Run & Gun is Live, I'll kill you to death!!!...with the help of this book Options

[CeeJay]

And yet, in Game, that Karma Expenditure for their Foci, Adept Abilities etc. DOES NOT DOUBLE in Play. Again, not an equivalent Argument. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think the main problem here is, that obviously "karma" at character generation is something different than "karma" earned during game play... it probably would have been smart to choose a different name for one or the other.

-CJ

[CeeJay]

Or the Ultamax MMG. Or the SOX Kontrollrot. True enough. He likes his last-minute edits, after all.

And than there are of course still weapons in the book, that are manufactured by Ultimax (a SMG iirc) and Nitama (the Sporter pistol) respectively. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

-CJ

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think the main problem here is, that obviously "karma" at character generation is something different than "karma" earned during game play... it probably would have been smart to choose a different name for one or the other.

-CJ

Or, you know, just use the same term and apply the costs identically pre/post game. But obviously no one would do THAT. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Xystophoroi]

If it's to balance MysAds then why 'punish' the Cyberware dude or the Edgetacular skill monkey by making them pay double too?

It just adds another layer of 'order of operations' to character gen which the multiplicative vs linear karma vs. character build points already makes a headache.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If it's to balance MysAds then why 'punish' the Cyberware dude or the Edgetacular skill monkey by making them pay double too?

It just adds another layer of 'order of operations' to character gen which the multiplicative vs linear karma vs. character build points already makes a headache.

Why should they pay double? I advocate a removal of the double cost and pay exactly what you are paying in Chargen. It is Karma afterall...

[psychophipps]

Why should they pay double? I advocate a removal of the double cost and pay exactly what you are paying in Chargen. It is Karma afterall...

I'll be the first to say that I have often been confused by some system's strange need to make post-creation character options more expensive than at character creation.

[RHat]

If it's to balance MysAds then why 'punish' the Cyberware dude or the Edgetacular skill monkey by making them pay double too?

It just adds another layer of 'order of operations' to character gen which the multiplicative vs linear karma vs. character build points already makes a headache.

This would be a legitimate argument if I said that balancing Mystic Adepts was the only benefit. But in point of fact I said there were multiple benefits, of which balancing Mystic Adepts is just one. And thus this is not a legitimate argument.

[binarywraith]

I'll be the first to say that I have often been confused by some system's strange need to make post-creation character options more expensive than at character creation.

Why? It serves to discourage min-maxing if done right, because if you leave a gaping flaw in your design to put points elsewhere, it will take forever to cover it with karma in-game.

[psychophipps]

Why? It serves to discourage min-maxing if done right, because if you leave a gaping flaw in your design to put points elsewhere, it will take forever to cover it with karma in-game.

But that pretty much happens on it's own, to be honest. You really want to fix the Body 1 that totally made sense at character creation, but it also takes 10 karma to bust up your skill group to get a 5 in your character's main skill and you still need 2 more karma for the specialization you "need" to really kick ass. And you know what? One extra attribute die isn't really that much difference...

Everything is a trade-off and those newly discovers holes will typically cover themselves up nice and slow all by themselves.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But that pretty much happens on it's own, to be honest. You really want to fix the Body 1 that totally made sense at character creation, but it also takes 10 karma to bust up your skill group to get a 5 in your character's main skill and you still need 2 more karma for the specialization you "need" to really kick ass. And you know what? One extra attribute die isn't really that much difference...

Everything is a trade-off and those newly discovers holes will typically cover themselves up nice and slow all by themselves.

Karma Specialization is 7 Karma, not 2 - What the hell is THAT?
But to be fair, now you can have multiple specialties for a Skill in SR5. Not sure WHY that is, but there you go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[psychophipps]

Karma Specialization is 7 Karma, not 2 - What the hell is THAT?
But to be fair, now you can have multiple specialties for a Skill in SR5. Not sure WHY that is, but there you go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sorry, examples from 4th Edition. But thanks for yet another reinforcing statement to stay away from 5th Edition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Larsine]

I kind of loathe the actual use of some of these martial arts.

The amount of cross referencing to use them is pretty hideous.

1st find what techniques your style allows you to perform, then read up on that technique in Run+Gun which commonly allows you to perform certain kinds of Called Shots or other actions more easily which means in turn checking either anther location in R+G OR the Core Book to identify what the actual technique you can perform means.

Just working out if th etechnique is worth taking and what equipment/skills/etc. feed into performing it takes rather a lot of referencing and that kind of referencing slows down play a lot. I know people should note this stuff down for ease of use in play. But no one I know does that.

The same is the problem with the new Hit Locations, and the effect of these.

The worst one is the effect Stunned, which has can be achieved by hitting 11 different locations, but it will have 7 different effects.

Instead of having one effect for being stunned, which players and GMs could actually remember, they now have to look up the effect, based of where the character was hit, and then make a test (Body+Willpower (1), (2), (3) or (4), or a Composure (2) test), and the apply the effect (-5 or -10 Initiative penalty).

Talk about streamlining the system (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sorry, examples from 4th Edition. But thanks for yet another reinforcing statement to stay away from 5th Edition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I know exactly how you feel. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Larsine]

I know exactly how you feel. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Why do you then have to keep commenting on SR5? There is no chance that you will actually manage to change the game, and you have obviously decided it doesn't work for you, but yet you pop up in every SR5 thread, and spread your negative vibes.

I seriously can't follow your way of thinking. If I was you I would stay well away from anything SR5 related.

[Stahlseele]

@Larsine:
Hi and welcome to dumpshock!
THIS IS WHAT WE DO OVER HERE.

[binarywraith]

Why do you then have to keep commenting on SR5? There is no chance that you will actually manage to change the game, and you have obviously decided it doesn't work for you, but yet you pop up in every SR5 thread, and spread your negative vibes.

I seriously can't follow your way of thinking. If I was you I would stay well away from anything SR5 related.

I can't understand why you're surprised people are commenting on 5E in a 5E splatbook release thread.

[Not of this Worl...]

Why do you then have to keep commenting on SR5? There is no chance that you will actually manage to change the game, and you have obviously decided it doesn't work for you, but yet you pop up in every SR5 thread, and spread your negative vibes.

I seriously can't follow your way of thinking. If I was you I would stay well away from anything SR5 related.

Kind of like what a drek-load of us did with the SR4 reboot.

I am back because I am still on the fence about SR5 as a whole. I guess something I am hoping to see that has not been done yet is for those of us who aren't committed, what exactly is Run & Gun adding to SR5 really?

[Stahlseele]

Kind of like what a drek-load of us did with the SR4 reboot.

I am back because I am still on the fence about SR5 as a whole. I guess something I am hoping to see that has not been done yet is for those of us who aren't committed, what exactly is Run & Gun adding to SR5 really?

Snarkiness, an officiel:"yeah, we heard you don't like limits, so as an optional rule, why don't you just play without them?", a kind of sort of but not really hit location system etc.

[Xystophoroi]

So, the Sonic Rifle, deals 7S damage, ignores armour, resisted with Willpower, yadda yadda.

It also causes Disorientation and Nausea.

Disorientation is applied as normal.

How does Nausea work? The core says it causes 3 turns of no action if the power of the toxin is > willpower...but there's no toxin. Nausea also causes increased wound penalties. But it's that incapacitation for 3 rounds we're really after here.

How does the Sonic Rifle work in regards to nausea?

[Jaid]

power is probably the same as damage.

although that makes the sonic rifle pretty danged scary against anyone who doesn't have a 6+ willpower. which is most people.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Why do you then have to keep commenting on SR5? There is no chance that you will actually manage to change the game, and you have obviously decided it doesn't work for you, but yet you pop up in every SR5 thread, and spread your negative vibes.

I seriously can't follow your way of thinking. If I was you I would stay well away from anything SR5 related.

Sadly, I cannot. My GM has transitioned to SR5. So, I keep looking at the threads, in the vain hope that it will get better.
Besides, It is my given right to complain about something I do not like. And as long as I am not vitriolic about it, it works. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And I do get some entertaining ideas from time to time.

[binarywraith]

power is probably the same as damage.

although that makes the sonic rifle pretty danged scary against anyone who doesn't have a 6+ willpower. which is most people.

Wonder if anyone at Catalyst did that math.


Of course they didn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Stahlseele]

power is probably the same as damage.

although that makes the sonic rifle pretty danged scary against anyone who doesn't have a 6+ willpower. which is most people.

Ever seen a Spirit hurl out it's non existing guts?
No? Want to? This is the Gun for you!

[Jack VII]

power is probably the same as damage.

although that makes the sonic rifle pretty danged scary against anyone who doesn't have a 6+ willpower. which is most people.

I think it is probably supposed to be similar to the Fichetti Pain Inducer, which seems to set the modified DV as the DV to compare for effects (although with an accuracy of 6(!), it seems relatively easy to stage the DV to a point that no one would be able to avoid the effects). With many things, both weapons should have probably been based on the same general rule set rather than making them ever so slightly different.

[Sengir]

So, the Sonic Rifle, deals 7S damage, ignores armour, resisted with Willpower, yadda yadda.

It also causes Disorientation and Nausea.

Disorientation is applied as normal.

How does Nausea work? The core says it causes 3 turns of no action if the power of the toxin is > willpower...but there's no toxin. Nausea also causes increased wound penalties. But it's that incapacitation for 3 rounds we're really after here.

How does the Sonic Rifle work in regards to nausea?

Assuming it's the same wording as in 4th ("Targets hit by a Screech beam suffer the effects of disorientation and nausea"): If it says they suffer the effects with no ifs and buts, then obviously it tells you to apply the effects and not the bits about resisting it. Yeah, it makes the getting hit quite powerful. The session where this question came up still was the only instance somebody used the sonic rifle