So, let's talk about Trolls. Options

[Sengir]

Yeah. And I can't do either.

I can do a few pull-ups or pull myself (slightly below 70 kilos) over an obstacle at that height, but the last time I tried lifting a 50 liter keg I clearly would have needed to burn some edge. Google says the empty weights 12 kilos, 50+12 < 70, so I should have done it, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Xystophoroi]

I can do a few pull-ups or pull myself (slightly below 70 kilos) over an obstacle at that height, but the last time I tried lifting a 50 liter keg I clearly would have needed to burn some edge. Google says the empty weights 12 kilos, 50+12 < 70, so I should have done it, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'm >100kg (103kg as of my home scales 40 minutes ago) and I routinely pick up and throw people of similar weights (Judo and catch wrestling, though it's technique in there and I'm considerably better at sacrifice throws than any of the big slams people like so actually lifting that weight off the floor basically doesn't happen). But I can't do even a single pull up unaided and can't lift a barbell of that size off the floor, let alone above my head.

Core muscle mass, itty bitty arms and shoulders.

Oh...err...and a little layer of jiggly insulation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Jaid]

Oh...err...and a little layer of jiggly insulation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

mine also doubles as an emergency food supply ^^

[Sendaz]

Oh...err...and a little layer of jiggly insulation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I always loved it when Chiun from the Destroyer series in one of the novels spun a tale of how the Sumo bulk was an intentional effect developed as a counter to pressure point attacks being used by many MA's.

Remo later goes up against a Sumo and in the early stages of the fight is getting slapped around as his nerve strikes don't really connect through the blubber as well as blunted a lot of the harder straight on punches and kicks.

Yes it doesn't entirely work that way, but still it can be fun to think of it as less jiggly and more anti-ninja (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

@Sengir:
Technically, no, they can't pull themselves up, due to how hillariously useless STR is for actually lifting stuff . .
if i remember these numbers correctly, most Trolls won't be able to pull themselves up anywhere. And technically, seeing how their LEGS have to actually carry the same weight with the same STR rating, they are not even capable of standing up . .

Yeah I did the math once based on what i lift and apparently I have a 5 body and 6 strength. Don't get me wrong I do go to the Gym and heavy lift but I'm a middle aged fat guy, I'm not even close to being near the peak of human perfection.

The numbers kind of work in my mind if I was thinking about what you can lift with near zero fatigue. Your bread and butter work for an hours straight lifting it type weights. The you put an 8 hour day in lifting weights like that constantly type of thing. Hard labor and fatiguing due to the time, but no where near your max lift.

sadly its described as max lift. Which by the way that should be another racial trait of trolls, something like they can lift and carry twice what others can lift based on their attributes.

[Cain]

I always loved it when Chiun from the Destroyer series in one of the novels spun a tale of how the Sumo bulk was an intentional effect developed as a counter to pressure point attacks being used by many MA's.

Remo later goes up against a Sumo and in the early stages of the fight is getting slapped around as his nerve strikes don't really connect through the blubber as well as blunted a lot of the harder straight on punches and kicks.

Yes it doesn't entirely work that way, but still it can be fun to think of it as less jiggly and more anti-ninja (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

In the real world, sumos are also scary fast. No match for a Master of Sinanju, of course, but they've caught many a martial artist by surprise by how fast they can move.

The big problem with trolls since 4.x is that they have a Quickness penalty. In previous editions, it made sense, since Quickness didn't directly factor into your offensive dice. It did affect your combat/dodge pool, which makes sense in that something that big is going to have a harder time dodging an attack. But leaving that penalty in as a legacy rule means that trolls are going to be slow and clumsy, something that isn't true in the real world. Big people can be just as fast and just as accurate as bantamweight fighters.

[Glyph]

At least that is slightly ameliorated in SR5. Since augmented maximums are a straight +4, trolls max out at 9, compared to 10 for a human; this is better than the 7 vs. 9 in SR4 (you wouldn't think it from the sucky Agility scores of all of the troll archetypes, though - an Agility of 2 or 3 for a combat-oriented character is pretty pitiful). Plus, skills go higher and can thus be a bigger factor in the dice pool.

I still don't know why trolls went from having a higher movement rate (I think that was pretty consistent through the first four editions, although I could be wrong), to having a lower movement rate. I also don't get why they still use Strength for the running skill, but have Agility determine the base movement rates.

[pragma]

Though this is irrelevant to trolls, one other reason that strength is a dump stat is the fact that it is no longer coupled to armor capacity. In SR4 I needed to have a strength of at least 3 in order to don the eminently serviceable armor vest. In SR5 I can dump strength down to 2 safely.

Trolls, of course, were way over any reasonable armor capacity limit in SR4. So the decoupling of armor in 5 only allows other people to more easily catch up to their soak pools.

[RHat]

In SR5 I can dump strength down to 2 safely.

For certain definitions of safe. The Limit importance of Strength, which amongst other things includes implications for things like Knockdown, are important.

[Glyph]

Though this is irrelevant to trolls, one other reason that strength is a dump stat is the fact that it is no longer coupled to armor capacity. In SR4 I needed to have a strength of at least 3 in order to don the eminently serviceable armor vest. In SR5 I can dump strength down to 2 safely.

Trolls, of course, were way over any reasonable armor capacity limit in SR4. So the decoupling of armor in 5 only allows other people to more easily catch up to their soak pools.

In SR4, armor encumbrance was determined by Body. In SR5, Strength is used for determining how many points you can get from armor accessories without being encumbered. Also, remember that Strength is no longer halved when determining damage, so an augmented troll can do significantly more damage in hand-to-hand combat. Despite it being marginally more useful, though, Strength is still a dump stat for non-combat builds (and a lot of combat builds).

[Surukai]

In SR4, armor encumbrance was determined by Body. In SR5, Strength is used for determining how many points you can get from armor accessories without being encumbered. Also, remember that Strength is no longer halved when determining damage, so an augmented troll can do significantly more damage in hand-to-hand combat. Despite it being marginally more useful, though, Strength is still a dump stat for non-combat builds (and a lot of combat builds).

To be fair, Logic and Charisma are very common dump stats for a lot of builds. The troll penalty for those are not an issue for many troll character concepts.

Trolls also get the neat option of getting a cyberarm with Strength 14 quite cheaply without having to spend those 200+ karma on maxing their natural strength. Add spurs and you have 17P AP-3 melee weapon that is pretty awesome.

I don't see a problem forcing trolls to pay for their stats. They still get 5 to start with cheaper (not for free since priority A/B is not free in any way,shape or form) and they do not need to spend lots of karma on Exceptional Attribute or go for the most expensive cyberware to get good strength.

[pragma]

Glyph, good catch. That's what I get for trying to bridge editions by memory. I looked back at some old sheets and, indeed, found that strength is firmly fixed at 2 while body is 3 in a variety of non-combat builds. In fact, the only character I can find with a high strength is a mobility adept (an ork), who needed it for the running skill. Even my hand-to-hand monsters tended to default to shock gloves because of the much better ROI in terms of BP.

RHat, fair point about knockdown. In SR4, my choice of boosting body for additional armor also boosted knockdown resistance directly, so I agree that strength is more valuable in SR5 in that way.

Surukai, given that trolls are priority A or B, they pay through the nose for that extra strength. Those priority slots are _much_ more valuable for skills or attributes.

In fact, that's the big reason I haven't built trolls in SR5: priority A/B are so much more valuable for skills and attributes. I think Glyph has the right of this one and the screwy arrangement of priorities is to blame. Umidori suggested dropping the required priority to C in the other thread, that seems like a winning house rule to me.

[Surukai]

But, dropping trolls to C might make them too good (I am under the impression that they are fine now)

Troll has +8 attribute points (+4 strength, +4 body)

Going from Human E, Attributes B gives 2 for metatype (+1 edge, +1 for human E for special attributes) + 20 from priority

total 22

Going from Troll B , ATtributes E gives troll 8 + 12, or 20 total.

Human gains 2 attributes, but does not have +1 die melee, +1 armor, thermographic vision.


With A/E instead troll has 8+5+12 = 25, A/E human has 26. So it depends on where you put yourself.

It looks like a small but reasonable cost to be a troll. You loose 1-2 attribute for your armor and reach.

Dropping troll to a C would make trolls flat out superior instead, that does not fit the "at a cost" thinking at all in my opinion.


Compare with Orc

Orc is worth 5 (+3 body, +2 strength). C attributes is 16, E attributes is 12, Human is worth 2 (+1 edge and E human has 1 point while C orc has 0).

Orc is too 1 or so attribute point behind a human. Just like the troll. That looks and sounds pretty good to me.

Elf D/E, Human 16, Elf 15. Once again, elf at lowest tier is 1 attribute behind human (But benefit from best offensive attribute and best mage stat).

Dwarf C/E human is 18, Dwarf is 18, on par with human at C/E combo.


So, my question is, pragma, if no other race has a major advantage in attribute sum to humans, why should trolls suddenly get one?
I understand the will to make a non-strength-monster troll characters but buffing trolls only makes the strength-monster characters even worse.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Though this is irrelevant to trolls, one other reason that strength is a dump stat is the fact that it is no longer coupled to armor capacity. In SR4 I needed to have a strength of at least 3 in order to don the eminently serviceable armor vest. In SR5 I can dump strength down to 2 safely.

Trolls, of course, were way over any reasonable armor capacity limit in SR4. So the decoupling of armor in 5 only allows other people to more easily catch up to their soak pools.

Strength did not figure into Armor Capacity in SR4A. It was Body x 2.

EDIT: As others pointed out later in the Thread. *sigh*

[Stahlseele]

@Surukai
Did you factor into your calculations the fact that Trolls get hit very hard with lowered attribute maximums as well or not?
And the fact that getting a + to Bod and STR simply ain't worth as much as you would think from the numbers. Basically, they pay for mostly useless attribute points.

[Surukai]

Body is useful, it gives much needed recovery. (Basically heath and mana regen are both depending on body)

And, if you don't have any use for Strength and Body, Troll is not for you. It's like complaining that a rigger laying inside his cocoon has no use for agility or Charisma and therefore have bad value from being Elf. It is true, but irrelevant. Elves are still amazingly good for a huge number of character concepts.


I did not factor in the lower attribute max for troll because I did not factor in the higher attribute max they have. A troll has

+8 total higher attribute max, and -5 total lower attribute max (-2 charisma, -1 agility, -1 logic, -1 intuition).

The positive quality for having a higher attribute max costs 14 karma

The negative quality in SR4 (runners companion) for having a LOWER attribute max only gave 5BP (= -10 karma)

Even if they are worth the same, a total +8 -5 is still +3 for the troll, and in terms of qualities 8*14 karma - 5 * 10 karma = +62 karma in favor for the troll. (Note: the negative quality doesn't exist in SR5, I used the one from SR4 here instead)

That is why I did not factor this.

[Jaid]

there's a big difference between the elf rigger and the troll that is anything other than a melee-focused tank build.

for starters, there's cost. the elf only invests priority D. this is quite frankly a very minor investment. whatever you were thinking of putting into priority D instead isn't going to lose much, if at all (in the case of special) by dropping it to E.

secondly, while many builds may not need massive amounts of those attributes, having a minimum of 2 agility and 3 charisma is actually fairly reasonable for almost any build. the most likely to be dumped is charisma, but the thing is, not having a 1 charisma is actually quite nice; it means you can default on charisma-based skills, which means that you don't have to invest points into the various social skills just to be able to even try at all. almost any shadowrunner can make use of skills like negotiation, con, intimidate, etc.

in contrast, the troll is paying a huge amount. priority A or B are major investments. and while the troll may get roughly as much raw attributes out of the deal, the simple fact is that they are losing out on versatility, and the attributes that they gain are not what most would consider to be a good investment. almost any build *could* reasonably accommodate a minimum of 2 agility and 3 charisma, because you get a fairly significant benefit out of your investments there; lots of skills are based on those attributes, and in many cases those skills are ones that you are almost guaranteed to need at some point (stealth, various weapon skills, various social skills, etc). very few builds would otherwise choose to invest in a minimum 5 strength and body, especially the strength.

so the elf gets attributes that are useful in almost any character in low quantities but it costs next to nothing, while the troll gets attributes that few characters need in large amounts, but are forced to take them in large amounts at full price, plus suffer some additional drawbacks while gaining some benefits which are frequently not relevant in the slightest (thermal vision and reach are not worth much for most characters, the armour is nice but not *that* nice and doesn't stack with everything).

the only characters that make efficient use of troll attributes are those that need high values in both strength and body, and even then only if they're going beyond the maximum attributes an ork can fit in (if it's possible to reach with an ork, you're better off just making an ork, because priority C is a great deal less painful than priority B). and those are primarily going to be melee tanks, or bow/throwing adept tanks.





also, on a side note, you can't get a troll cyberlimb with strength 14. the best you can get is 13, because the customization can't exceed racial max, and the augmentation only goes up to 3. secondly, availability and cost means that even if you could get a strength 13 limb, it isn't going to be low cost, quite likely not available at chargen iirc. if it is available at chargen, you probably won't be able to buy much, if any, agility in it.

however, perhaps most importantly, your augmented maximum as found somewhere in the depths of the character creation chapters isn't the same as your racial augmented maximum (i'm afb and have no desire to dig through the discussion Cain and I had regarding the value of trolls to find where he cited it... but i think it was in the 90-100 page area). it's your attribute +4. so you especially cannot get that cyberlimb at low cost, because doing so requires that you actually have a natural strength of 10 (or, to get the actual highest strength possible troll cyberlimb, you technically only need a 9 natural strength, since the customization rules do explicitly allow you to customize higher than your own strength).

[RHat]

And, if you don't have any use for Strength and Body, Troll is not for you. It's like complaining that a rigger laying inside his cocoon has no use for agility or Charisma and therefore have bad value from being Elf. It is true, but irrelevant. Elves are still amazingly good for a huge number of character concepts.

Not really equivalent - it's a LOT easier to play an Elf against type than it is a troll, and the design MUST allow for people playing the characters against type. The cost may be reasonable for playing to type, but if it's unreasonable for playing against type a problem still exists.

[Sengir]

To be fair, Logic and Charisma are very common dump stats for a lot of builds. The troll penalty for those are not an issue for many troll character concepts.

Charisma touches upon another problem of trolls: That being a shaman (which I think fits trolls far better than Hermeticism) or even a completely isolated TM requires an above-average "persuasiveness and charm". When the antisocial hermit (not our hermit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) runs around with CHA 6 that's stupid. When the antisocial troll hermit doesn't work because trolls are capped at CHA 4, that's a system failure.

[Shinobi Killfist]

If they felt the need to use priority, I wish they had removed metatypes from the priority table entirely and found a way to balance the metatypes, like bonus skill points or something. The problem with A or B is it removes far too many options as you end up devoting 2 of your key priorities to one thing your attributes. Sure you can dump attributes to E or D as a troll but it kind of defeats the purpose of being a troll as you just end up with A/B attributes and if you bump up the Troll stats you really have to handicap the rest. You are forced into pretty much giving up things like resources or magic because if you take those you cripple skills or vice versa. No matter the metatype you always have to cripple something, but other races have more options to cripple things that don't effect their concept much. Trolls pretty much always cripple something core to most character concepts.

[Lurker37]

And let us not forget how long the Troll Combat Mage has been an archetype. If you're going to have examples and artwork of trolls doing magic in the source material, why make trolls so bloody terrible at being mages due to their crippling mental attribute caps? Allowing a troll to be race priority C would do little to help this.

In 3E you could get around the worst of the mental attribute restrictions ( for a shaman or conjuror at least) by using metavariants. Fomori used to drop the charisma penalty (and lose the dermal deposits) in exchange for one less point of strength and body. (They did not have any magic resistance, but a higher than usual percentage of the Fomori population were awakened.) In 4E those stat adjustments vanished, but the fluff still described them as more attractive. Unless 5E is going to reinstate metavariants having different attribute adjustments, any player who attempts to replicate the fluff in 5E is walking right into a trap.

[Glyph]

also, on a side note, you can't get a troll cyberlimb with strength 14. the best you can get is 13, because the customization can't exceed racial max, and the augmentation only goes up to 3. secondly, availability and cost means that even if you could get a strength 13 limb, it isn't going to be low cost, quite likely not available at chargen iirc. if it is available at chargen, you probably won't be able to buy much, if any, agility in it.

however, perhaps most importantly, your augmented maximum as found somewhere in the depths of the character creation chapters isn't the same as your racial augmented maximum (i'm afb and have no desire to dig through the discussion Cain and I had regarding the value of trolls to find where he cited it... but i think it was in the 90-100 page area). it's your attribute +4. so you especially cannot get that cyberlimb at low cost, because doing so requires that you actually have a natural strength of 10 (or, to get the actual highest strength possible troll cyberlimb, you technically only need a 9 natural strength, since the customization rules do explicitly allow you to customize higher than your own strength).

Remember, "Cyberlimbs have their own Strength and Agility ratings." (pg. 455). Otherwise, the street samurai archetype would not be able to have Strength: 11 on his cyberlimbs when his own natural Strength is only 5.

Of course, this is the same archetype that more than 200,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) over cost, so maybe it's not a definitive example of the RAI. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cain]

however, perhaps most importantly, your augmented maximum as found somewhere in the depths of the character creation chapters isn't the same as your racial augmented maximum (i'm afb and have no desire to dig through the discussion Cain and I had regarding the value of trolls to find where he cited it... but i think it was in the 90-100 page area). it's your attribute +4. so you especially cannot get that cyberlimb at low cost, because doing so requires that you actually have a natural strength of 10 (or, to get the actual highest strength possible troll cyberlimb, you technically only need a 9 natural strength, since the customization rules do explicitly allow you to customize higher than your own strength).

Jaid has this one right. The rule is seriously buried in the BBB, (it doesn't appear anyplace sensible, and it doesn't show in the index or table of contents) but you cannot augment an attribute past current value + 4. That does reduce the value of trolls, since you can no longer go for an anorexic build and then pump body via augmentations.

[Cain]

Remember, "Cyberlimbs have their own Strength and Agility ratings." (pg. 455). Otherwise, the street samurai archetype would not be able to have Strength: 11 on his cyberlimbs when his own natural Strength is only 5.

Of course, this is the same archetype that more than 200,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) over cost, so maybe it's not a definitive example of the RAI. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

We had a large argument over this one. It's definitely questionable, and probably a mistake caused by two people operating under different rulesets. Given the number of editing and playtesting problems in SR5, this doesn't surprise me.

[RHat]

We had a large argument over this one. It's definitely questionable, and probably a mistake caused by two people operating under different rulesets. Given the number of editing and playtesting problems in SR5, this doesn't surprise me.

Based on dev commentary on thd other boards, its quite intentional.