Street Grimoire is Live, "You're messin' wit' my Mojo, man!!!" Options

[SpellBinder]

Proofreading is done via Google Docs. We all add our comments, which the editors in turn comment on, so there's no doubt that they've seen it. And since it's online, it pretty much stays there forever. Our file access is limited, but I can still see the locked file for the SR5 proofs (and, in our defense, many of the corrections we made never made it to the final copy). I don't know why it happened, and under a NDA I can't give examples. But I can confirm that it did.

Understandable that you can't give a full disclosure (having signed many NDAs in the past myself), but I do appreciate knowing at least this much. Helps understand why the final products are the way they are, even though errors and such are being caught.

[Cain]

wow, that's pretty depressing.

i had assumed that something that stupid had to be a joke. well, as the saying goes: truth is stranger than fiction, because fiction has to make sense.

this is a whole new low for them to sink to.

After the Great Freelancer drama of years past, I hold the opinion that they mistreat the Shadowrun line. They don't treat their Battletech lines this way, this sort of shoddy quality control wouldn't fly there.

Understandable that you can't give a full disclosure (having signed many NDAs in the past myself), but I do appreciate knowing at least this much. Helps understand why the final products are the way they are, even though errors and such are being caught.

Well, saying that we use a free online product for proofreading isn't the same as giving away company secrets. That said, I don't actually *know* what the editor's decision-making process is. I can only confirm that they received corrected documents, even if they're not using them.

[Shortstraw]

Both well defined in 4th edition Street Magic, why not keep them in this edition?

Yes, but I can't find the usual line that says NOT FOR PC'S (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) for the twisted paths. So time to make that Toxic Blood Mantis shaman for S5 missions (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

[Samoth]

The solution I've worked with is to stop spending money on Catalyst products until they fix their issues, fire the problem people, or sell the IP. It's worked so far in skipping Run N Gun and Street Grimoire since neither are essential books and reviews are generally very bad. The fact that they are nickle and diming by already having ANOTHER magic book in the works is just an added insult. 15 years ago I had no problem spending my (at the time) meager money on every Shadowrun product I could find, but these days with far more expendable income I can't bring myself to buy poorly edited documents that the product line developers refuse to edit in any meaningful way, even when the community have provided nearly all the fixes for them.

[Jaid]

having another magic book coming out isn't so bad in and of itself. I mean, if they had, say, 320 pages of material but were only printing 288 pages (I think that's a typical cut-off point, not 100% sure, but it's just an example anyways), they could release the extra as a small PDF release.

it's the part where they didn't put the stuff that they should have into the main book, and put stuff in the main magic book that requires the PDF expansion that bothers me. but, much like you, it doesn't bother me as much as it would if I had actually decided to keep buying shadowrun products.

which I won't at this rate. I have limited money, and lots of things that I can choose to spend it on, many of which hold far more interest to me at this time than getting new shadowrun material when the production is so poorly done.

[Uli]

Guys, I know parts of the new books are less awesome than they could have been and CGL is mainly out to make money (no surprise there). But having a family member who works as an editor/project manager in a huge publishing firm I know that the publishing landscape is changing dramatically. Profits are breaking down all the way round, print is the biggest crisis since its invention, and no one down proper editing and proof reading. That scares (and bothers) me too, but I don't give a small company a hard time for that.[/theeconomy]

Back to topic: I like this book. Crunch and fluff feel very nice so far and I like its look. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Samoth]

Guys, I know parts of the new books are less awesome than they could have been and CGL is mainly out to make money (no surprise there). But having a family member who works as an editor/project manager in a huge publishing firm I know that the publishing landscape is changing dramatically. Profits are breaking down all the way round, print is the biggest crisis since its invention, and no one down proper editing and proof reading. That scares (and bothers) me too, but I don't give a small company a hard time for that.[/theeconomy]

Back to topic: I like this book. Crunch and fluff feel very nice so far and I like its look. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There is no excuse for a primarily print-based company that produces a game that heavily relies on an intricate set of rules to flat out refuse to fix their errors for over a year.

[Temperance]

There is no excuse for a primarily print-based company that produces a game that heavily relies on an intricate set of rules to flat out refuse to fix their errors for over a year.

What's worse is the freelancers work their asses off to get the errata collated, pass the errata up the chain, and it just sits there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) So it's not like they don't know.

-Temperance

[AccessControl]

There is no excuse for a primarily print-based company that produces a game that heavily relies on an intricate set of rules to flat out refuse to fix their errors for over a year.

I haven't gotten time to check yet, but has ANY of the first errata been applied to the PDF version of the CRB yet?

[psychophipps]

What's worse is the freelancers work their asses off to get the errata collated, pass the errata up the chain, and it just sits there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) So it's not like they don't know.

-Temperance

Which really only makes the situation worse. It basically tells the customer base, since such stories are all-too-common are becoming more and more public, that the company is run by people that so strongly don't give a shit that they can't even be arsed to check the time stamps to make sure that they're grabbing the most recent copies of the book they paid people to write to send to the printers that they are paying to print poorly editted books.

So to really spell it out for everyone, they paid people to write and proof the book, and they don't give a shit. They then paid a company to print the poorly edited and proofed book, and they still don't give a shit.

So the question becomes, "When will you start finding this unacceptable?"

[binarywraith]

I haven't gotten time to check yet, but has ANY of the first errata been applied to the PDF version of the CRB yet?

Not that I'm aware of. Haven't gotten notification of a new version for download, at any rate.

Which really only makes the situation worse. It basically tells the customer base, since such stories are all-too-common are becoming more and more public, that the company is run by people that so strongly don't give a shit that they can't even be arsed to check the time stamps to make sure that they're grabbing the most recent copies of the book they paid people to write to send to the printers that they are paying to print poorly editted books.

So to really spell it out for everyone, they paid people to write and proof the book, and they don't give a shit. They then paid a company to print the poorly edited and proofed book, and they still don't give a shit.

So the question becomes, "When will you start finding this unacceptable?"

I have long since. I'm done paying Catalyst for SR content, period. End of story. They don't give a shit on a corporate level despite having people who are very passionate about the line working for them, and I won't reward that attitude or the quality of work they're producing with my money.

I'm actually about to see if a few folks local to me want to play some SR2.

[mrslamm0]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif) Yeah this kinda sucks because I am finding myself liking the SR 5 rules a lot more then the SR 4 ones. So it's either go back to 4th or keep buying these books ( Probably just PDF's if I do) Yeah I could hack the 5th rules into 4th but im not sure I have that kinda determination like I once did for that kind thing...

[binarywraith]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif) Yeah this kinda sucks because I am finding myself liking the SR 5 rules a lot more then the SR 4 ones. So it's either go back to 4th or keep buying these books ( Probably just PDF's if I do) Yeah I could hack the 5th rules into 4th but im not sure I have that kinda determination like I once did for that kind thing...

That's the thing a friend of mine who's GMing a 5e game here keeps giving me shit about. Yes, the 5e rules are fixable. However, I'm not in highschool anymore, and really don't feel much need to pay for rules that I'm going to have to rewrite essentially from scratch in a lot of places to get them functional and internally consistent.

[mrslamm0]

That's the thing a friend of mine who's GMing a 5e game here keeps giving me shit about. Yes, the 5e rules are fixable. However, I'm not in highschool anymore, and really don't feel much need to pay for rules that I'm going to have to rewrite essentially from scratch in a lot of places to get them functional and internally consistent.

Actually I have ran a few games already and so far I haven't found very many rules I feel I need to change. My real issue is the editing and such. I was just trying to avoid having to splice together SR 4.5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Cain]

Guys, I know parts of the new books are less awesome than they could have been and CGL is mainly out to make money (no surprise there). But having a family member who works as an editor/project manager in a huge publishing firm I know that the publishing landscape is changing dramatically. Profits are breaking down all the way round, print is the biggest crisis since its invention, and no one down proper editing and proof reading. That scares (and bothers) me too, but I don't give a small company a hard time for that.[/theeconomy]

Back to topic: I like this book. Crunch and fluff feel very nice so far and I like its look. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The difference is, the proofreaders are actually paid to do their work. Not in cash, but paid nonetheless. It makes no sense to pay people to proofread your work, then to completely ignore it. That's not the economy, that's a waste of money.

[Larsine]

The difference is, the proofreaders are actually paid to do their work. Not in cash, but paid nonetheless.

Well eventually we are paid...

[Critias]

FWIW (and believe me, I understand your frustration), a backstage discussion has been started specifically about SG and how to nip this shit in the bud and keep it from happening again (the crossed wires/overlap between books especially). We're doing what we can, where we are.

[Isath]

What's up with the new mentor spirits, granting adepts 1 pp worth of powers instead of the .5 pp the ones from the core book offer (raven being the odd exeption)?

[Sendaz]

Spiritual Inflation you know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

They probably just judge the disadvantages as being greater so the rewards are better, though one can debate this.

[Isath]

I agree... one can debate this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Shemhazai]

Proofreading is done via Google Docs. We all add our comments, which the editors in turn comment on,

Is that a good way to go about that? Has anyone there considered a wiki? We could create a community one at Mistakes in printed material - Errata and corrigenda. Here's a nice example.

[Larsine]

Is that a good way to go about that?

It works. I can see other proofers comments, they can see mine, we can comment each others comments, and that's really all we need.

[Jaid]

It works. I can see other proofers comments, they can see mine, we can comment each others comments, and that's really all we need.

well, that plus the people in charge of actually applying the proofing corrections to the published product actually also reading it and then making the corrections. but switching to a wiki won't fix that anyways.

[SpellBinder]

It works. I can see other proofers comments, they can see mine, we can comment each others comments, and that's really all we need.

Any way to tell if the higher ups are actually reading the comments the proofers are leaving?

[Jaid]

Any way to tell if the higher ups are actually reading the comments the proofers are leaving?

that won't be fixed by any system i've ever heard of, so what difference does it make?

whether they're seeing them and not applying them, or not seeing them and not applying them, the result is the same and the reason why is likely the same. i mean, if they cared enough to make the changes, they'd put in the effort to see the feedback. if they don't care, it doesn't matter whether they see the feedback or not.