So, let's talk about Trolls. Options

[Glyph]

Its been a long time since i played cyberpunk 2020, but weren't there limits to augmentation based on what frame you bought. It made sense to me at the time. Maybe it would be kind of cool if buying something like a titanium skeleton increased the max or allowed redlining with less impact to the character.

That was actually the rule in SR4. You could only get up to +3 in enhancements unless you had a cybertorso.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That was actually the rule in SR4. You could only get up to +3 in enhancements unless you had a cybertorso.

Cyberpunk 2020 was very similar, at least in its first 2 editions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Glyph]

Going through the augmentations, there is one good spot of news for trolls. Anything that gives a dice pool bonus tends to get priced a lot higher (synthcardium, etc.), but bone or skin toughness enhancers are a lot cheaper. If you limit your initiative boosters to wired reflexes: 1, you can make a pretty decent tank at Resources: C, especially if you are willing to take some used stuff.

[Jaid]

yes, but with anything else, you can still make a pretty good tank that is almost exactly as good, and then use the higher priority to also be something else awesome while still being a pretty good tank.

the fact that the troll's specialty is dirt cheap to buy with other resources is bad news for trolls, not good.

[Glyph]

Yeah, it's a mixed blessing, but it's marginally better than the alternative of not having any useful options for Resources: C beyond being a ganger or an unaugmented heavy weapons platform.

Honestly, I don't think trolls being played against type will be as common in SR5. Previous versions of the game were forgiving enough that you could play against type (elven fist-fighting tank, troll fast-talking marksman) and still do okay. But SR5 hits everything with the nerf bat so heavily that you feel like making the most of your meager options, rather than exploring quirky concepts.

[Wakshaani]

On a tangent, I was looking at the cyberlimbs on the other two archetypes. The sprawl ganger has a natural Agility of 4 and Strength of 7 - but he has an unmodified cyberarm, which will have Agility and Strength of 3. Whyyyyy!!???

Because he had his arm removed against his will (say, eaten by a barghest) and instead of being a one-armed man he paid for an off-the-shelf cyberarm because having a weaker arm is better than having no arm at all?

Because Wak -- I'm pretty sure that one was Wak -- wanted to make a down on his luck ganger with a shitty cyberarm (and because he had to make it match the artwork)? I mean, it's just a ganger. They don't always have to make the best decisions, or be sporting the best gear.

This is pretty much it across the board.

The first draft of the archetype was under an earlier ruleset, with resources D and Race C, because I wanted a scrappy street punk who survived by his wits and grit, staying one step ahead of The Man. I wanted to showcase how you could have a cool characetr concept that had no magic, no high tech, no decking... just flesh and blood. He was neat! Not super-powerful, no, but he had combat skill, roughneck style, surprising brains, and some quality social skills. He wasn't supposed to be a generic ganger, but a PC, which means stronger, faster, tougher, BETTER than the norm.

Art for the archetypes came in later, and when it did, our gangbuddy had a funky little cyberarm.

Well, now we have a problem.

I could ignore it and keep the archetype as it was, and people would wonder where the cyberarm was. I mean, it's right *there* in the art, right?
So, that wasn't an option.

Sending the art back for a major change isn't easy, and sometimes isn't possible at all.
But tweaking text is easy.

SO, I rewrote it, fiddling with numbers several times. I could ave given him a much higher resources, tweaked the arm up, tossed in Wired Reflexes, made him essentially a street sam in disguise, but that got away from the core concept and stomped on some toes. Going with Resources even a notch higher drenched me with Nuyen. So, I took a good look at that drekky arm he had and went, "Know what? Idea."

The concept in my head was basicly that he'd been in a gang war, did good, clobbered a bunch of dudes, then some razorboi stepped in and cut his arm off. His lads drug him back to some backalley street doc, pooled their cash together, made some promises of protection, and got their guy the only thing they could afford: A second-hand off the rack cyberarm that was a bit spastic and twitchy. It was chrome, but it was scrawny and didn't even have the right number of fingers, but, well, it's better than being called "Lefty", right?

So, now he's healed up, but he's got this POS arm, and he knows his boys are in debt to some sawbones, so, he hits the shadows. Getting that arm upgraded is probably high on his to-do list. Suddenly backstory! But it's more of a character beat than an archetype beat, so I didn't sit and explain it all. Which makes it look like an odd choice in hindsight. D'oh.

Bit of an old tangant there, but I figured I was here, so might as well talk about it for a sec.

[Medicineman]

good Story , makes Sense and is also an inspiration as a Backgroundstory for one of my own Chars-for-Lent that I give out to needy players at conventions (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Thanks Wakshaani

Hough
Medicineman

[Stahlseele]

Yay, the Wak came back!
Thought we'd scared you off . .

[Wakshaani]

Yay, the Wak came back!
Thought we'd scared you off . .

Nope! Just been doing some work on some things. Some Shadowrun, some not, plus a vacation where I spent a lot of time with teh PC off and just kinda enjoying the slow southern Spring.

BUT, that's in the rear-view mirror, so now it's time to get back on track.

This was one of the first places I knew I had to peek in at, however. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sengir]

Going with Resources even a notch higher drenched me with Nuyen

Negative Quality: Screwed Over by Priority System (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Glyph]

Negative quality: has to match the artwork. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Too bad the wired reflexes got nixed; it would have been nice to see one of the archetypes with wired reflexes (the street samurai and the tank both have synaptic boosters)

[X-Kalibur]

Negative quality: has to match the artwork. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Too bad the wired reflexes got nixed; it would have been nice to see one of the archetypes with wired reflexes (the street samurai and the tank both have synaptic boosters)

Or go old school with it, Boosted Reflexes.

[Wakshaani]

Negative quality: has to match the artwork. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Too bad the wired reflexes got nixed; it would have been nice to see one of the archetypes with wired reflexes (the street samurai and the tank both have synaptic boosters)

The Street Sam's not one of mine, so. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(Had I had freeform to work on it, however, I would have had a more old-school Street Sam. Human, wired reflexes, muscle augmentation and toner instead of cyberlimbs, cyber eyes... I like the classics.)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The Street Sam's not one of mine, so. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(Had I had freeform to work on it, however, I would have had a more old-school Street Sam. Human, wired reflexes, muscle augmentation and toner instead of cyberlimbs, cyber eyes... I like the classics.)

That is why they are classics - they stand the test of time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Glyph]

I can see why the street samurai and the tank both went for synaptic boosters - they had two cyberarms and dermal plating/bone lacing, respectively; they couldn't afford the Essence hit of wired reflexes. It is just weird not seeing wired reflexes at all in the archetypes.

Also, I imagine if Wakshaani had worked on the street samuarai archetype, maybe it wouldn't be 200,000+ over in nuyen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

All in all, some of the archetypes are fine - functional but as usual, not optimized (nor, in my opinion, should an archetype be optimized to the extent of a PC that a player has put work into). Others, though, have serious errors, or glaring omissions that affect their ability to actually perform their purported function (covert ops, etc.).

[Wakshaani]

I can see why the street samurai and the tank both went for synaptic boosters - they had two cyberarms and dermal plating/bone lacing, respectively; they couldn't afford the Essence hit of wired reflexes. It is just weird not seeing wired reflexes at all in the archetypes.

Also, I imagine if Wakshaani had worked on the street samuarai archetype, maybe it wouldn't be 200,000+ over in nuyen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

All in all, some of the archetypes are fine - functional but as usual, not optimized (nor, in my opinion, should an archetype be optimized to the extent of a PC that a player has put work into). Others, though, have serious errors, or glaring omissions that affect their ability to actually perform their purported function (covert ops, etc.).

There should be corrections on those at some point. *vague hand motions* Don't know what I'm allowed to say beyond that.

The lack of Wired at *all* is something I hadn't noticed, but now that it's mentioned, I'm all, like, "Well now that's just weird". I guess everyone assumed the Street Sam would have it and so didn't want to step on toes. Huh.

As an aside, are there any archetypes you think *should* have been in there but weren't, or ones thats houldn't be there at all? Not mechanicly (This one has error X, Y, and Z!) but thematicly. Thematically? I can never remember which is the right way to spell that. Word spoils a person, it does!

Though we should probably nudge this thread back to trolls at some point because, well, kinda the point. D'oh.

[Critias]

That's part of why I went out of my way to make sure Sledge had Wired Reflexes. It felt weird that no one else did, so I figured I'd give 'em to who I could (which isn't quite an archetype, but it was as close as I got to 'em).

[Wakshaani]

That's part of why I went out of my way to make sure Sledge had Wired Reflexes. It felt weird that no one else did, so I figured I'd give 'em to who I could (which isn't quite an archetype, but it was as close as I got to 'em).

BTW Crit, local guy's all agog at the GM screen. That thing's tres keen. Color me jealous. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

That is why they are classics - they stand the test of time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's posts like this that make me wish we had a thumbs up button or something like it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Jaid]

As an aside, are there any archetypes you think *should* have been in there but weren't, or ones thats houldn't be there at all? Not mechanicly (This one has error X, Y, and Z!) but thematicly. Thematically? I can never remember which is the right way to spell that. Word spoils a person, it does!

well, considering the actual capabilities of a technomancer, i think it would make sense to have a technomancer that doesn't focus on hacking at all, and actually just uses their abilities to support others. probably have it also be a face, and maybe a medic, to synergize with a desire to invest in mental attributes.

but that's just me.

(a more generic one would be to just have a good medic of some sort, though, technomancer or otherwise).

[Shinobi Killfist]

There should be corrections on those at some point. *vague hand motions* Don't know what I'm allowed to say beyond that.

The lack of Wired at *all* is something I hadn't noticed, but now that it's mentioned, I'm all, like, "Well now that's just weird". I guess everyone assumed the Street Sam would have it and so didn't want to step on toes. Huh.

As an aside, are there any archetypes you think *should* have been in there but weren't, or ones thats houldn't be there at all? Not mechanicly (This one has error X, Y, and Z!) but thematicly. Thematically? I can never remember which is the right way to spell that. Word spoils a person, it does!

Though we should probably nudge this thread back to trolls at some point because, well, kinda the point. D'oh.

Maybe wired reflexes should be revisited, there could be a reason no one took it. Like they are no longer the cheap option so the increased essence cost is just a bad choice. Do people want to take the cyber out of cyberpunk so making wired reflexes the boosted reflexes of this edition is the intent. But 150,000 to 190,000 for rating 2 with 3 to 1 essence cost its a no brainer to never ever take wired reflexes in this edition on a min/max standpoint. You want to do it for flavor, sure, but its just a really bad buy.

[Glyph]

As an aside, are there any archetypes you think *should* have been in there but weren't, or ones thats houldn't be there at all? Not mechanicly (This one has error X, Y, and Z!) but thematicly. Thematically? I can never remember which is the right way to spell that. Word spoils a person, it does!

Though we should probably nudge this thread back to trolls at some point because, well, kinda the point. D'oh.

The character archetypes are fairly complete. No purely tribal magician (and it would have been nice to see a mage based around ritual spellcasting, like the occult investigator is built around alchemical preparations). The mercenary archetype has been dropped because merc builds seem a bit too similar to street sammies, but I would have liked to see one with the same gritty feel of Wakshaani's sprawl ganger - a hard-bitten merc with a machine gun, an attitude, and lots of useful skills. The Bounty Hunter is a similar role, though. I would have liked to see an archetype like the Enforcer or the old Former Company Man; a shadowrunner who used to be an expediter/legbreaker for "the man", whether that be the megacorps or a syndicate.

Looking at the archetypes, troll-wise, we have a heavily augmented one (the tank), one that is tough but unaugmented and more gritty/street-level (the bounty hunter), and a more techie/cerebral one to go against type (the smuggler). I have some quibbles with them at the implementation level, but I think they show the range of trolls pretty well.

Maybe wired reflexes should be revisited, there could be a reason no one took it. Like they are no longer the cheap option so the increased essence cost is just a bad choice. Do people want to take the cyber out of cyberpunk so making wired reflexes the boosted reflexes of this edition is the intent. But 150,000 to 190,000 for rating 2 with 3 to 1 essence cost its a no brainer to never ever take wired reflexes in this edition on a min/max standpoint. You want to do it for flavor, sure, but its just a really bad buy.

Wired reflexes: 1, especially used, is a good pick for a gutterpunk, but wired reflexes: 2 is just too close to synaptic booster: 2 in price to justify the massive Essence hit you take from it - especially since that toughness-boosting 'ware is cheap enough that even speed sammies will be tempted to tank up a bit. The main selling point of wired reflexes is being able to combine it with reaction enhancers to go over the +4 limit, but most players, at least going by this board, are lukewarm, at best, to wireless bonuses. And even if you go that route, it is probably better to do it in-game and buy it at a higher grade.

[Wakshaani]

The Weapons Specialist has kinda stepped into the old Mercenary role, being essentially a vanilla human with great skills and a handful of guns. She's just a bit more subtle than he was. I do miss the former corp types dearly, however. Or mobster, in the case of the original former Company Man. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Wired 2 *is* expensive, though. It pretty much assures you a second action, and a good chance at a third, so it should be pricey, but, there should also be a fairly large cost differenctial between it and the bioware version, IMHO, to make up for the vast gulf of Essence and detectablity. Getting the balance just right is the tricky part.

I like our Troll archetypes though! As noted, you get a little of everything. Well, not so much a Troll Decker, but. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

well, considering the actual capabilities of a technomancer, i think it would make sense to have a technomancer that doesn't focus on hacking at all, and actually just uses their abilities to support others. probably have it also be a face, and maybe a medic, to synergize with a desire to invest in mental attributes.

but that's just me.

(a more generic one would be to just have a good medic of some sort, though, technomancer or otherwise).

Ah, no. They're not just sample characters, they're *archetypes*. They're supposed to be examples of what typical shadowrunners are. Originally, Shadowrun didn't even have much in the way of character creation; you were supposed to start with an archetype and adapt it to your liking. The archetypes are supposed to be examples of standard shadowrunner types, not exercises in off builds.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Wired reflexes: 1, especially used, is a good pick for a gutterpunk, but wired reflexes: 2 is just too close to synaptic booster: 2 in price to justify the massive Essence hit you take from it - especially since that toughness-boosting 'ware is cheap enough that even speed sammies will be tempted to tank up a bit. The main selling point of wired reflexes is being able to combine it with reaction enhancers to go over the +4 limit, but most players, at least going by this board, are lukewarm, at best, to wireless bonuses. And even if you go that route, it is probably better to do it in-game and buy it at a higher grade.

And once again we are back to the total illogic of the price hike for SR5. Prices were perfect in SR4 for such things. Cheap Cyber with High Essence or Expensive Bio with Low Essence. Now all we have is too expensive everything, a good deal of which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. *shrug*