear and odds and ends on the character sheet.

[Smash]

Personally, I'll take what we've got. 5th Ed has shown some improvements by putting the amount a seats cars have over say, oh I don't know.... penile implants for instance?

Besides there are GMs out there who are very finicky about what's on character sheets and how much it all costs.

"Wait, you used 3 glow sticks last run. Did you expend the 6NY to buy them back?"

[psychophipps]

Because it's funnier to say that if it's not explicitly on your character sheet YOU DON'T HAVE IT DAMN IT. NO SIR YOU DO NOT HAVE A GUM STICK IN YOUR POCKET, YOU NEVER SAID YOUR CHARACTER CHEWS GUM!

Personally I actually enjoy exhaustively listing gear and odds and ends on the character sheet.

Situations like this are what a straight Edge roll is for. First time in an adventure it has a Threshold of 1 and it goes up one threshold each time the player attempts it. It has to be a mundane item that makes the scene more interesting, not just a roll to make your character's life easier. Good examples are small bottled water or flavored drink (8oz or so), chewing gum, paper clip, lip stick or gloss, rubber band or hair scrunchy, and other random odds and ends that could be in the pocket or bag of pretty much anyone.

[binarywraith]

Situations like this are what a straight Edge roll is for. First time in an adventure it has a Threshold of 1 and it goes up one threshold each time the player attempts it. It has to be a mundane item that makes the scene more interesting, not just a roll to make your character's life easier. Good examples are small bottled water or flavored drink (8oz or so), chewing gum, paper clip, lip stick or gloss, rubber band or hair scrunchy, and other random odds and ends that could be in the pocket or bag of pretty much anyone.

Or they're what knowing what's in your character's kit is for. Sometimes you're just that idiot who's infiltrating a site via a drainage pipe, and didn't think to buy a damn flashlight.

[psychophipps]

Or they're what knowing what's in your character's kit is for. Sometimes you're just that idiot who's infiltrating a site via a drainage pipe, and didn't think to buy a damn flashlight.

Is that an LED doo-hicky on your keys? *rolls edge* Why yes, I do believe it is...

I tend to give out one "pulled a dumbshit" roll for the whole group, but it's always going to be the lowest-powered version of the item I can imagine in the most frustrating version I can imagine. Free LED keychain sounds great until every little wobble makes the keys rattle (+1 threshold to Infiltration checks), you realize the pinching it is something that has to constantly happen, and the dicey grip means that nothing else can be in that hand for the duration of use.

[Curator]

i would imagine that ordering something on the matrix that's legal could be delivered via a drone in under 8 hrs, or 2 with a higher delivery fee

[Cain]

You know, I used to like exhaustive gear lists. I mean, you never knew when something would suddenly become useful, so the safest thing to do was to make sure you had everything. However, some things rapidly became ludicrous: no matter how useful a 10' pole might be, you couldn't realistically be carrying one everywhere.

Later, even though I had the habit of buying everything under the sun, I realized that most of the items I never used. They were just sitting there just in case the GM decided to be nitpicky. Then, I realized that even in gear dependent systems like Shadowrun, a lot of people didn't do precise accounting. Even the most nitpicky GM didn't actually keep close count on ammunition, for example, and only the most serious dick GM would screw you for forgetting to buy extra clips to hold ammo. I also started playing a lot of gear-light systems, and I discovered that extensive gear lists weren't even necessary: just letting people have anything reasonable worked just fine.

Nowadays, in Shadowrun and similar systems, I only account for significant gear. Small stuff is free, and if you would reasonably have it, you have it. If it's not on you, you might have it in your trunk. I also don't account for normal ammo; that's folded into your lifestyle costs as a Shadowrunner. Even specialty ammo, I only require that they buy more every so often; I don't count rounds, and I always assume that they've got enough rounds in their guns. It might make things a little easy on the PC's, but it makes things much smoother.

[thorya]

Because it's funnier to say that if it's not explicitly on your character sheet YOU DON'T HAVE IT DAMN IT. NO SIR YOU DO NOT HAVE A GUM STICK IN YOUR POCKET, YOU NEVER SAID YOUR CHARACTER CHEWS GUM!

Personally I actually enjoy exhaustively listing gear and odds and ends on the character sheet.

Ha! jokes on you, my character has a mild addiction to Betel and so definitely has a stick or two of betel chewing gum on him. (seriously, 1 nuyen for a +1 dice to perception? I assume every runner with half a brain has chewing gum)

[Umidori]

Personally, I'll take what we've got. 5th Ed has shown some improvements by putting the amount a seats cars have over say, oh I don't know.... penile implants for instance?

Not a fair quibble - Penile Implants were in Augmentation, which is a splat book, and the typical seat numbers for SR4 vehicles did get errata'd in.

And to be fair, SR5 shipped with plenty of much more glaring omissions, incomplete sections of rules, and indecipherably ambiguous language. So don't tout the fact that they included vehicle seating on the first try as some sort of success. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

[Wounded Ronin]

You know, I used to like exhaustive gear lists. I mean, you never knew when something would suddenly become useful, so the safest thing to do was to make sure you had everything. However, some things rapidly became ludicrous: no matter how useful a 10' pole might be, you couldn't realistically be carrying one everywhere.

Later, even though I had the habit of buying everything under the sun, I realized that most of the items I never used. They were just sitting there just in case the GM decided to be nitpicky. Then, I realized that even in gear dependent systems like Shadowrun, a lot of people didn't do precise accounting. Even the most nitpicky GM didn't actually keep close count on ammunition, for example, and only the most serious dick GM would screw you for forgetting to buy extra clips to hold ammo. I also started playing a lot of gear-light systems, and I discovered that extensive gear lists weren't even necessary: just letting people have anything reasonable worked just fine.

Nowadays, in Shadowrun and similar systems, I only account for significant gear. Small stuff is free, and if you would reasonably have it, you have it. If it's not on you, you might have it in your trunk. I also don't account for normal ammo; that's folded into your lifestyle costs as a Shadowrunner. Even specialty ammo, I only require that they buy more every so often; I don't count rounds, and I always assume that they've got enough rounds in their guns. It might make things a little easy on the PC's, but it makes things much smoother.

Oh man, I fetishize counting ammo, rounds in magazine, how much you can carry, and all this stuff.

[Wounded Ronin]

Ha! jokes on you, my character has a mild addiction to Betel and so definitely has a stick or two of betel chewing gum on him. (seriously, 1 nuyen for a +1 dice to perception? I assume every runner with half a brain has chewing gum)

See, now that's what I like to hear!

[psychophipps]

Not a fair quibble - Penile Implants were in Augmentation, which is a splat book, and the typical seat numbers for SR4 vehicles did get errata'd in.

~Umi

Some people might denigrate options like the penile implant, but some of the (shall we say "saucier"?) options allow for some interesting character concepts. My current PC/NPC is a looks human Ork former working girl turned assassin/street sammy with both breast implants and my own personal add-on cyber, a vaginal implant. A completely sealed system and controllable wetness would enhance not only the working girl's health and reproductive safety but also the fantasy that the girls offer their clients. Strictly necessary? Not really. Adding bits of flavor that drive some potentially interesting roleplaying opportunities later? You betcha.

The ability to go from Double Devastators to flatter than a bitch on a Big Wheel on command adding some "oomph" to her disguise skill? Yes, please.

[Umidori]

I never quite understood how they turned a quid of leaves, nuts, and lime into chewing gum.

~Umi

[psychophipps]

I never quite understood how they turned a quid of leaves, nuts, and lime into chewing gum.

~Umi

Not mention the fact that it turns your teeth black.

[Umidori]

Well, that's with habitual longterm usage.

~Umi

[Cain]

Oh man, I fetishize counting ammo, rounds in magazine, how much you can carry, and all this stuff.

I used to, but then I realized that it served no purpose except for the to screw players over with.

One time,I was running a sci-fi game, and the local munchkin spent every penny on the biggest gun he could find. During the first combat, I gleefully pointed out that he had forgot to buy ammo for it; and the next move was for someone to break his gun. Okay, he was a munchkin, but that was still a dick move on my part. After I matured some, I realized exactly how vicious that move was, and learned that strict accounting didn't really help anyone.

Some people might denigrate options like the penile implant, but some of the (shall we say "saucier"?) options allow for some interesting character concepts. My current PC/NPC is a looks human Ork former working girl turned assassin/street sammy with both breast implants and my own personal add-on cyber, a vaginal implant. A completely sealed system and controllable wetness would enhance not only the working girl's health and reproductive safety but also the fantasy that the girls offer their clients. Strictly necessary? Not really. Adding bits of flavor that drive some potentially interesting roleplaying opportunities later? You betcha.

The ability to go from Double Devastators to flatter than a bitch on a Big Wheel on command adding some "oomph" to her disguise skill? Yes, please.

I don't mind options like the penile implant, as long as it serves a purpose and is treated maturely. IMO, the stuff CGL put out was handled with all the decorum of a Beavis and Butthead video. Inflatable breasts might make a good cover for a concealed pouch, so I can see purpose in it; but treating it as a seduction bonus is just immature and demeaning.

[Umidori]

So long as the seduction bonus has reasonable restrictions, I don't see the problem.

It'd be like having Corporate Knowledge - sure, that helps you with Corporate types, but it'll probably do more harm than good if you try using it with Neo-Anarchists. Large breasts should help you seduce the kind of people who are into that, and they should also hinder you efforts with those who find it to be a turn-off.

One person's kink is another person's mood killer, after all.

~Umi

[Sendaz]

Ha! jokes on you, my character has a mild addiction to Betel and so definitely has a stick or two of betel chewing gum on him. (seriously, 1 nuyen for a +1 dice to perception? I assume every runner with half a brain has chewing gum)

So now we have a growing population of Runners who are now Betelheads? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)