So, let's talk about Trolls. Options

[Jaid]

Is it just me, or does it seem a little unreasonable and extremely limiting to insist that the scope of the core book be restricted to one and only one type of campaign? The scope of the game is certainly larger than that, and I'd argue that the core book needs to be reflective of that.

if it actually sat down and discussed "here are some ideas of what kind of campaign you could play" apart from just spending basically the entire book talking about career criminals, it could.

a couple of archetypes do not a type of campaign make.

as it stands, we have a book that basically only really discusses the campaign where you're professional criminals for hire with a heavy focus on corporate espionage, and then we have random elements from a different sort of campaign just kinda jammed in the middle for no good reason.

again, i don't think anyone is upset about the idea that the character was something else before becoming a shadowrunner, it's just a matter of by the time they're presented to us in the book that only really discusses shadowrunner focused campaigns, they should have made the transition to becoming a shadowrunner.

[Glyph]

perhaps a different way of saying what i think others are trying to say:

it's fine to have someone who's background is that they were a smuggler, so long as they are currently some form of effective shadowrunner. if instead of just making a generic rigger, you want a rigger who started off with smuggling and has since switched careers to being a shadowrunner, i doubt anyone would have a problem with that. they could have appropriate knowledge skills, contacts, and even some gear (like smuggling compartments in their cyberware, and their vehicles could have a bit more focus on aerial scouting and ECM rather than, say, drones designed to crawl through HVAC systems).

but if they're being presented as an archetype for a shadowrun character, they should now be a shadowrunner, even if they used to be a smuggler or a detective or even a rocker.

But that's basically what the smuggler is. He has piloting skills and gunnery, a rating: 2 control rig, an armed bike and helicopter, and a big van for the whole team to pile into. He is the archetypical wheelman. He is only missing a few drones, but that is only because, to keep the archetypes a bit simpler, they tend to have separate drone rigger and vehicle rigger archetypes (they did that for SR4, too).


The bounty hunter, well, he might run into more problems. He is an unaugmented generalist, and that remains a choice that the system does not support well. A shame, because the character has a great, organic feel to it. He would still make a great contact. But while there is less of a divide between augmented and non-augmented, there is actually less of the slack that lets you play quirky, street level characters. Because the grunts are tougher. When the low end of the threat scale starts at 6 dice for attack and defense, 8 or 9 dice to attack with is a very thin margin.

Maybe the overall power level is supposed to be lowered, to where a thug is a challenge for the average shadowrunner, and you need to be a street samurai or a brawling adept to have a chance against two or more of them.

But in that case, the GM needs to make sure that non-combat skills get a chance to shine. If the sprawl ganger and the bounty hunter don't get opportunities to use their wide array of skills, then the street samurai and his cyberarms of awesome will seem to really overshadow them.

Because make no mistake, despite all the nerfings, you can still make brutal characters. Want to start out with an Agility of 12, or a Reaction of 12, or 12 points' worth of adept powers? It is doable.

[tjn]

Is it just me, or does it seem a little unreasonable and extremely limiting to insist that the scope of the core book be restricted to one and only one type of campaign? The scope of the game is certainly larger than that, and I'd argue that the core book needs to be reflective of that.

What are the goals of a core rpg book? To my mind they are: to enable, without any other books or information, a group to play the game and to introduce new players to the game, and hopefully hook them such that they'll buy more books and become further invested in the game.

A core book that doesn't limit the scope of the game, does help support the first goal, but utterly fails at the second. SR's core book is already almost 500 pages as it is. It's a massive and intimidating tome to new players and I've found their first reaction is somewhere along the lines of "yeah, right."If the book doesn't limit it's scope to career criminals hired by a Johnson to shoot people in the face for money and instead included all of the possible advanced permutations of the hugely open and complex world, with an in game history of over a quarter century... it would be unpublishable.

Frankly SR is just this side of a kitchen sink setting. There's no possible way to do proper justice to all of the different playstyles that are available within SR. Each of them should get their own word count to adequately explain the hows and whys of that playstyle, how to affect that playstyle and how to implement them in your game. And for me, I find it unreasonable to dedicate word count to advanced options in a book that should be digestible to someone without any background in Shadowrun at all, especially in a book that's already as big as it is. Which is why I'd like a set of alternative books I mentioned before, maybe with other ideas, because I'm sure the four I named were hardly conclusive, but these alternative types of campaigns can then get their proper word count that they deserve, and where you don't have to worry about new players who don't even understand what a Mr. Johnson does, or why he's in Seattle.

The alternative, if not dedicating the adequate word count but still shoehorning in the alternative campaigns, leads to unsupported vestigial appendages that don't serve the advanced player or alternatively, serves to confuse the new player when he sits down and sees the smuggler which causes cognitive dissonance when he/she exclaims, "I thought the GM said this was a heist game?" If the alternatives are in the corebook, they should be limited to sidebars at best. You don't run before you can walk, and adding all the doodads and options to a new player can cause the open world paralysis similar to what's experienced in games like GTA or Skyrim. When you heap a ton of options on a new player, a common response is just "nope," and we lose a potential fan.

Also Glyph, thanks for the perspective on the Smuggler. I think I would have saved a lot of brain sweat if they just named the entry "Vehicle Rigger" instead of Smuggler.

[Stahlseele]

I am thinking about trying to build another close combat monstrosity of a Troll and i stumbled upon the WH40K Thunder-Hammers swung around . .
Now i don't want to use electricity or whatever, but i am thinking: Make a huge Hammer(human sized. Sized like a human, not sized for a human obviously) and make it out of the hardest most resilent stuff available for making stuff out of . . And then attach a claymore mine to the blunt end of the hammer. TECHNICALLY, with the target being a squishy usually, the squishy should not have a barrier rating but the hammer could/should so the claymore WOULD be getting the chunky salsa from the hammer and thus red mist pretty much anything organic hit by this . . right? O.o

[Wakshaani]

Side note Wak, you seem to really like skills A.

I take it a lot myself, but all 3 of the listed archetypes have it.

I do! And there're many times when I was grumbling that Skills A didn't give me enough skill points. I really like skills. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I don't think I went under Skills C on the archetypes I did. (For the record, those were Street Shaman, Brawling Adept, Weapons Specialist, Face, Technomancer, Sprawl Ganger, and Bounty Hunter.)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My last SR4 character was one, made him a mystic adept and he was freaking awesome. Hell of a face and had a decent bag of tricks.

Indeed... you can get really varied with a Rocker. Mine was Augmented (with a Replacement Cyberarm ala Johnny Silverhand). He was primarily a Face in the Shadows. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I do! And there're many times when I was grumbling that Skills A didn't give me enough skill points. I really like skills. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I don't think I went under Skills C on the archetypes I did. (For the record, those were Street Shaman, Brawling Adept, Weapons Specialist, Face, Technomancer, Sprawl Ganger, and Bounty Hunter.)

I agree...
Skills are the important part of the character, and there are never enough points for them, generally. I can make do, if I have to, but that comes at the expense of the concept, and that annoys me.

For what it is worth... I like the archetypes you developed.

[Critias]

I feel like Skills are (fairly) okay in SR5, but stats are just friggin' anemic. I never have the stat points for whatever character I'm trying to make. Ever. Always gotta dump-stat something, and try to make up for it later, and bleargh. Stats, man. I feel like the attribute column could just get a +3 or a +4 across the board, and things wouldn't be broken.

[Sengir]

Is it just me, or does it seem a little unreasonable and extremely limiting to insist that the scope of the core book be restricted to one and only one type of campaign? The scope of the game is certainly larger than that, and I'd argue that the core book needs to be reflective of that.

Ever wonder why it's called the core book? And the pre-built characters not simply labeled as that, but as shadowrunner archetypes?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I feel like Skills are (fairly) okay in SR5, but stats are just friggin' anemic. I never have the stat points for whatever character I'm trying to make. Ever. Always gotta dump-stat something, and try to make up for it later, and bleargh. Stats, man. I feel like the attribute column could just get a +3 or a +4 across the board, and things wouldn't be broken.

Yeah, I can see that. It is quite frustrating sometimes. Which is why I don't go below "C" pick for Stats. "C" pick gives you average stats across the board. However, I tend to prefer "B" pick Stats, so you can have a bit of flex. "A" pick almost always goes to Skills.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ever wonder why it's called the core book? And the pre-built characters not simply labeled as that, but as shadowrunner archetypes?

Not once have I ever wondered that. I LIKE the diversity of the archetypes in the Core Book. I often wish they could squeeze a few more in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wakshaani]

I feel like Skills are (fairly) okay in SR5, but stats are just friggin' anemic. I never have the stat points for whatever character I'm trying to make. Ever. Always gotta dump-stat something, and try to make up for it later, and bleargh. Stats, man. I feel like the attribute column could just get a +3 or a +4 across the board, and things wouldn't be broken.

Huh. Meanwhile, I'm fine with stats and twitchy on the skill side of things.

...

You wanna be Willis or Arnold? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Medicineman]

You wanna be Willis or Arnold?

You mean John McLane or John Matrix ,right ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

HokaHey
Medicineman

[Sendaz]

Huh. Meanwhile, I'm fine with stats and twitchy on the skill side of things.

...

You wanna be Willis or Arnold? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Ex Presidential Candidate* Arnold w/ Leonization (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

*thanks to the passing of the 29th amendment in SR—which removed Presidential term limits–also removed the prohibition on foreign-born nationals .

[Wakshaani]

You mean John McLane or John Matrix ,right ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

HokaHey
Medicineman

Ex Presidential Candidate* Arnold w/ Leonization (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

*thanks to the passing of the 29th amendment in SR—which removed Presidential term limits–also removed the prohibition on foreign-born nationals

Aaaaactually I meant Mr Drummand's adopted kids. DIfferent Strokes and all that.

E for effort, tho!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Aaaaactually I meant Mr Drummand's adopted kids. DIfferent Strokes and all that.
E for effort, tho!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) +1.

[Jaid]

But that's basically what the smuggler is. He has piloting skills and gunnery, a rating: 2 control rig, an armed bike and helicopter, and a big van for the whole team to pile into. He is the archetypical wheelman. He is only missing a few drones, but that is only because, to keep the archetypes a bit simpler, they tend to have separate drone rigger and vehicle rigger archetypes (they did that for SR4, too).

I've never once made a character who's job was to sit passively outside the building waiting for the rest of the team to do a job. that's a fine NPC, but it's a lousy character archetype.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I've never once made a character who's job was to sit passively outside the building waiting for the rest of the team to do a job. that's a fine NPC, but it's a lousy character archetype.

So 9 Dice is not good enough for a starting character outside of his main ability? The Smuggler archetype would throw 9 Dice with a Smartlink Enabled Weapon. Looks acceptable to me.

[Wakshaani]

I've never once made a character who's job was to sit passively outside the building waiting for the rest of the team to do a job. that's a fine NPC, but it's a lousy character archetype.

That was *the* build for RIggers in 1st and most of 2nd edition. RIggers where wheelmen whose primary job was to keep teh van warm for when everything went sideways and they ha dto hotfoot it out of there.

Later, they got drones, so teh Rigger could participate more, but, old school riggers *never* left teh van.

[Jaid]

So 9 Dice is not good enough for a starting character outside of his main ability? The Smuggler archetype would throw 9 Dice with a Smartlink Enabled Weapon. Looks acceptable to me.

would you bring a regular ganger with you on a shadowrun? because that's a pretty comparable dice pool.

(also, would you actually go on a shadowrun with a wireless enabled smartgun/link? because otherwise it's not adding any dice at all).

[KarmaInferno]

I dunno, I see Missions characters with dice pools in combat abilities of 9-12 all the time.

Then again, I see some folks with 14-18 as well.




-k

[Glyph]

I think it all depends on whether combat is your primary or your secondary specialty, and how much focus or resources the character has invested in it. 9-12 at least pulls away from the basic grunts, and mid to high teens has always been a respectable dice pool.

Trolls have less of a hit to their Agility, since you can hard max one Attribute without the balloon cost of SR4, and augmented maximums are a straight +4 instead of (Attribute x 1.5). Either a cyberarm, or an adept's improved attribute ability, or used muscle replacement/toner can get you +3, so it is not hard to start out with an Agility of 8 for a troll, 9 if you get exceptional attribute. Trolls may be geared more towards the tank end, but they don't have to be clumsy oafs. My biggest problem with the Tank archetype is that Agility of 2, which is a grating weakness on a build that truly is focused on combat. It's good to be able to take a beating, but it's also good to be able to dish one out.

Skills are curious in the archetypes. Despite some restrictions on them being loosened, and the rating descriptions being revised to reflect the new spread from 1 to 12, it doesn't show that much. Look at the old SR3 archetypes, and how many rating: 6 skills the covert ops specialist had. The SR5 archetypes, by contrast, look more like SR4 archetypes, skill rating-wise.

[Wakshaani]

I'm reminded of a thing!

Troll speed.

Back in the day, Trolls were slower than humans, the idea being that their bulk was a problem. Later, they sped up, the idea being that they had long legs as part of their extreme height and, thus, despite their lower "hustle" stats, they could keep pace.

In 4th, they were sprinting WAY faster than humans, and I *think* they did in 3rd as well, but I confess to not having eyed that particular rule for a bit.

For 5th, they were slowed back down, figuring that the higher bulk and short legs relative to their size should keep them a bit sluggish again. (Trolls should have legs about the same size as a human's, but a far, far larger torso and longer arms.)

[Stahlseele]

In SR3 Trolls took a hit to the Quickness Stat which determined how fast you could go running, but had the same QCKx3 running multiplier as humans, orks and elves.
Dorfs on the other hand did NOT take a hit to Quickness, but had only QCKx2 as their running speed, so even though the stumpies were technically quicker, they fell behind in a foot race very fast. Or slow. However you wanna look at it i guess . .

[Cain]

Is it just me, or does it seem a little unreasonable and extremely limiting to insist that the scope of the core book be restricted to one and only one type of campaign? The scope of the game is certainly larger than that, and I'd argue that the core book needs to be reflective of that.

Wait, like D&D core books are limited to dungeon crawling and slaying dragons? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Seriously, it's called *Shadowrun* for a reason. It's about Shadowrunners, doing Shadowruns. You can easily adapt the setting to do something else, but that's the core of the game. You can easily hack D&D into social intrigue, but it's not what the game was writ ten for.