Making a 4e Character: Optimization & Avoiding Traps Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It should really depend on the character's story. Ex-Elite Opposition, now a PC. Heck, Ex-Elite of the Elite Opposition, now forced by circumstance into the shadows. Not just run of the mill Red Sam but one of the best Red Sams, now ex-Red Sam.

You're right... The Characters story should MATCH the Mechanics on the sheet. You cannot claim to be an Elite and then be lacking in key skills and equipment.

Thing is... a Beginning PC cannot BE an Ex-Elite Best of the Best, there are not nearly enough points to get there. Having a 6 in one skill does not an Elite, Best of the Best in the World make. There are so many other things (just in skills alone) that would determine whether you are an Elite or Non-Elite. And that is the issue. Most characters I have ever seen that claim to be an elite are not. They are at best a Savant in a single skill (Super High-Def Specialists to be sure, but NOT an Elite, or Best in Best of the world, in their Profession), but their Sheet DOES NOT MATCH their concept, and for me, that is a big no-no. If you cannot make the stats match the concept, then your concept shoots too high and should be brought down to match what your sheet says.

And while we are on that... Match your definitions to the world. If, in SR4A, the Definition of Professional is Skill 3 (which it is), then your Skills should be 3 in all the relevant skills (Active and Knowledge) that make up the profession. They should not be 5's, nor should they be 1's. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

Rock?
Revvy?

I must be missing the connection... or I am horribly immersed
ther decade. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

From the anime Black Lagoon.

Which is pretty much Shadowrun: 1980s, minus the overt magic. Tons of bullets, explosions, insane melee and gun adepts, and a church that has more firepower than many small nations.

A Japanese sarariman office worker (known by his nickname "Rock") with a talent for social interaction and puzzle solving gets tasked with delivering a data drive through a crime-riddled southeast Asia inspired fictional region called Roanapur . His boat gets hijacked and he gets kidnapped along with the drive by a oceangoing team of mercenaries comprised of a crazy gun chick (Revy), an elite hacker, and their spec ops soldier leader. After the action filled opening caper concludes, the sarariman gets hung out to dry by his own corporation and decides to join the team that kidnapped him, becoming their Face and eventually a strategic mastermind.

Over two seasons and a miniseries they run into a wild array of colorful characters, all very distinct and memorable, many drawing inspiration from 80s action films and Hong Kong cinema. Pretty much every named character in the series could be dropped into a Shadowrun game and feel right at home.


-k

[toturi]

You're right... The Characters story should MATCH the Mechanics on the sheet. You cannot claim to be an Elite and then be lacking in key skills and equipment.

Thing is... a Beginning PC cannot BE an Ex-Elite Best of the Best, there are not nearly enough points to get there. Having a 6 in one skill does not an Elite, Best of the Best in the World make. There are so many other things (just in skills alone) that would determine whether you are an Elite or Non-Elite. And that is the issue. Most characters I have ever seen that claim to be an elite are not. They are at best a Savant in a single skill (Super High-Def Specialists to be sure, but NOT an Elite, or Best in Best of the world, in their Profession), but their Sheet DOES NOT MATCH their concept, and for me, that is a big no-no. If you cannot make the stats match the concept, then your concept shoots too high and should be brought down to match what your sheet says.

And while we are on that... Match your definitions to the world. If, in SR4A, the Definition of Professional is Skill 3 (which it is), then your Skills should be 3 in all the relevant skills (Active and Knowledge) that make up the profession. They should not be 5's, nor should they be 1's. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

I really do not see why a Beginning PC cannot be an Ex-Elite Best of the Best. The descriptors used are for skill ratings and as long as the character has a skill of that level, then he is deserving of that moniker.
Alternatively if you are referring to the description of the Red Samurai as "elite paramilitary forces", then really someone who claims to be an ex-Red Sam should have a skill set similar to that described in the book. But I would not expect him to have the same level of skills as the Red Sam in the book unless the player really wants. In fact, I would point out that there should be at least one reason why the character is an ex-Red Sam. If there are more reasons, then it makes the character that much more real. In fact, having low skills in a particular profession would prompt me to ask,"So how does he make a living? Why is he still alive? Why is he no longer an Red Samurai?" Then the answer could be,"He is really Elite with his Pistol" or "The character really has an Edge over the competition" or "He never really fully recovered from that encounter with Blood Magic." Any of the above would make sense to me.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

From the anime Black Lagoon.

Which is pretty much Shadowrun: 1980s, minus the overt magic. Tons of bullets, explosions, insane melee and gun adepts, and a church that has more firepower than many small nations.

A Japanese sarariman office worker (known by his nickname "Rock") with a talent for social interaction and puzzle solving gets tasked with delivering a data drive through a crime-riddled southeast Asia inspired fictional region called Roanapur . His boat gets hijacked and he gets kidnapped along with the drive by a oceangoing team of mercenaries comprised of a crazy gun chick (Revy), an elite hacker, and their spec ops soldier leader. After the action filled opening caper concludes, the sarariman gets hung out to dry by his own corporation and decides to join the team that kidnapped him, becoming their Face and eventually a strategic mastermind.

Over two seasons and a miniseries they run into a wild array of colorful characters, all very distinct and memorable, many drawing inspiration from 80s action films and Hong Kong cinema. Pretty much every named character in the series could be dropped into a Shadowrun game and feel right at home.


-k

Ahhh... Thank You. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I really do not see why a Beginning PC cannot be an Ex-Elite Best of the Best. The descriptors used are for skill ratings and as long as the character has a skill of that level, then he is deserving of that moniker.
Alternatively if you are referring to the description of the Red Samurai as "elite paramilitary forces", then really someone who claims to be an ex-Red Sam should have a skill set similar to that described in the book. But I would not expect him to have the same level of skills as the Red Sam in the book unless the player really wants. In fact, I would point out that there should be at least one reason why the character is an ex-Red Sam. If there are more reasons, then it makes the character that much more real. In fact, having low skills in a particular profession would prompt me to ask,"So how does he make a living? Why is he still alive? Why is he no longer an Red Samurai?" Then the answer could be,"He is really Elite with his Pistol" or "The character really has an Edge over the competition" or "He never really fully recovered from that encounter with Blood Magic." Any of the above would make sense to me.

Elite Military Training does not focus on a single skill. And when the vast majority of PC's (some players actually do it right, to be sure) get a Single skill and boost it to the Moon and then completely ignore the rest of the skills that go along with being an actual Elite Military Character, then they ARE NOT AN EX-ELITE MILITARY CHARACTER, regardless of what they may think. Simple as that. And I am sorry, but that statement covers so many characters (covering any and all other Professions that you can describe as Elite) that I have seen, that I just shake my head and weep. *sigh*

[Elfenlied]

With German 750 Karmagen you can easily build a character with competitive (12-14+) DP in all the fields a Special Forces Operator would be proficient in. Getting all of them to 18+ gets kinda hard though.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

With German 750 Karmagen you can easily build a character with competitive (12-14+) DP in all the fields a Special Forces Operator would be proficient in. Getting all of them to 18+ gets kinda hard though.

That is true, yes, but then, they are Skills in the 3-4 Range (Not Elite/Best in World Range of 5-6).
My Mercenary was built that way, and he is QUITE competitive, though only about 5-6 skills are 12+, with ~10 More at the 10-12 dp. Some 30 More are in the 7-9 DP range iirc.
He is quite GOOD (Definitely a Veteran), but NOT Elite. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Elfenlied]

The concept of skill values translating to actual proficiency needs to die in a fire, IMO, as DP is what actually matters. They should revise the table accordingly. Skill usually contributes less than 50% of a character's DP anyway.

[Cain]

You cannot say that it does not work, because it DOES WORK for me. Different Experiences and all that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And yes, Capping at 20 Works wonders. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It does not work, because in Shadowrun, more successes = better. It if works for you, that's because you've got a house rule.

Look, with 3 dice, you're expected to reliably succeed at a Threshold 1 test. So, if you're unopposed, 3 dice is just as good as 30, by your logic. Except it's not-- more successes mean you did better, even if it's mostly in a roleplay sense. In a backwards and a bizzare way, your house rule rewards rollplay over roleplay (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Elite Military Training does not focus on a single skill. And when the vast majority of PC's (some players actually do it right, to be sure) get a Single skill and boost it to the Moon and then completely ignore the rest of the skills that go along with being an actual Elite Military Character, then they ARE NOT AN EX-ELITE MILITARY CHARACTER, regardless of what they may think. Simple as that. And I am sorry, but that statement covers so many characters (covering any and all other Professions that you can describe as Elite) that I have seen, that I just shake my head and weep. *sigh*

You're wrong on this one. Elite military training produces specialists, even though they have a good grounding in other skills. For example, all SEALs can shoot nearly any gun... but only a few are sniper-grade marksmen. And if you're seeing 4.5 characters who completely ignore their other skills, then they're doing it wrong. Shadowrun is about teams of specialists, working together, so you don't need to be expert at everything. However, there are several areas where everyone has to be competent in, and ignoring those is folly.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It does not work, because in Shadowrun, more successes = better. It if works for you, that's because you've got a house rule.

Nope, You're Wrong - No Houserule. Why is that so hard for you to believe? Why do you insist that I am wrong? It is really starting to annoy me. If I get ONE NET SUCCESS I have succeeded in my action. PERIOD. YES, more is better, but I do not have to chase the DP goblin to have Fun. I do not have to have a DP that is monstrous just to have fun. I do not have to have a DP that guarantees success against my opposition (Boring). Maybe you do, but that is not MY problem.

Look, with 3 dice, you're expected to reliably succeed at a Threshold 1 test. So, if you're unopposed, 3 dice is just as good as 30, by your logic. Except it's not-- more successes mean you did better, even if it's mostly in a roleplay sense. In a backwards and a bizzare way, your house rule rewards rollplay over roleplay (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

And there you go again, talking about a Houserule. THERE IS NO HOUSERULE!!! Get over it.

If all I have is a Threshold 1, WHY WOULD I EVER chase a 30 DP (that is such a ludicrous DP that I have a hard time even talking about it, especially when 15 DP is often MORE than enough). I have no need for the excess Hits, so I don't care about the excess hits. I don't care if the excess hits results in a flourish at the end.

You're wrong on this one. Elite military training produces specialists, even though they have a good grounding in other skills. For example, all SEALs can shoot nearly any gun... but only a few are sniper-grade marksmen. And if you're seeing 4.5 characters who completely ignore their other skills, then they're doing it wrong. Shadowrun is about teams of specialists, working together, so you don't need to be expert at everything. However, there are several areas where everyone has to be competent in, and ignoring those is folly.

Having worked with a fair number of Elite Military Personnel over the years, I can categorically tell you that you are VERY mistaken. BECAUSE they are a small group, they HAVE to be able to cover multiple specialties to function the way they do, and they cannot do so with minimal skill - They are Highly trained in EVERY aspect of Military application that they Will/May encounter. Yes, you might have a few that are better in one thing, but that level of specialty is not what YOU are talking about. And it is not what I see when discussing character concepts. As for Teams of Shadowrunners, I despise the Hyper Specialist, since they are so very unrealistic in execution. I would far rather see a well executed specialist with good core competencies in their actual profession, over a boring and ill-executed one skill wonder (which I find most of them to be, BECAUSE they are doing it wrong... but you cannot tell them that because they think they are right).

EDITED: [Redacted]

[CaptRory]

At this rate I'm going to end up banned for creating the most contentious topic in recent forum history. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) Hahaha~

[Uli]

Cain, Tym, I think you both should take a step back and check your tone. Or continue via pm.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Cain, Tym, I think you both should take a step back and check your tone. Or continue via pm.

*Sigh* Probably...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

At this rate I'm going to end up banned for creating the most contentious topic in recent forum history. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) Hahaha~

Always happens...

Topics on Optimization seem to get heated after a bit. Gonna hopefully detune a bit as I go to my game tonight. Probably be a lot calmer in the morning. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[toturi]

Elite Military Training does not focus on a single skill. And when the vast majority of PC's (some players actually do it right, to be sure) get a Single skill and boost it to the Moon and then completely ignore the rest of the skills that go along with being an actual Elite Military Character, then they ARE NOT AN EX-ELITE MILITARY CHARACTER, regardless of what they may think. Simple as that. And I am sorry, but that statement covers so many characters (covering any and all other Professions that you can describe as Elite) that I have seen, that I just shake my head and weep. *sigh*

I think that as long as you can make the Thresholds that the character is expected to make, then whether you have the skill or not, I do not think having the actual skill matters.

So if he needs to do something and his Attribute is high, then maybe he doesn't need the skill. In fact, if the skill is only used occasionally and if he is not the primary guy for it, I'd even say that he doesn't even need the Attribute for it to be high, he could make do with high Edge.

[Elfenlied]

At this rate I'm going to end up banned for creating the most contentious topic in recent forum history. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) Hahaha~

Start a topic about Infected on these boards and grab some popcorn as the shit storm approaches. Even if the topic is about optimizing an Infected character, people will use it as an excuse to voice their hatred.

[Sendaz]

Start a topic about Infected on these boards and grab some popcorn as the shit storm approaches. Even if the topic is about optimizing an Infected character, people will use it as an excuse to voice their hatred.

Some say the high ups almost went with Twilight vampires for 5th edition to try and snag a new market, but thankfully cooler heads prevailed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[CaptRory]

They should have gone with Sparkly Vampires. *Rolls up Buffy the Cyborg using stakes propelled from a rail gun*

[Glyph]

Personally, I do agree that too many characters are made with the background of ex-special ops, who don't fit it. One skill of 6 doesn't make you the equivalent of a Red Samurai. Starting characters have to make tradeoffs between effectiveness in their primary role and versatility in secondary roles. When they have both, they have achieved parity with the spec ops types and will likely be considered prime runners. That said, you don't have to be an ex-Red Samurai to be as good as one at one skill. That is where the skill examples fail - they give broad types (politician, special forces, go-ganger) which are an amalgam of skill, related Attribute, and complementary skills and advantages. They should be describing the skill itself.

Someone with a skill of 6 in pistols is someone who spends a lot of time at the range, who has used a pistol in actual combat, who can make minor aiming adjustments or change out a clip without even needing to think about it - this is someone who has invested a lot of time learning to shoot a gun, but it does not automatically follow that this person will also know rotor aircraft, wilderness survival, assault rifles, etc. Freelance hitters, bounty hunters, or Mafia enforcers might have high skills at dealing violence but not be as well rounded outside of that area. The character might even be someone you wouldn't normally associate with that skill, such as a hacker who is a real gun nut and can rattle off stats for them all day, or a face who is a cold, skilled shot because she learned the hard way that she is her own last line of defense.

[CaptRory]

As an aside, skills deteriorate in real life, so you could roll up someone who was an elite whatever that has just been out of the game for awhile, maybe abusing some stuff so they're not starting in their prime.

[Udoshi]

Nope, You're Wrong - No Houserule. Why is that so hard for you to believe? Why do you insist that I am wrong? It is really starting to annoy me. If I get ONE NET SUCCESS I have succeeded in my action. PERIOD.

Someone is forgetting how threshold tests work, as well as Extended's successive rolling penalty.
1 net hit won't cut it for.... pretty much all the important shit.

There is plenty of room to find a middle ground between 3 dice and 30 dice though.


Also, seriously? Nine pages of arguing and literally no one's added more info to the first two posts. For shame.

[psychophipps]

Someone is forgetting how threshold tests work, as well as Extended's successive rolling penalty.
1 net hit won't cut it for.... pretty much all the important shit.

Also, seriously? Nine pages of arguing and literally no one's added more info to the first two posts. For shame.

There is a difference between "net" and "gross". One net hit is one hit beyond what was required for a successful result.

And I have learned a great deal of information, namely there is zero need to shoot for 15+ dice to be "good" at something in SR4A. In fact, right around 8-9 dice points pretty well at being a pretty skilled individual at the given task.

[Elfenlied]

There is a difference between "net" and "gross". One net hit is one hit beyond what was required for a successful result.

And I have learned a great deal of information, namely there is zero need to shoot for 15+ dice to be "good" at something in SR4A. In fact, right around 8-9 dice points pretty well at being a pretty skilled individual at the given task.

And once you need to perform under pressure (i.e. negative modifiers), the 8-9 DP character is pretty much screwed.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And once you need to perform under pressure (i.e. negative modifiers), the 8-9 DP character is pretty much screwed.

Depends entirely upon what you mean by "screwed."
I see it as "challenged." Especially since your opposition will also have to deal with the pressure. After all, your character's DP's are not adjusted in a vacuum. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[psychophipps]

Depends entirely upon what you mean by "screwed."
I see it as "challenged." Especially since your opposition will also have to deal with the pressure. After all, your character's DP's are not adjusted in a vacuum. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

^^^ This.

I'm actually *harsher* with my house rules for penalties than RAW and my players still succeed just fine without ridunkulous dice pools, thanks.