Astral Hazing - final statement Options

[Neraph]

Always beware the unseen Intelligence Agent. He will generally have your number. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The point still stands: you need to suspect him first. Then you need to ID him. Then you need to target him. Then you need to hit.

Too many variables, especially concerning the way he is played. Theoretically possible, but not likely concerning the actual character in question.

[Stahlseele]

can't believe nobody said it yet:
Astral Hazing:
What all magic groups put their new members through to prove they are worthy of being allowed into their Fraternity.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

can't believe nobody said it yet:
Astral Hazing:
What all magic groups put their new members through to prove they are worthy of being allowed into their Fraternity.

Yep - And it sucks royally. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Sendaz]

Always beware the unseen Intelligence Agent. He will generally have your number. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If I was using a biological agent to call in coordinates for a Thor shot on an infected that can co-opt others I would be more concerned about said biological being compromised and sending the shot astray.

Which is why you should always say it with Drones if push comes to shove.

Although sometimes it's better to find a mutually beneficial arrangement for both sides and avoid those costly fights.

[toturi]

Always beware the unseen Intelligence Agent. He will generally have your number. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Always beware Divination. A really good diviner has already fore-seen your "unseen" Intelligence Agent.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Always beware Divination. A really good diviner has already fore-seen your "unseen" Intelligence Agent.

Has he forseen all contingencies? I doubt it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[toturi]

Has he forseen all contingencies? I doubt it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Do not doubt. He has foreseen all contingencies that will adversely affect him severely. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Novocrane]

It is not explicitly stated in the RAW. But the Background Count rule read as a whole do imply that the trail of astral corruption can happen.

Domains also remain permanent at least until the source of domain is removed (such as the toxic waste producing a toxic domain). Even then, many domains persist until formally cleansed, while others take decades to become neutral.

Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, the character always stands at the heart of a Rating 4 background count

In areas of positive background count, the accumulated excess mana [...] is referred to as its aspect. Regions of aspected background count are called domains.

Rating 1: These domains include areas where the emotional impact was significant but brief or areas that are of minor spiritual or magical significance.
Rating 2: These domains are generated by the emotional impact of a great number of people or by a steady emotional, spiritual or magical influence over a long period of time.
Rating 3: These domains are created by a significant event in the recent past (usually within the last century). The event may be long over, but the area still reflects the event in some way.
Rating 4: These domains were not only the site of a significant event, but also still experience that event or something similar on an irregular basis.

I'm inclined to believe that while you may not leave a consistent trail of a Rating 4 'Astral Haze' Domain of 'eff you awakened' everywhere you go, unless you're constantly scrubbing your astral you're going to leave something behind as you go, and more so when you stop moving. Astral Hazing is a negative quality, through and through.

[Stahlseele]

think of it this way:
4 is only one point more than, if even that, what you will get on a good rock concert.
rating 1 will be found everywhere in every last single point of any city on the planet.
and probably outside of the cities as well.
if it isn't cleansed on a regular basis at least.
rating 2 will be created by murder, rating 3 by a particularly gruesome one for example.
but things like that are not all that creates bgc. hope,love,, happyness, SEX all do it too.
if the emotions are strong enough/often enough repeated/shared by enough people.
technically, almost no awakened activity can be found in the seattle subway system.
because most awakened don't have the full magic attribute, but only 2 to 4 points in it.
and the BGC is strong enough anywhere to hamper them and strong enough very often to completely shut them down.

now, ask yourself one question:
how often have we seen this in game, used by a GM?
if you say "not at all, because that'd be mean to all these awakened snobs being played", then that's probably true for about 80to 90% of the people playing.
and in the same sentence, everybody complains about how there's electronic surveilance out to get every last weapon and piece of cyberware on any non awakaned character.

[Neraph]

I'm inclined to believe that while you may not leave a consistent trail of a Rating 4 'Astral Haze' Domain of 'eff you awakened' everywhere you go, unless you're constantly scrubbing your astral you're going to leave something behind as you go, and more so when you stop moving. Astral Hazing is a negative quality, through and through.

No. The Hazing itself looks like that but there is absolutely nothing about leaving a trail, otherwise there would be some sort of rule for a gradual BC ebbing while you're moving.

[Novocrane]

No. The Hazing itself looks like that but there is absolutely nothing about leaving a trail, otherwise there would be some sort of rule for a gradual BC ebbing while you're moving.

Besides a wonderfully emphatic no, how else are you supporting that? And if we're going on what it doesn't say in RC, what else does Astral Hazing's domain not do? There's a lot that isn't mentioned there.

I'm assuming you're expecting something akin to the cyberzombie astral hazing entry to support 'ebbing'. There's at least one option that you haven't covered if so. That it does not ebb.

many domains persist until formally cleansed, while others take decades to become neutral

[Sendaz]

And here is where it gets fun because they came up with a bad ass 'power', granted a bit of a negative one, but didn't really follow through on its effects in the long term.

If you stay in the area for a few hours that BC you are generating expands by 1 meter in all directions (pg 116 Runner Comp) so when you leave that said area it doesn't specify how fast that extra zone you created outside of your aura dissipates at if at all. So again we have RAW not following through. I would just let it fade at the same rate it built at so after a few hours it would reduce by 1 meter again and so on until it clears, but I suppose one could argue it might always have a minimal BC, but this will quickly lead to all sorts of headaches and added bookkeeping tracking who went where and for how long. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

think of it this way:
4 is only one point more than, if even that, what you will get on a good rock concert.
rating 1 will be found everywhere in every last single point of any city on the planet.
and probably outside of the cities as well.
if it isn't cleansed on a regular basis at least.
rating 2 will be created by murder, rating 3 by a particularly gruesome one for example.
but things like that are not all that creates bgc. hope,love,, happyness, SEX all do it too.
if the emotions are strong enough/often enough repeated/shared by enough people.
technically, almost no awakened activity can be found in the seattle subway system.
because most awakened don't have the full magic attribute, but only 2 to 4 points in it.
and the BGC is strong enough anywhere to hamper them and strong enough very often to completely shut them down.

now, ask yourself one question:
how often have we seen this in game, used by a GM?
if you say "not at all, because that'd be mean to all these awakened snobs being played", then that's probably true for about 80to 90% of the people playing.
and in the same sentence, everybody complains about how there's electronic surveilance out to get every last weapon and piece of cyberware on any non awakaned character.

OFTEN... SO Often, in fact, that I routinely build Awakwened characters to be able to deal with a Rating 2 BGC as a matter of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Glyph]

think of it this way:
4 is only one point more than, if even that, what you will get on a good rock concert.
rating 1 will be found everywhere in every last single point of any city on the planet.
and probably outside of the cities as well.
if it isn't cleansed on a regular basis at least.
rating 2 will be created by murder, rating 3 by a particularly gruesome one for example.
but things like that are not all that creates bgc. hope,love,, happyness, SEX all do it too.
if the emotions are strong enough/often enough repeated/shared by enough people.
technically, almost no awakened activity can be found in the seattle subway system.
because most awakened don't have the full magic attribute, but only 2 to 4 points in it.
and the BGC is strong enough anywhere to hamper them and strong enough very often to completely shut them down.

now, ask yourself one question:
how often have we seen this in game, used by a GM?
if you say "not at all, because that'd be mean to all these awakened snobs being played", then that's probably true for about 80to 90% of the people playing.
and in the same sentence, everybody complains about how there's electronic surveilance out to get every last weapon and piece of cyberware on any non awakaned character.

Background count and the everpresent surveillance society are both things that, if over-emphasized, make the game all but unplayable.

Looking at the sidebar on page 121 of Street Magic, even a rating: 1 background count should be either a significant act of high emotion (mass shooting, tragic love affair, etc.) or regular magical or spiritual significance. Rating: 2 was the rock concert example, but it was a sold-out concert of a legendary artist - in other words, Woodstock, not the latest Miley Cyrus concert.

[Stahlseele]

Miley Cyrus

i said a good rock concert for a reason <.<

[Neraph]

Besides a wonderfully emphatic no, how else are you supporting that? And if we're going on what it doesn't say in RC, what else does Astral Hazing's domain not do? There's a lot that isn't mentioned there.

I'm assuming you're expecting something akin to the cyberzombie astral hazing entry to support 'ebbing'. There's at least one option that you haven't covered if so. That it does not ebb.

Well, considering that there are absolutely not rules supporting the fact that you leave a massive trail of astral debris behind you, I'd say that pretty much answers it. In a game of rules you are only allowed to do what it explicitly tells you, and tracking someone from an astral trail of destruction from Astral Hazing is not one of those things. It also actually goes against the rules: it specifically states that the Hazing extends a certain distance from the origin. There is absolutely no mention of a blur, stain, or streak. If it is around me and I move 500 feet north then the Hazing is now 500 feet north and no longer where I was previously, with no rules whatsoever to state that somehow there would be some smear on the astral landscape.

EDIT: The best analogy I'd have is a windstorm. Your character is in the heart of a windstorm. Any structures weak enough to be destroyed (wards, Anchored spells, spirits) would be destroyed by your passing, but when you pass the surrounding environment shows no permanent stain of its passage. You can infer its passage through a debris field, but not because of any inherent change it makes to the environment (as would an oil spill).

[Machiavelli]

I see it the same way. Of course the GM can abstact the detachment of areas of BC if he wants to, but the GM can do what he want anyway. So what?^^

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, considering that there are absolutely not rules supporting the fact that you leave a massive trail of astral debris behind you, I'd say that pretty much answers it. In a game of rules you are only allowed to do what it explicitly tells you, and tracking someone from an astral trail of destruction from Astral Hazing is not one of those things. It also actually goes against the rules: it specifically states that the Hazing extends a certain distance from the origin. There is absolutely no mention of a blur, stain, or streak. If it is around me and I move 500 feet north then the Hazing is now 500 feet north and no longer where I was previously, with no rules whatsoever to state that somehow there would be some smear on the astral landscape.

EDIT: The best analogy I'd have is a windstorm. Your character is in the heart of a windstorm. Any structures weak enough to be destroyed (wards, Anchored spells, spirits) would be destroyed by your passing, but when you pass the surrounding environment shows no permanent stain of its passage. You can infer its passage through a debris field, but not because of any inherent change it makes to the environment (as would an oil spill).

Really? You have never seen passing damage to the environment from a windstorm, easy enough to track if you had the skillset? Odd, I see it all the time here in Denver. *shrug*

[Draco18s]

EDIT: The best analogy I'd have is a windstorm. Your character is in the heart of a windstorm. Any structures weak enough to be destroyed (wards, Anchored spells, spirits) would be destroyed by your passing, but when you pass the surrounding environment shows no permanent stain of its passage. You can infer its passage through a debris field, but not because of any inherent change it makes to the environment (as would an oil spill).

Really? You have never seen passing damage to the environment from a windstorm, easy enough to track if you had the skillset? Odd, I see it all the time here in Denver. *shrug*

Cough.

Of course, the wind itself isn't there any more, but something happened...

[Neraph]

Really? You have never seen passing damage to the environment from a windstorm, easy enough to track if you had the skillset? Odd, I see it all the time here in Denver. *shrug*

Yes, but only since every blade of grass and every tree is the equivalent of a ward or anchored spell.

Try tracking a windstorm on tarmac.

[Rubic]

Street Magic, p. 55, under the Cleansing metamagic (emphasis added):

"An area’s natural background count will reassert itself (minus temporary traces) after (Initiate grade) hours. For cleansing of background count to be permanent, the cause or phenomenon behind it must first be removed. Cleansing the astral space in a toxic waste dump is futile until the waste itself is removed. Cleansing also proves ineffective on well-established and powerful background counts (such as those at Hiroshima, Stonehenge, or even an old community church). Whether a particular background can be cleansed or not is left to the individual gamemaster."

So, not the most obvious of places to have rules about background counts, but it works to establish fundamental metaphysics that would cover such a situation as the source of the Hazing having moved.

[Neraph]

Street Magic, p. 55, under the Cleansing metamagic (emphasis added):

"An area’s natural background count will reassert itself (minus temporary traces) after (Initiate grade) hours. For cleansing of background count to be permanent, the cause or phenomenon behind it must first be removed. Cleansing the astral space in a toxic waste dump is futile until the waste itself is removed. Cleansing also proves ineffective on well-established and powerful background counts (such as those at Hiroshima, Stonehenge, or even an old community church). Whether a particular background can be cleansed or not is left to the individual gamemaster."

So, not the most obvious of places to have rules about background counts, but it works to establish fundamental metaphysics that would cover such a situation as the source of the Hazing having moved.

No, because that's dealing with reducing the BC of a specific area, not the BC of an area fading over time or even if it does fade over time. This would only be appropriate if someone tried to Cleanse the Astral Hazing directly - it has nothing to do with someone with Astral Hazing taking a taxi across the city.

[X-Kalibur]

Which adds another question - can someone attempt to cleanse your astral hazing? Would it even work?

[Rubic]

No, because that's dealing with reducing the BC of a specific area, not the BC of an area fading over time or even if it does fade over time. This would only be appropriate if someone tried to Cleanse the Astral Hazing directly - it has nothing to do with someone with Astral Hazing taking a taxi across the city.

I don't see how it DOESN'T apply; it indicates the natural process of an area to re-align its own background count.

Now, granted, you may consider the Astral Hazing to be an area aligned to Toxic traditions. So, you could choose Astral Hazing and a Toxic Shaman to benefit from the harmful BC. This also means you've got a default bounty on your head (courtesy of the Draco Foundation), and just because somebody else is ALSO a Toxic Shaman doesn't mean they're Toxic in a complimentary way. They'd be just as likely to kill you as to hire you, and you're just going to be using each other at that point. Frankly, I wouldn't allow that for player characters, and might implement it as a special-case NPC adversary.

[toturi]

I don't see how it DOESN'T apply; it indicates the natural process of an area to re-align its own background count.

Even if we do take that line under Cleansing to be the mechanics on the process of an area realigning to its natural BC, then all it takes is 0 hours to realign to the natural BC since there is no Cleansing involved and thus no initiate or initiate grade and thus it is a moot point.