So, let's talk about Trolls. Options

[Jaid]

Plus, they clearly state that they use your natural maximum as a limit for customization. This means when you use that arm or leg, it is treated as it's own part and not subject to... whatever he's coming up with.

1) they actually use your racial maximum, not your personal maximum. this is potentially important if you have a higher or lower maximum than is standard for your race. this is not explictly stated to allow you to exceed your personal maximum, but even if your personal maximum is less than your racial maximum you still benefit from cheaper bonuses that don't take up capacity, so it's still a useful benefit even under his interpretation

2) it's pretty clearly an augmentation, and doesn't explicitly allow you to ignore the augmentation cap, something which really should have been mentioned if it's intended to let you over-augment (just like the wireless reflexes and reaction enhancer combination is explicitly stated)

not saying i don't believe it's possible they intended it to work differently from what he's saying, but i am saying he's completely within reason to interpret it the way he interprets it.

[X-Kalibur]

1) sorry, racial max, although nothing currently allows us to raise or lower our attribute caps.

2) Yes, it's an augmentation, but you cannot possibly clear your augmented max (racial max +4) and the rules for them state they cannot benefit from any enhancement that does not take up capacity. Hence the highest any limb can go is racial max + 3 in strength or agility.

They also have their own rules for being used in tests separate from the rest of your (possibly meat) limbs.

[RHat]

1) sorry, racial max, although nothing currently allows us to raise or lower our attribute caps.

Exceptional Attribute.

And on another note: Cyberlimbs are an augmentation, sure, but they do not take the form "Your Attribute + X", and the sole limit on augmentations is that the X in that form cannot exceed 4. Thus, bonus that don't take that form are not subject to that limit, flat out.

[Glyph]

The deal with cyberlimbs is that they have their own Attributes. I understand Cain's philosophy of caution, but this is more than merely one of those "the rules don't say you can't..." powergamer loopholes. It is an equally valid interpretation of the rules that has support in both the text for cyberlimbs, and in the one example of a character with tricked-out cyberarms.

But even if you use Cain's interpretation, you can still have a troll with 2 Agility boosted to 6, and then have plenty of capacity for things like armor, gyromounts, and cyberweapons. So cyberlimbs remain useful (the troll tank archetype, with its pitiful Agility of 2, could certainly use a pair of them).

[tjn]

It also explicitly says: "but at no point can augmentations exceed the +4 bonus cap." As in, at no point can any augment cause an attribute to exceed your natural attribute (which is explicitly defined earlier as the attribute raised by karma, an attribute that a cyberlimb user still has), by more than four.

Both readings are valid, however, I find assuming that cyberlimbs are the one exception to this rule without any specific wording to that effect - like that of the wireless bonus on Reaction Enhancers/Wired Reflexes - and based solely on the fact that the bonus cyberlimbs give to attributes are not in the same exact format as the other augmentation bonuses, a pedantic interpretation that violates the spirit of the rule, and thus has a major flaw when compared to the other, just as valid, interpretation. Play however you wish at your table, but asserting that there is no other interpretation and that RAW is clear, is rather pigheaded.

[RHat]

It also explicitly says: "but at no point can augmentations exceed the +4 bonus cap." As in, at no point can any augment cause an attribute to exceed your natural attribute (which is explicitly defined earlier as the attribute raised by karma, an attribute that a cyberlimb user still has), by more than four.

Which is fine, because cyberlimbs don't do any of that - they have no interaction with your attributes, and quite specifically and importantly they do not take the form "Your Attribute+X". This isn't a matter of not being in the exact same form; the form of the augmentation cap and the form of cyberlimbs are wholly incompatible.

[Glyph]

I said it was an equally valid interpretation of the rules, not that the RAW was clear. Both interpretations have things in the rules that support them.

[RHat]

I said it was an equally valid interpretation of the rules, not that the RAW was clear. Both interpretations have things in the rules that support them.

I don't know - it seems to me the limited interpretation requires elements of the text that simply do not exist.

[Cain]

Which is fine, because cyberlimbs don't do any of that - they have no interaction with your attributes, and quite specifically and importantly they do not take the form "Your Attribute+X". This isn't a matter of not being in the exact same form; the form of the augmentation cap and the form of cyberlimbs are wholly incompatible.

Don't take this the wrong way, but that's a mighty legalistic way of looking at things. I acknowledge that the rules aren't expressly clear, and they can be read both ways, but I don't find tricky wording to be a compelling reason to abandon the most conservative rule. The augmented max is there for a good reason, and since there isn't an explicit exception for them (like there is for Wired + Reaction Enhancers) I tend to assume there isn't one.

[RHat]

Don't take this the wrong way, but that's a mighty legalistic way of looking at things. I acknowledge that the rules aren't expressly clear, and they can be read both ways, but I don't find tricky wording to be a compelling reason to abandon the most conservative rule. The augmented max is there for a good reason, and since there isn't an explicit exception for them (like there is for Wired + Reaction Enhancers) I tend to assume there isn't one.

To be clear, there's no such thing as "augmented max" in SR5, except insofar as it's being extratextually defined.

[Cain]

To be clear, there's no such thing as "augmented max" in SR5, except insofar as it's being extratextually defined.

You're being unnecessarily pedantic. There is a very clear limit on your augmented attributes:

Keep in mind there are three restrictions when it
comes to purchasing gear. First, when purchasing augmentations
such as cyberware and bioware, each attribute
rating (Mental and Physical) can only receive an
augmentation bonus of up to +4. If the attribute being
raised has not reached its natural maximum limit, the
attribute can be raised naturally with Karma; but at no
point can augmentations exceed the +4 bonus cap.

I agree that there are two different places where the rules read two different ways, but it seems counterproductive to argue that one doesn't exist.

[tjn]

Sorry Glyph, it was more of a reaction to the absolutist "not subject to that limit, flat out," and you posted while I was farting around. For what it's worth, I agree with you in that cyberlimbs would remain useful.

RHat - Characters have natural attributes. Cyberlimbs are augments. Cyberlimbs also replace attributes. Thus cyberlimb attributes are augmented attributes.

One interpretation is that all augmented attributes are limited by your natural attribute plus four ratings of bonuses, therefore it applies. The other is that your bonus ratings are limited to four, and since cyberlimbs don't have bonus ratings, it doesn't apply. Both are valid, and it turns on whether or not one considers that augmentation bonus is a "thing," or a short hand reference to the overall limit. If the editing on SR was top notch and that there was multiple passes to get things right, I'd agree... but it doesn't, and there's a lot of bad writing masquerading as colloquialism within the rules.

However, in addition to the problem that that interpretation requires the lack of the mention of the limit somehow implying that the limit doesn't apply, on page 456 customization specifically say that "You can have your cyberlimb tailored and customized to your frame and musculature. " Adjusting a cyberlimb to have a max STR with a dumpstatted natural STR hardly counts as tailoring the cyberlimb to that particular frame and musculature, and if you want to be pedantic, customization is therefore limited to match the character's "frame and musculature," in addition to the natural maximum for the character. Or you could assume that it's a shorthand reference to the character's metaracial type.

[Critias]

The +4 augmented cap applies to Cyberlimbs, but it applies to the cyberlimb's base attribute (not the user's).

[Stahlseele]

So, for a human, maximum attribute for cyberlimbs is then . . 7? I you go with the all 3's joe shmoe average?

[Critias]

So, for a human, maximum attribute for cyberlimbs is then . . 7? I you go with the all 3's joe shmoe average?

No, because when you create a cyberlimb, you can create it with higher-than-average attributes, right out of the box (using "customization"). Then, those attributes can be further increased (using "enhancements").

It's needlessly complicated and a holdover patch from an earlier edition (I don't know why we didn't simplify it for SR5 instead of leaving it a clunky three-step process to figure out a cyberlimb's attributes, base attribute->customization->enhancement)...but that's what it is.

[Sendaz]

Maybe leaving the door open for a splat book on fancier mods and enhancements down the road

[X-Kalibur]

Sorry Glyph, it was more of a reaction to the absolutist "not subject to that limit, flat out," and you posted while I was farting around. For what it's worth, I agree with you in that cyberlimbs would remain useful.

RHat - Characters have natural attributes. Cyberlimbs are augments. Cyberlimbs also replace attributes. Thus cyberlimb attributes are augmented attributes.

One interpretation is that all augmented attributes are limited by your natural attribute plus four ratings of bonuses, therefore it applies. The other is that your bonus ratings are limited to four, and since cyberlimbs don't have bonus ratings, it doesn't apply. Both are valid, and it turns on whether or not one considers that augmentation bonus is a "thing," or a short hand reference to the overall limit. If the editing on SR was top notch and that there was multiple passes to get things right, I'd agree... but it doesn't, and there's a lot of bad writing masquerading as colloquialism within the rules.

However, in addition to the problem that that interpretation requires the lack of the mention of the limit somehow implying that the limit doesn't apply, on page 456 customization specifically say that "You can have your cyberlimb tailored and customized to your frame and musculature. " Adjusting a cyberlimb to have a max STR with a dumpstatted natural STR hardly counts as tailoring the cyberlimb to that particular frame and musculature, and if you want to be pedantic, customization is therefore limited to match the character's "frame and musculature," in addition to the natural maximum for the character. Or you could assume that it's a shorthand reference to the character's metaracial type.

You're mixing the fluff with the crunch. That never works out well. It clearly states that you can tailor them up to your racial maximum, frame and musculature referring more to orks and trolls, who need bigger, beefier limbs.

[Cain]

Critias has the RAI, but the RAW is needlessly confusing, and without an errata it's just a very informed opinion.

Personally, I think the whole book needs a retuning. Finding the attribute cap is a painful process; it's not referenced in the index or ToC, but it is referred to as a rule, all over the place, without a page reference to be had. There's dozens of pages of errata that need to be put out, and even the existing errata needs errata. At this rate, I expect Shadowrun 5.5 to be coming out in a few years, which makes me even less likely to invest in a hardcover. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Glyph]

The weird thing about cyberlimbs is that they are great if you have low Strength/Agility, but compared to muscle replacement or augmentation/toner, they are not quite as good at the uppermost end. Enhancement only goes up to +3, compared to the +4 over your maximum that you can get with augmentation. It just seems a bit off, to me, that a completely synthetic arm is less effective than a natural one with artificial or vat-grown muscle woven into it. But at least cyberlimbs are a viable option now.

[Jaid]

afb, but could've sworn toner and augmentation and replacement all capped out at 3 as well. as far as i can tell, the only way to access that +4 theoretical cap is by magic.

[RHat]

afb, but could've sworn toner and augmentation and replacement all capped out at 3 as well. as far as i can tell, the only way to access that +4 theoretical cap is by magic.

Nope, those go to 4.

[Shinobi Killfist]

The weird thing about cyberlimbs is that they are great if you have low Strength/Agility, but compared to muscle replacement or augmentation/toner, they are not quite as good at the uppermost end. Enhancement only goes up to +3, compared to the +4 over your maximum that you can get with augmentation. It just seems a bit off, to me, that a completely synthetic arm is less effective than a natural one with artificial or vat-grown muscle woven into it. But at least cyberlimbs are a viable option now.

Yeah that bugs me, especially for strength.

[X-Kalibur]

Perhaps they will add back in redlining limbs and make less of a great way to kill yourself.

[Sengir]

It just seems a bit off, to me, that a completely synthetic arm is less effective than a natural one with artificial or vat-grown muscle woven into it. But at least cyberlimbs are a viable option now.

Replacement or augmentation affect the whole body, you could argue that's better than just a single arm...but when going down that line of argument, cyberarm + replacement should be even more effective.

And +1 for redlining

[Shinobi Killfist]

Its been a long time since i played cyberpunk 2020, but weren't there limits to augmentation based on what frame you bought. It made sense to me at the time. Maybe it would be kind of cool if buying something like a titanium skeleton increased the max or allowed redlining with less impact to the character.