How obvious is a EVO HEL suit? Options

[FuelDrop]

I was considering using an EVO HEL suit underneath normal clothing as a kind of high-end FFBA. Would that work? The text says it's thin, light and tight-fitting, so would it show up under normal clothing?

[Umidori]

The HEL suit is essentially a kind of space activity suit. Although they're certainly "thin" compared to a full space suit, they're still reasonably thick - certainly as thick as heavy clothing would be.

In theory you could conceal a HEL suit under other, larger, heavier garments like a big heavy coat with a hood and baggy pants, but if you're planning to wear it under a business suit, or under a T-shirt and jeans, I'd say that'd be taking things too far.

Also remember that the HEL suit covers everything except your face, meaning to go unnoticed you'd also have to cover up your hands somehow, and at that point you'd essentially be wearing gloves on top of gloves - which I would personally rule would impose a negative modifer to relevant Agility tests. There's also the question of how the suit handles feet - it doesn't say whether the systems come with integrated "boots" (or maybe more like socks?) or if they use a separate pair of "shoes" that are specially designed to connect to the rest of the suit modularly, or what.

Overall, I would say it's a pretty obvious piece of gear. You'd need to completely conceal it to avoid people noticing that you're wearing it, and even then people will probably be suspicious of the sort of gear you'd need to be wearing to be able to conceal it.

~Umi

[Shortstraw]

The MIT Bio suit looks quite thin and is skin tight so if you get your suit tailored to your measurements with it on I don't see the problem.

[FuelDrop]

The MIT Bio suit looks quite thin and is skin tight so if you get your suit tailored to your measurements with it on I don't see the problem.

It is custom fit...

[Shortstraw]

I meant the suit over the HEL suit.

[KarmaInferno]

I have a character that wears a suit over a HEL suit.

Okay. It's a Mobile Suit Human over a pixie sized HEL suit, but still.

Do you know how hard it is to get HEL suits in pixie size?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)




-k

[Umidori]

Hard as HEL?

*puts a nickel in the Bad Pun Jar*

~Umi

[Shortstraw]

Don't shortchange the jar.

[Neraph]

The HEL suit is essentially a kind of space activity suit. Although they're certainly "thin" compared to a full space suit, they're still reasonably thick - certainly as thick as heavy clothing would be.

In theory you could conceal a HEL suit under other, larger, heavier garments like a big heavy coat with a hood and baggy pants, but if you're planning to wear it under a business suit, or under a T-shirt and jeans, I'd say that'd be taking things too far.

Also remember that the HEL suit covers everything except your face, meaning to go unnoticed you'd also have to cover up your hands somehow, and at that point you'd essentially be wearing gloves on top of gloves - which I would personally rule would impose a negative modifer to relevant Agility tests. There's also the question of how the suit handles feet - it doesn't say whether the systems come with integrated "boots" (or maybe more like socks?) or if they use a separate pair of "shoes" that are specially designed to connect to the rest of the suit modularly, or what.

Overall, I would say it's a pretty obvious piece of gear. You'd need to completely conceal it to avoid people noticing that you're wearing it, and even then people will probably be suspicious of the sort of gear you'd need to be wearing to be able to conceal it.

~Umi

The HEL suit has a hood that can be brought down.

The HEL suit shouldn't be treated much differently than FFBA or an Armored Vest. I have no problem with it being worn under other clothing (sweatshirt, pants, workboots, AR Gloves would cover everything completely if you have both hoods down).

[Umidori]

The thing is, if you wear FFBA that covers yours entire body including your hands and feet, then if you want to conceal it you need to cover up those areas again. Which is one of the reasons why I never get the Full Body version of FFBA.

It's not impossible to conceal, it's just that it requires wearing gloves on top of gloves, which realistically should impose negative consequences for tasks requiring fine control. I'd treat it as requiring Agility tests for otherwise auto-success tasks like picking up a coin (akin to how things work with the Magic Hands spell or a Prehensile Tail).

As for lowering your "hood" - I rule that while it's down you're reducing your armor coverage and take a hit to the item's armor rating. Just a point a or two, but still. You can put it up when you need it, but that takes an action which you might not want to take in the heat of battle.

Oh, while we're on the topic of armor ratings, if you do choose to wear an HEL with something over top of it, remember that you only get the protection of the higher value armor, while suffering full combined Encumbrance. It isn't FFBA, mechanically it just doesn't "stack" with other gear.

So there's not much point in wearing it underneath a suit unless for some reason you really would rather have 4/6 wearing it and "Clothing" overtop, instead of the 6/4 you can get from the various Armored Suits available in Arsenal (which don't require you to wear gloves, which can be something of a social faux pas).

Or if you combine the two, you can get 6/6 armor with the Encumbrance of a suit of 10/10, which might be worth it if you have 5 or more Body. Although at that point you might as well just get an Armor Vest (6/4), modify it with Gel Packs (+1/+1), and wear some actual FFBA underneath it (+4/+1), for a net effect of 11/6 treated as 9/6 for Encumbrance.

~Umi

[KarmaInferno]

The HEL suit has the 'Custom Fit' quality, so in theory depending on you you read the rules, it may be able to combine with one other piece with the 'Custom Fit (Stack)' quality.

The rules for that seem a bit fuzzy though. Is the "maker" the manufacturer, or the armorer doing the custom fitting?



-k

[Umidori]

I think what that is trying to convey is that an HEL suit cannot be worn "off-the-rack" and absolutely must be custom fitted.

Custom Fit just means you can't wear that particular item "Used" without having it altered to fit the new wearer (and the new wearer has to be within certain minimums of difference in build). Consequently if you Neurostun some Corporate Space-Schlub and try to steal his HEL suit, it simply won't fit you properly.

My basis for this assumption is that 4E described the HEL this way, requiring custom fitting. To be honest, I was actually unaware that they had brought it back in R&G for 5E, but I think the intention is still the same. Unless it is specifically listed as being able to "Stack", then it doesn't.

~Umi

[Stingray]

The thing is, if you wear FFBA that covers yours entire body including your hands and feet, then if you want to conceal it you need to cover up those areas again. Which is one of the reasons why I never get the Full Body version of FFBA.

It's not impossible to conceal, it's just that it requires wearing gloves on top of gloves, which realistically should impose negative consequences for tasks requiring fine control. I'd treat it as requiring Agility tests for otherwise auto-success tasks like picking up a coin (akin to how things work with the Magic Hands spell or a Prehensile Tail).

As for lowering your "hood" - I rule that while it's down you're reducing your armor coverage and take a hit to the item's armor rating. Just a point a or two, but still. You can put it up when you need it, but that takes an action which you might not want to take in the heat of battle.

Oh, while we're on the topic of armor ratings, if you do choose to wear an HEL with something over top of it, remember that you only get the protection of the higher value armor, while suffering full combined Encumbrance. It isn't FFBA, mechanically it just doesn't "stack" with other gear.

So there's not much point in wearing it underneath a suit unless for some reason you really would rather have 4/6 wearing it and "Clothing" overtop, instead of the 6/4 you can get from the various Armored Suits available in Arsenal (which don't require you to wear gloves, which can be something of a social faux pas).

Or if you combine the two, you can get 6/6 armor with the Encumbrance of a suit of 10/10, which might be worth it if you have 5 or more Body. Although at that point you might as well just get an Armor Vest (6/4), modify it with Gel Packs (+1/+1), and wear some actual FFBA underneath it (+4/+1), for a net effect of 11/6 treated as 9/6 for Encumbrance.

~Umi

..Gloves,booties, and hood are optional in Full FFBA..so business suit would conceal it nicely..

[Neraph]

The thing is, if you wear FFBA that covers yours entire body including your hands and feet, then if you want to conceal it you need to cover up those areas again. Which is one of the reasons why I never get the Full Body version of FFBA.

So there's not much point in wearing it underneath a suit unless for some reason you really would rather have 4/6 wearing it and "Clothing" overtop, instead of the 6/4 you can get from the various Armored Suits available in Arsenal (which don't require you to wear gloves, which can be something of a social faux pas).

Cyberpunk 2070's version of Nazgul is why.

[Ixal]

I know that is not modeled by the rules, but I would be more concerned with concealing the noise a HEL suite makes.
At least the linked space activity suite doesn't look like moving in it will be quiet.

[Neraph]

With the prevalence of latex in cyberpunk I don't think that'd be an issue.

[Umidori]

..Gloves,booties, and hood are optional in Full FFBA..so business suit would conceal it nicely..

Not in SR4 they aren't. Did they change it for SR5 in Run and Gun? Because that's pretty stupid if so.

~Umi

[Ixal]

Not in SR4 they aren't. Did they change it for SR5 in Run and Gun? Because that's pretty stupid if so.

~Umi

FFBA, at least in SR5, is one specific type of armor made for concealability while still offering higher protection than armored suits. They must be made custom fit and never include gloves, shoes or a helmet (as per description) even as full suit because then it wouldn't be easily concealable any more in the situations the FFBA has been designed for.
I don't see how the FFBA has to do anything with the HEL suit. The only thing they share is that they both need to be custom fit.

[Umidori]

FFBA, at least in SR5, is one specific type of armor made for concealability while still offering higher protection than armored suits. They must be made custom fit and never include gloves, shoes or a helmet (as per description) even as full suit because then it wouldn't be easily concealable any more in the situations the FFBA has been designed for.

I'm not sure how to read this particular bolded part, because you phrased it ambiguously.

Are you saying that Run and Gun specifically states that the FFBA does not include gloves, shoes, or a helmet? Or are you saying that Run and Gun specifically states that the FFBA does include them (as it did in Arsenal for 4E), but that you believe they are counter-intuitive from a concealability standpoint? I just can't have linguistic certainty of what "as per description" is referring to in your post as written.

I don't see how the FFBA has to do anything with the HEL suit. The only thing they share is that they both need to be custom fit.

The original topic of the thread was using a HEL as a sort of FFBA, and the fact that that wouldn't actually work has already been discussed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

[Ixal]

I'm not sure how to read this particular bolded part, because you phrased it ambiguously.

Are you saying that Run and Gun specifically states that the FFBA does not include gloves, shoes, or a helmet? Or are you saying that Run and Gun specifically states that the FFBA does include them (as it did in Arsenal for 4E), but that you believe they are counter-intuitive from a concealability standpoint? I just can't have linguistic certainty of what "as per description" is referring to in your post as written.


The original topic of the thread was using a HEL as a sort of FFBA, and the fact that that wouldn't actually work has already been discussed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

The basic piece of armor is a shirt, covering the body from collarbone to groin, protecting the vital organs, while the full suit adds protection for the limbs. In either case, the hands, feet, and head are left exposed, as covering them gives away the fact that armor is being worn

[Neraph]

Right, the basic FFBA is like that. The Full Suit is not the Basic FFBA, however.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Right, the basic FFBA is like that. The Full Suit is not the Basic FFBA, however.

Except that the Full Suit in Run and Gun DOES NOT INLCUDE Booties, Gloves or Hood (Torso, Arms and Legs only). Right there in the Description. It is NOT a Ninja Suit anymore. It is discreet armor. Gloves and Hood give it away as discreet armor.

[Mäx]

Yeah one of the few good things in R&G is that full FFBA actually makes sense now.

[KarmaInferno]

I think what that is trying to convey is that an HEL suit cannot be worn "off-the-rack" and absolutely must be custom fitted.

Custom Fit just means you can't wear that particular item "Used" without having it altered to fit the new wearer (and the new wearer has to be within certain minimums of difference in build). Consequently if you Neurostun some Corporate Space-Schlub and try to steal his HEL suit, it simply won't fit you properly.

My basis for this assumption is that 4E described the HEL this way, requiring custom fitting. To be honest, I was actually unaware that they had brought it back in R&G for 5E, but I think the intention is still the same. Unless it is specifically listed as being able to "Stack", then it doesn't.

~Umi

The 'Custom Fit (Stack)' rules DO specifically list as being able to stack. That is the main purpose of that armor quality. Any armor that quality stacks with any one other armor that possesses the 'Custom Fit' quality as long as they are custom fitted to the user by the maker at the same time.

The only part of the rule that is unclear is whether "maker" means the manufacturer, or the armorer doing the custom fitting. Manufacturer makes more sense to the word "maker", but the description of the stacking process makes it sound like they are talking about the guy doing the fitting.

Worst case scenario, the Evo HEL suit should stack with any EVO armor that has the Custom Fit (Stack) quality. Which, admittedly, I cannot find any examples so far in the 5E published material. But if such an armor comes out it should stack.

If maker is meant to mean the armorer doing the custom fitting, then potentially ANY of the Custom Fit (Stack) armor will work. It is not too powergamey yet, though - the highest stack value so far is 3,






-k

[Ixal]

As I understand it custom fit (stack) on an armor must be done at the same time the other armor is custom fitted to you, so it would be the armorer (or sales rep, etc). An Evo sales rep will of course only custom fit other Evo armor together with the HEL suite, but if it is possible to get it done by a independent vendor it might be possible to mix manufacturers.

And while not in the rules, I would not allow you to use custom fit armor (or the least the custom fit property) when you are wearing a stack armor without the armor it was designed to fit on top of.