 Backpacks, Explosives and Barriers, More questions from ye olde newbie |
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 May 5 2004, 05:04 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 673 Joined: 30-March 04 Member No.: 6,206  |
Backpacks - About the concealability of gear: Can't I just shove my pistol into my backpack, surrounded by layers of cloth and other stuff? Would you rule that my hidden pistol can be be spotted by a visual-only perception check?
Explosives - Can I buy 'empty' or 'dud' mini grenades? I think GLs are noticably less noisy than guns, and I have an assault rifle setup which I want to use. I want a GV 4 on my barrel incase things get hairy, but for the Ares Antioch underneath, I want silent takedown rounds. Perhaps Rubber/Gel or just an empty minigrenade. I've check CC, they don't mention anything like this. I might have missed it though. Can someone provide rules? And while we're on the subject, what's the damage if I shoot someone within 5m? The grenade doesn't arm, but it has got to hurt. Speaking of which, I can call shot and aim my GL like a normal gun, right? For example, call shot head with an Off-AP round. No need to use scatter, just treat it like a normal firearms test, right? Barriers - Preparing for an upcoming run. We need to break through hardened material (32 barrier, I think) with explosives. How much C8 will I need to do so? |
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May 5 2004, 05:13 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 187 Joined: 30-April 04 Member No.: 6,294 |
A couple of my players came up with the backpack idea. Worked fine until the security guard checked it through the MAD scanner. The way I figure it, concealability for pistols and other such small weapons only applies if they're actually in a position that can easily be drawn from.
The duds I don't know about, but I'd say that grenades within 5M'd only do around 3-4L max, probably stun. |
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May 5 2004, 05:22 AM
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#3
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Ungodly amounts. I think that power equals Base Power *?(kilograms), so to get to 32 you'd neeed... 16 kilograms.
~J |
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May 5 2004, 05:41 AM
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#4
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Depending on size of said pistol and the backpack and cloth and stuff in question, I'd either give a hefty bonus to Concealability or simply not bother rolling. I'm not aware of any canon rule that modifies Concealability based on such things, but the +50% Concealability modifier for armored Long Coats is a good example of how such modifiers should be applied to things.
I'm going to assume there are no canon rules for this. I've never heard of them anyway. Minigrenades as presented in SR canon would be extremely sucky for this. With a range of 300 meters and 0.1kg total weight for a minigrenade, we're probably talking about ~100 meters per second muzzle velocity and ~70 gram projectile (40mm grenades average at ProjectileWeight/TotalWeight=0.7) for the whopping muzzle energy of 350 J/258 ft-lbs, which is well under what you get with a 9mm pistol, close to .38Spl levels. A much lighter projectile might bump that up to ~500J or so, but we're still looking at ~5M or 6M Stun for rubber rounds (or standard rounds without the payload), comparing to the Damage Codes of Light Pistols and SMGs. Real-world grenade launcher rounds fired from an underbarrel GL clock in at ~70 meters per second with a ~170 gram projectile for 416.5 J/307 ft-lbs, but you should get that to ~600 J or more with a much lighter projectile. That should be 6M Stun quite easily. So, uhh, yeah. 6M Stun is what I'd suggest for that, and using normal rules for Gel ammo. It's not much less noisy than a gunshot, though. Rules-wise, I don't think there's any difference. And logically there shouldn't be much either, maybe +1 TN. A normal round that doesn't go off would do less, because of less energy (as you can see from the above figures). I'd personally put it at 5M Stun, double Impact armor but no extra Knock-Down.
If you can, I'd say you'd have to get rid of the Scatter first as normal for GLs. Any successes beyond negating the Scatter would then count as successes as normal in a ranged attack test. Represents the inherent inaccuracy of a weapon like an UB GL.
There's no such thing as C-8 in the rules, nor IRL. To open a 1-meter diameter hole in a rating 32 Barrier, you need 63 Power assuming you score at least 1 success on a Demolitions (2) Test -- pp. 119&124, SR3. That's 27.5625kg of C-12 or 110.25kg of C-4 with 1 success. 26.7kg of C-12, 106.8kg of C-4 if you're confident you get 2 successes. In general, you need ((Required Power)/(Explosive Rating))^2 kilograms of an explosive for anything. Refer to the table on p. 124 of SR3 to see what kind of effect you want and how much Power you need for that, and keep the rules on p. 119 of SR3 in mind. |
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May 5 2004, 05:43 AM
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#5
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
You're probably thinking of Splinter Cell. Sorry, but in real life, 40mms are pretty noisy. Not gunshot noisy, but noisy. [edit]
Good lord. Something is very wrong with the demolitions rules. Or maybe it's the barrier ratings. I don't know. |
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May 5 2004, 05:50 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 673 Joined: 30-March 04 Member No.: 6,206 |
Misread the roman numerals of the explosives in SR3 :D Hey, it happens.
Yeah, I'm thinking of splinter cell. Fisher's rifle was what inspired my character, infiltration and all that. Is it possible to get a silent/silenced UB GL? Edit: Jeebus, I might as well ram a truckload of explosives into the target building. |
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May 5 2004, 05:51 AM
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#7
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Are you sure you need 63? That seems like an odd number... one less than twice the barrier rating?
~J |
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May 5 2004, 05:53 AM
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#8
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The main problem there is that successes on the Demolitions (2) test simply add +1 Power. When you're going for 64 modifier Power, +1 doesn't mean shit. I addressed this back when you were asking about explosion/demolitions rule in that one thread, when I suggested adding a fraction (such as 1/4th) of the unmodified Power per success. The rather low rating of 6 for C-4 plays some part too, although, heck, you'd need 441kg of TNT for the same results.
Barrier Rating 32 is pretty darn tough, too. We're probably talking a meter or two of reinforced concrete and a few inches of armor-grade steel on the inside just to be sure. Or just 20-30 inches of armor-grade steel. |
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May 5 2004, 05:55 AM
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#9
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Not absolute sure, but pretty sure. You need 1 success to go against unmodified Barrier Rating instead of 2x Barrier Rating. That one success on the Demolitions test already provides +1 to Power, which brings it up to 64. The table on p. 124 doesn't say "or fraction thereof", so I assume you need 1.5x effective Barrier Rating to get a 0.5-meter diameter hole and 2x effective Barrier Rating for a 1-meter diameter hole. |
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May 5 2004, 06:02 AM
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#10
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I... guess. Seriously, the size of such a suppressor would be completely unmanagable. Hell, it'd cover up the muzzle of the gun, too, so not only is your assault rifle a hell of a lot bigger and hard to move— it can't even be fired. There no way to do it practically. Far better to just load up on gel rounds. Besides, even in real life, there are far better nonlethal platforms than 40mm. The guns of Splinter Cell were probably its most unrealistic element.
Hi, Department of Homeland Security! :wavey: |
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May 5 2004, 06:04 AM
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#11
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Meh, I did the vehicle-ramming thing back in 2000. I predate DHS, and [insert deity here] willing, I will postdate it too.
~J |
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May 5 2004, 06:08 AM
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#12
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
It'd certainly be bulky. We're talking about a few-inch increase in length and maybe 1-inch increase in diameter of most of the Grenade Launcher. And it might not be very effective, either, because there's a 2-4cm hole in the end and the suppressor wouldn't be very long. Depending on the setup of the weapon, it wouldn't have to block the muzzle of the assault rifle. But it would certainly make the gun hard to maneuver. So just get the Ares Predator with Gel rounds and a suppressor ("Silencer"). [Edit]With all the carbombing and airplanehijacking threads that have existed here, DoHS should have stopped watching us by now. Either that, or they're wasting a shitload of resources. Wouldn't be a first, I guess...[/Edit] |
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May 5 2004, 06:08 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 117 Joined: 29-April 04 Member No.: 6,291 |
As appealing as your character thudding a solid heavy round into someone's face is, gel rounds are usually the best way to go about quietly incapacitating a target. And you can silence them, and call shot: heads, which really screws up the whole double impact jazz.
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May 5 2004, 08:32 AM
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#14
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
@I Eat Time,
I don't know how Gel Rounds are quiet. How is the noise of a firing a gel round different from firing a slug round? How is the noise of a gel round hitting a head quieter than a 22-cal bullet bouncing around inside a skull? |
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May 5 2004, 08:40 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 673 Joined: 30-March 04 Member No.: 6,206 |
I think he means that in regards to knocking out a target with a firearm, gel rounds are best because they are as silent as other slug payloads. (according to the rules, I guess. I don't see any quietness modifier).
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May 5 2004, 09:02 AM
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#16
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
No. No! NOOOOOOooooo! .22 bullets don't bounce around inside a skull. The best it could do is go an extra inch inside the skull because it doesn't have the energy to penetrate the skull again at an angle. Bullets in general do not bounce inside a body. Pitifully weak little bullets like what you get from a .22LR might not go directly through everything it encounters, instead they'll either squash against hard objects or slow down a lot and change direction if they come at an angle. (Nothing personal, that's just a particularly disturbing and hard-to-kill rumor about .22s.) I Eat Time said "you can silence them". As opposed to Grenade Launcher rounds, when GLs cannot be suppressed. In that regard, Gel rounds are "quiet". |
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May 5 2004, 09:05 AM
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#17
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
I'd say yes to buying dud grenades. They're probably more useful to confuse the enemy than shoot them in the head with though.
IE: *Sound of grenade from underbarrel launcher* *tink* *everyone dives for cover* *pause* *more pause* ... |
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May 5 2004, 09:20 AM
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#18
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
@Austere Emancipator,
Over time, I'll probably present every gun rumor that's passed around the internet. Thanks for the correction. |
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May 5 2004, 10:25 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 665 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,834 |
You can buy empty splash grenades, I suppose filling one of those with sand or maybe molten lead would create the sort of thing you want. Don't know how a GM would rule on how you would fire it though, it might be bad for a grenade launcher to try to shoot something that weighs 5x more than a normal grenade.
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May 5 2004, 10:27 AM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Too heavy. If you want to do damage with a low-velocity grenade launcher, you'll have to go for much lighter grenades than normal. A full-lead round would practically drop out of the barrel. |
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May 5 2004, 04:02 PM
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#21
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Confetti grenades. :D
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May 5 2004, 04:12 PM
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#22
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Noise maker's...
*Thump *Tink-tink-tink *Farting noise *truly stunned guards looking around |
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May 6 2004, 12:43 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
For any of you who play AA, maybe you've encountered the dud grenade, where the player hits "Drop Weapon" instead of "Fire" with a frag. Scared the hell out of me the first time...
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May 6 2004, 11:10 AM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I've managed 2 kills with dud 40mm grenades in that game, though. At least once against a full-health guy on a headshot, even.
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May 6 2004, 01:24 PM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 10-February 04 From: Hengelo Netherlands Member No.: 6,067 |
if you want to go through a 32 barrier rating, a sportscar is also usefull:
drive it through the wall with 400 km/hour ... according to the rules this punches a hole in a rating that high. |
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