Do Shiva Arms help in melee? [4e], Can they be used to subdue and attack at the same time? Options

[Twizzler]

I'm am trying a melee character out, and I almost have him fleshed out, just need to know if shiva arms offer any sort of advantage in melee combat?

For example, can I subdue with the lower arms, and punch in the face with the upper?

[Jaid]

you should be able to split your dice pool more ways to make more attacks. whether that's useful or not is debatable at best...

[Twizzler]

Would it be half the dice pool for the lower arms?

[Medicineman]

You divide Your Pool by the # of Attacks.
1 No Dachi, 1 Katana , 1 Wakizashi = 3 Attacks and You split as You like. Doesn't need to be even.
And each Attack in the same Iniphase gives an additional -1 to his Attack pool (its kinda hidden in the Arsenal Sourcebook right after the Martial arts, expanded combat Rules)

For example, can I subdue with the lower arms, and punch in the face with the upper?

Yeah,ImO you could/should split , but If You're successfull with subduing I'd give you a +2 Bonus because You're in a superior position

with a Dance in superior position
Medicineman

[SpellBinder]

Hidden really good, as I am not finding that -1 Attack modifier you mentioned. Closest I can find is a -1 situation modifier for Defense if the attacker is using two melee weapons simultaneously, but nothing where the split attack pool for multiple melee weapons takes any penalties. That is, of course, not including the -2 Off Hand modifier for those attacks (with modifiers applied after the pool is split). (Reference the chart on page 162, and the entry on Two Weapon Melee Combat on page 163 in Arsenal).

[Medicineman]

Closest I can find is a -1 situation modifier for Defense if the attacker is using two melee weapons simultaneously

in the German Arsenal it's the passus " two weapons in close Combat" its the Last Article before dangerous Environment in my German Arsenal Page 171 (sorry If I can't help out with better english)
" being attacked by two Weapons results in getting -1 Defense for the first Attack and -2 for the second Attack (and subsequently an additional -1 for further Attacks)
it also says that a char that parries with more that one Weapon a +1 Bonus (and ,logically, +1 for additional Weapons)
But Weapons must be of Reach 0 or 1
(OK, Guys , not with No Dachi or Claymores ! )

He who dances with only short Weapons
Medicineman

[Glyph]

Shiva arms don't offer much in the way of tangible bonuses. Contrast that to satyr legs, which give an impressive increase to movement rate and a +2 bonus to gymnatics (which is explicitly stated to include gymnastics dodge).

[SpellBinder]

in the German Arsenal it's the passus " two weapons in close Combat" its the Last Article before dangerous Environment in my German Arsenal Page 171 (sorry If I can't help out with better english)
" being attacked by two Weapons results in getting -1 Defense for the first Attack and -2 for the second Attack (and subsequently an additional -1 for further Attacks)
it also says that a char that parries with more that one Weapon a +1 Bonus (and ,logically, +1 for additional Weapons)
But Weapons must be of Reach 0 or 1
(OK, Guys , not with No Dachi or Claymores ! )

He who dances with only short Weapons
Medicineman

Yeah, that's for "being attacked" by someone using two weapons at once, not attacking with two weapons. Essentially when you're defending against someone using two melee weapons, you take an additional -1 modifier to your Dodge pool on top of the -1 for defending against multiple attacks.

(I used Google Translate, which I know is not 100%, but the translation from the German version is very close to the English print.)

[Twizzler]

Would that negative modifier be in effect for multiple attacks from shiva arms?

[Mantis]

Sure. After all, when you are shot by the same person you take the penalty to dodge for the second shot. Source of the attacks doesn't matter, just how many you need to defend against.

[Stahlseele]

For what they cost, Shiva Arms give ridiculously little advantages that are actually anchored in the rules somewhere..
You don't even get more essence so you can replace them with cyber-limbs without being dead immediately either.

[CaptRory]

Imagine an ambidextrous surgeon with them. He could be his own medical team.

[Twizzler]

But, if I were to understand how combat works, correctly, then after I make a normal attack, with shiva arms I can then attack again for a reduced dice poll, correct? So two attacks in a single initiative phase, right? Or did I somehow misunderstand?

[Glyph]

Making multiple attacks in one action requires you to split your dice pool. Shiva arms don't really give you much of an in-game advantage. The rules for multiple targets don't even require using your off hand; someone with a knife can attack multiple targets as easily as a six-armed changeling with six knives can. The rules for two-weapon combat in Arsenal let you make multiple attacks on a single target, who gets a small penalty (in addition to the penalty for defending against the second attack), but it not penalized nearly as much as the attacker, who has to split his dice pools and possibly suffer off-hand penalties. It is a logical rules interpretation (maybe even a logical house rule) to allow someone with two sets of arms to be treated as having two weapons, for purposes of this rule. Still, it is rarely an optimal tactic, especially for an opposed dice contest.

If I had to house rule Shiva arms to give them an actual, tangible in-game advantage, I would probably give them a +1 or +2 bonus for climbing, subdual combat, and blocking/parrying.

[Stahlseele]

To put it in MMO Speak:
SR is a game about huge 'Alpha Damage, one or Two-Shotting enemies, not about DPS and whittling them down with a death of a thousand cuts.

You could make Man-Spider with the arms.
Just get MORE Climbing Claws than you usually could get on a Character with only 4 limbs. But that's about it really.
That or holding stuff in your hands and having other hands free to do other stuff with. Make it a Big Stron Character.
Hold 2 shields and still hold a Melee Weapon and a Gun?
And that's with 4 arms. Make it 6 Arms and you can still do all of that while climbing up stuff too . .

[SpellBinder]

But, if I were to understand how combat works, correctly, then after I make a normal attack, with shiva arms I can then attack again for a reduced dice poll, correct? So two attacks in a single initiative phase, right? Or did I somehow misunderstand?

Had this in mind with my last post, but omitted it. As I understand the multiple melee attack, and including for Shiva arms, here's a scenario:

Shadowrunner with Shiva Arms, Agility 4, Blades 4, & Off-Hand Training (Blades)* vs. Corporate Security from SR4a (Reaction 4, Dodge 3). Base off this is 8 dice to attack and 7 dice to dodge.

With a long sword in each hand, Shadowrunner can take their 8 total dice for Blades and split it evenly among all four hands evenly for 2 dice to attack and make 4 attacks at said Corporate Security guy. The result would look like this:

Attack 1 : 2 dice to hit, 6 dice to dodge
Attack 2 : 2 dice to hit, 5 dice to dodge
Attack 3 : 2 dice to hit, 4 dice to dodge
Attack 4 : 2 dice to hit, 3 dice to dodge

And that's assuming that Corporate Security guy hasn't had to dodge any attacks yet, and each attack results in at least one hit on two dice (the odds are against you here). If any attack completely misses, then Corporate Security doesn't have to defend and the dodge pool doesn't get reduced.

But now here's were it gets fun, because Specialization, weapon foci, or attuned weapons (see Street Magic, page 54) are all modifiers and are added in after the dice pool is split. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) But we're also talking about a more limited character focusing in this direction this far.

* The Maneuver is to negate the -2 DP modifier for all attacks with off hands with bladed weapons, which otherwise someone with Shiva arms will suffer on three of those four hands (the Ambidexterity quality does the same, but for one hand each time the quality is taken).

[Wounded Ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGY-t0gkwPc

I keep thinking of the Goro special throw where he holds you up in the air with the two bottom arms and pounds on you with the upper ones.

[SpellBinder]

Or for a different perspective, with some anamatronic special effects: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcUXFnXetQU

[pragma]

My players found that the best "after splitting the pool" bonus came from stun batons. There you have the advantage of a +2 dice to hit for making a touch only attack which applies to each attack.

If specialization also falls into that category (new rule to me, but a previous poster mentioned it), then you can pick up a cool +4 on each attack you make and multiple attacks start to look much more attractive.

Counterinitutively, multiple attacks are best for when your opposition isn't expecting you. It's surprisingly unreliable to 1 shot a bad guy without a defense pool in melee (even with shock gloves), but the extra base damage stacks up quickly if the target can't defend.

[Medicineman]

If specialization also falls into that category (new rule to me, but a previous poster mentioned it), then you can pick up a cool +4 on each attack you make and multiple attacks start to look much more attractive.

Specialisation, customized Grip, Reach Bonus, Tacsoft Bonus are all added AFTER splitting, because they're situational Mods.
But dont't forget also Penalties like sight, Wounds, etc are subtracted AFTER splitting the Pool (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

with a Split Dance
Medicineman