What if the Shiawase Decision had gone in a different direction? Options

[binarywraith]

I can see that we have very different ideas about what the Megacorps are in SR. From what I'm gathering, you see them as an extension of today's corporations. Sure they bribe people to get what they want, blackmail, and occasionally break laws, but they're mostly playing by the rules as we see them today. I see them from the Cyberpunk perspective where they do all the aforementioned but I add kidnapped, brutalized, raped, pillaged, and killed to get where they are today. These are not nice people. If you're talking to high-up lawyer from the Big 10 as a governmental official, he's not just a lawyer, he's the lawyer that weaseled, threatened, and killed (most likely through proxy, but maybe not) to be where he is today. Which is common in SR corporations what with their Machiavellian machinations and Ubermensch "nothing is forbidden as long as you win" mentality. In our example, this merciless murderer that is perfectly willing to do pretty much anything to get what his corp wants, is telling several high ranking governmental figures the way of the world when you are a part of the Big Ten, and then there is everyone else below them on bent knee because the government fucking with them will only be a blip on their annual spreadsheet.

As for costs, the stuff is already in place. They blow it up and simply walk away. There is no occupation. There is no protracted insurgency. Maybe a week of high-intensity operations and the corps have Miller Time, leaving behind a country that used to be at the forefront if technology but is now a really fancy looking Myanmar. Your country being completely buttfucked is an example to everyone else, nothing more.
As for "guns pointed at everyone", it's kinda funny how all the really important folks were quietly transferred to other offices, on vacation with their families out of the country, sick relative abroad, etc and the guys they need to run the week-long offensive operations replaced them.
High-power transformers and other high-end infrastructure is made by a very limited number of firms and are hideously expensive. It's very interesting how all these firms are owned by the Corps, and any independent installation companies are told up-front that if they want to stay in business, they best be checking that the places they install at are Oked by their suppliers of this equipment.
Nationalization is great, when the corps you deal with are a pack of chumps willing to spend millions and/or billions on the company assets without any sort of contingency plans to make sure that such assets are unusable in the case of such a clumsy, and ultimately stupid, attempt by the host nation. Megacorps in the cutthroat world of SR are not that naive and they are exponentially more ruthless.

Now, this is a pretty extreme example we have here as I described it. It really wouldn't go down that way except in very extreme circumstances, but it does demonstrate what could happen if you start poking the Megacorp bear in the eye with that nationalist stick and think that it's like talking to IBM today.

You seriously think the Corporate Court would let that happen? They're quite aware that Zurich Orbital would eat an ICBM the moment it looked likely. The First Rule of war in the modern age is never to threaten someone with weapons of mass destruction with their own annihilation. Someone in the system is crazy enough to damn the consequences and fire anyway.

[kzt]

ICBMs are so low tech, and provide too much warning. Gigawatt lasers are more likely.

[psychophipps]

You seriously think the Corporate Court would let that happen? They're quite aware that Zurich Orbital would eat an ICBM the moment it looked likely. The First Rule of war in the modern age is never to threaten someone with weapons of mass destruction with their own annihilation. Someone in the system is crazy enough to damn the consequences and fire anyway.

True enough. I also did qualify my example as all of the Megas agreeing to start turning the screws. This would basically be an end-game scenario where the all corps decided they had to go to guns to shut down an entire country and then blackball the rebuilding.

There are limits to MegaCorp power. My point is that the Megas being what they are in SR have gone to making all of the low-down and dirty tricks today's Corps have done in the third world and basically made it "business as usual" and cranked it up to 11. The governments can do what they want...after checking with the Megas. Not because the Megas have everything and everyone in their pocket (but it's close enough to true to always be a consideration in your plans), it's because they hold a quasi-symbiotic relationship with the various governments simply because the government being there makes the Mega's job easier.

Blowing up Zurich Orbital would be a complete suicide run for the country that did it. Not only would you crash the world economy and have every other country ready and willing to toss a punch into the boot party, but you would have every Mega pulling out everything in your country in a true scorched earth scenario. It's nice to imagine the entire world simultaneously giving the social finger and declaring open season on the Megas, but you're talking about a world where the country count is ours times around 4, there are far more and ever smaller slices of the pie to go around, and the true economic powerhouses of the entire planet are the ten groups you just declared war on...and they have everything important rigged to go up in a fireball.

[Shortstraw]

ICBMs are so low tech, and provide too much warning. Gigawatt lasers are more likely.

If you use 1.21 Gigawatt's you can literally blast them back to the stone age (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[psychophipps]

If you use 1.21 Gigawatt's you can literally blast them back to the stone age (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yeah, but do you really want to know what happens to human history if it starts with Megas?

[kzt]

Blowing up Zurich Orbital would be a complete suicide run for the country that did it. Not only would you crash the world economy and have every other country ready and willing to toss a punch into the boot party, but you would have every Mega pulling out everything in your country in a true scorched earth scenario. It's nice to imagine the entire world simultaneously giving the social finger and declaring open season on the Megas, but you're talking about a world where the country count is ours times around 4, there are far more and ever smaller slices of the pie to go around, and the true economic powerhouses of the entire planet are the ten groups you just declared war on...and they have everything important rigged to go up in a fireball.

Well sure. So you hack an Aztechnology ASAT laser using an Ares network, via a corp site that you broke into at 3am.

[psychophipps]

Well sure. So you hack an Aztechnology ASAT laser using an Ares network, via a corp site that you broke into at 3am.

And the code is set for "000000000000" just in case communications break down because they want the weapons to be ready "just in case"...

Pretty sure it takes more than a quick 3am hacking job to set the orbital lasers to blow up the single most important piece of combined corp property on-, or off-, planet. Very likely a custom OS, using a bandwidth not usually used for matrix connections, and it has to have received a pre-arranged signal only sent with a very specific set of sequences.

[Shortstraw]

...using a bandwidth not usually used for matrix connections...

Not if they want their wireless bonus.

[binarywraith]

And the code is set for "000000000000" just in case communications break down because they want the weapons to be ready "just in case"...

Pretty sure it takes more than a quick 3am hacking job to set the orbital lasers to blow up the single most important piece of combined corp property on-, or off-, planet. Very likely a custom OS, using a bandwidth not usually used for matrix connections, and it has to have received a pre-arranged signal only sent with a very specific set of sequences.

You don't even need to muck with it. Spirit movement powers and the right bit of mojo is enough to accelerate a Ford Americar to a significant fraction of lightspeed. Well past escape velocity.

[nezumi]

I'd see this as going the other direction from armed combat.

Government has the power. Corps have the money. Together, they're best friends! The Koch Brothers buy off congressmen and governors. The Shiawise decision is really an excuse; the PR cover for something that was going to happen anyway. It was just a question of putting the issue before their judges. Yes, the corps like having governments pay for the military. However, they also like a direct and efficient command structure. But there's no rule that when the corps own the military that they have to pay for it. I imagine the corps own everything, but the governments still pay for it with taxes (with elected officials getting their private yachts and retirement provided for by the corps).

In other words, it's basically modern day US without the veneer.

[Warlordtheft]

It kind of sucks when the government responds by arresting the board of directors and every c level executive, and taking their family into "protective custody" as well as having police seize and occupy every company factory and other facility. Which is precisely the low end of what they would do. The high end has the next board meeting at the executive offices abruptly ending in a sound and light show.

Of course when governments does pull stuff off like this, foreign investment capital tends to flee the country. This causes the nations economy to pretty much tank, since it can't pay its bills.
Countries with cash flow problems like this are more concerned about internal strife. The corporate big wigs and VIPs (those that are important skill wise such as their nuclear fusion engineers) have all left the country and all financial assets moved out as well.

Whose going to maintain the reactors? What assets can the country go after. The corporate court will just tell them to buzz off and any assets are likely in a financial institutions the Mega owns anyway.

more than likely the corp in question will bribe enough people, start a low level guerrilla war, or just assassinate the the problem leaders. Then get back to business of making money.

[kzt]

Of course when governments does pull stuff off like this, foreign investment capital tends to flee the country. This causes the nations economy to pretty much tank, since it can't pay its bills.
Countries with cash flow problems like this are more concerned about internal strife. The corporate big wigs and VIPs (those that are important skill wise such as their nuclear fusion engineers) have all left the country and all financial assets moved out as well.

Whose going to maintain the reactors? What assets can the country go after. The corporate court will just tell them to buzz off and any assets are likely in a financial institutions the Mega owns anyway.

more than likely the corp in question will bribe enough people, start a low level guerrilla war, or just assassinate the the problem leaders. Then get back to business of making money.

Is it easier for a corp to get elected officials out of office, or for elected officials to organize a nice pogrom for the corp leadership? And yeah, if a corp wants to abandon a few tens of billions worth of infrastructure I suspect it isn't hard to find someone who will pay for it.

[binarywraith]

Is it easier for a corp to get elected officials out of office, or for elected officials to organize a nice pogrom for the corp leadership? And yeah, if a corp wants to abandon a few tens of billions worth of infrastructure I suspect it isn't hard to find someone who will pay for it.

See also why Ares has positioned themselves as 'America : The Corporation!'.