Making a 4e Character: Optimization & Avoiding Traps Options

[CaptRory]

There is only one correct phobia - ducks. You get to shout "duck" and dive for cover with the rest of your crew joining you then when you see that Red samurai detachment they ignore you and get shot.

Bwahahaha~ Nice.

<Pinky> "Canard! Canard!"
<Brain> "Doesn't that mean duck?"
*Balloons crashed into a giant bell*

[Shortstraw]

Yep it's from the classic 2050's children's cautionary tale - the runner who cried duck.

[Sendaz]

Not entirely when artists, gays, and lawyers are listed as examples of a "specific target group." But then, I'd also be a little leery if a player is going to be prejudiced towards a group that is unlikely to ever be in a campaign. If a player is gonna be prejudiced against clowns, then there may be a run or three involving a circus.

Mimes are a good alternative, just as creepy and more widespread since they act more in solo or small groups and do not need a whole circus.


Again, I just don't like mimes after that run where everyone else in the group was a mime. *shudders*
Plus I still think they were cheating with their mime dice, I mean come on, they were rolling better than TJ.

<Pinky> "Canard! Canard!"
<Brain> "Doesn't that mean duck?"
*Balloons crashed into a giant bell*

I wonder how many runners get salsa'd every year because we use the word frag for both swearing and for the grenade.

FRAG!
*everyone dives for cover*
Sorry... stubbed my toe

Later...

FRAG!
*again with the diving*
Sorry... banged my knee on the desk

Still later

FRAG!
Whatever *keeps going*
BOOM!

[CaptRory]

Reminds me of this gem from DS9.

[Cain]

In Debt and Day Job are my hot-button flaws. In Debt has been discussed to death, but Day Job is the worst by far. Not only is it a flaw that directly gives you cash, it also has many of the same problems as In Debt, but ongoing. Because it's a flaw, you keep the income until you buy it off; you can blow off your job as often as you like, the paychecks will still keep rolling in. I've banned Day Job from my games with extreme prejudice.

Also: Despite what others have said, Incompetence is not a trap option. It's far better than the group choices-- Infirm, Uncouth, Uneducated-- and the trick is to pick skills that you probably won't use or can't use. It'd take a really permissive GM to allow a mundane to take Magical Incompetences, but certain ones like Hardware and Software for non-deckers is a great buy.

Mathematically speaking, multiple Incompetences are better than the group options. Uncouth blocks off six skills, and nets you 20 points in return. You could buy four Social incompetences for that price, and still be functional or better in two social skills. If you really want a character that's completely socially inept, you can take six incompetences and get 30 points instead of 20. You do take a hit to Notoriety, but enough time will solve that problem, plus Notoriety has its own advantages. The other two "group incompetences" block off even more skills, so they're even worse.

The best joke was when I had a character with Incompetence: Pilot Aerospace. Technically it's a legit choice, but not only is it not likely to ever come up, it will never come up in a way that won't already mean the team is screwed. If the street sam absolutely must pilot a space shuttle, you're already screwed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/extinguish.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And I will say it again...

A Flaw that is not a Flaw isn't a Flaw.
Translated: A Negative Quality that has absolutely no impact is not a Negative Quality. And therefore you get no points for it.

It is a simple rule, and avoids a lot of Shenanigans. Simple as that.

[Elfenlied]

And I will say it again...

A Flaw that is not a Flaw isn't a Flaw.
Translated: A Negative Quality that has absolutely no impact is not a Negative Quality. And therefore you get no points for it.

It is a simple rule, and avoids a lot of Shenanigans. Simple as that.

I've had to play a cybered mage (Cyberarm+Bioware) with one DM before he was willing to concede that Sensitive System does in fact have impact, namely it bars you from augmenting in certain directions. The fact that I rolled more dice on shooting skills than the Streetsam (without the use of any magic) certainly helped drive the point home.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I've had to play a cybered mage (Cyberarm+Bioware) with one DM before he was willing to concede that Sensitive System does in fact have impact, namely it bars you from augmenting in certain directions. The fact that I rolled more dice on shooting skills than the Streetsam (without the use of any magic) certainly helped drive the point home.

Agreed... I am not one to complain about Sensitive System... It DOES have an Impact, though it CAN be minimized. The loss of cheap augmentations is a cost, however. After all, Cyberware provides an immediate and powerful avenue for improvements.

Personally, I would probably apply Sensitive System to Bioware instead (Cyber has a Huge impact on Essence at relatively low cost, so I see no need to further inhibit characters, where as Bio is Expensive and has a minimal Impact on Essence, and is the ideal path for an awakened to augment because of that reason - It is still a better path, but at DOUBLE Essence and Still Expensive, if forces more of a choice between augmentations and no augmentations), but that is just me.

[Elfenlied]

As long as it isn't written like 5e Sensitive System, which utterly misses the point by being unplayable levels of bad for mundanes.

[toturi]

And I will say it again...

A Flaw that is not a Flaw isn't a Flaw.
Translated: A Negative Quality that has absolutely no impact is not a Negative Quality. And therefore you get no points for it.

It is a simple rule, and avoids a lot of Shenanigans. Simple as that.

The only good Flaw is a Flaw that isn't.

A Negative Quality that can be made to minimal negative impact is still a Negative Quality. And the more points you get points for it the better.

It is a simple rule and is lots more fun. Simple as that.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The only good Flaw is a Flaw that isn't.

A Negative Quality that can be made to minimal negative impact is still a Negative Quality. And the more points you get points for it the better.

It is a simple rule and is lots more fun. Simple as that.

The quest for unlimited power is not fun. I far prefer a Good Story over the Mechanical Quest to be the King. *shrug*
Fundamental Philosophy Differences. We will not reconcile them. Leave it at that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As long as it isn't written like 5e Sensitive System, which utterly misses the point by being unplayable levels of bad for mundanes.

Indeed... No doubt. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

Well, I'd certainly be hesitant to call "Thrill Seeker" a negative quality for a combat biker.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, I'd certainly be hesitant to call "Thrill Seeker" a negative quality for a combat biker.

Gets you into trouble (potentially) and potentially causes mayhem and mishap... Definition of a Negative Quality. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

And I will say it again...

A Flaw that is not a Flaw isn't a Flaw.
Translated: A Negative Quality that has absolutely no impact is not a Negative Quality. And therefore you get no points for it.

It is a simple rule, and avoids a lot of Shenanigans. Simple as that.

That's a system flaw, though. Really, not all skills are created equal: Pistols and Automatics are the more common combat skills, and Perception is probably the most commonly bought skill, period. However, Incompetent: Perception and Incompetent: Pilot Aerospace give you exactly the same return, even though they don't have nearly the same amount of value.

Flaws need to have a gradiated return: the more a Flaw hurts you, the more points it should be worth. SR4.5's edge/flaw system is really a poorly-done one-size-doesn't-fit-all system, with glaring errors that can be easily demonstrated. The problem is that the system doesn't make that distinction, even though it wouldn't be hard to do so.

[Elfenlied]

I kinda like Fate's approach to it. Basically, your flaws give you an Edge like resource whenever they bite you in the backside.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I kinda like Fate's approach to it. Basically, your flaws give you an Edge like resource whenever they bite you in the backside.

Yep... Works like a charm, too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's a system flaw, though. Really, not all skills are created equal: Pistols and Automatics are the more common combat skills, and Perception is probably the most commonly bought skill, period. However, Incompetent: Perception and Incompetent: Pilot Aerospace give you exactly the same return, even though they don't have nearly the same amount of value.

Flaws need to have a gradiated return: the more a Flaw hurts you, the more points it should be worth. SR4.5's edge/flaw system is really a poorly-done one-size-doesn't-fit-all system, with glaring errors that can be easily demonstrated. The problem is that the system doesn't make that distinction, even though it wouldn't be hard to do so.

I get that... And though it may be a system flaw, it is not egregious. It just needs to be policed a bit. If the GM does his job, the grossest abuses will be eliminated, and then you discuss the rest. I have no problem with Incompetence, but if the player takes it for Pilot: Aerospace, I will tell him that his choice not acceptable for the campaign, and have him take something else. Simple as that. On the other hand, If I plan on running in the Space Arcologies, that might be acceptable. It is all about the expectations of the game.

I do like the Champions System (Hero System) for Disadvantages too, but again, it has to be policed. Hell, even in Fate, you have to have input and discussion on your Aspects (Good and Bad), because even there, it is about expectations, more than anything. Not Everything fits for Every Game.

[toturi]

I have no problem with Incompetence, but if the player takes it for Pilot: Aerospace, I will tell him that his choice not acceptable for the campaign, and have him take something else. Simple as that. On the other hand, If I plan on running in the Space Arcologies, that might be acceptable. It is all about the expectations of the game.

The player should only take Incompetence: Pilot: Aerospace only if it won't come up. Else it is stupidity. Or masochism. Either is incompatible with fun for most people.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The player should only take Incompetence: Pilot: Aerospace only if it won't come up. Else it is stupidity. Or masochism. Either is incompatible with fun for most people.

I disagree... If you are not wanting to be impacted, then do not take Negative Qualities at all. Expect them to have an impact in the games you play with me; I would not allow you to take Negative Qualities that would have no impact. *shrug*

As I said, your ideas are not my ideas, nor those of whom I play with. Thank you for your participation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[toturi]

As I said, your ideas are not my ideas, nor those of whom I play with. Thank you for your participation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No, thank you for your non-participation.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, thank you for your non-participation.

Its funny, you seem to be the ONLY one arguing for Negative Qualities having absolutely no impact. Why not just skip the BS and ask for/give out additional Build Points? Just give everyone extra BP's equal to the Character's Positive Qualities and ignore NQ's all together. If the character has 30 points of PQ's, they get an additional Bonus 30 BP. Seems like that would be more up your alley. Would definitely eliminate the Passive Aggressive acquisition of NQ's that have no impact whatsoever.

[Elfenlied]

Mind stopping this circlejerking, please? First it's In Debt, now it's Incompetence...

[Uli]

Seconded. The originally interesting thread is long dead.

[CaptRory]

It has certainly been demonstrated as to why the GM has to clearly communicate with his players during CharGen and police what is going on.


What's the verdict on starting cyberware? Anything to look out for? Working on my character, I did some checking and found out there is a procedure for restoring essence (though costly an time consuming) so I took secondhand basic stuff since I knew I could correct the essence loss later in my career when I upgraded everything.