 SR thread at RPG.net, And some, uhm, jabs thrown at Dumpshock. |
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 May 6 2004, 04:46 PM
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#1
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Shooting Target  Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992  |
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May 6 2004, 04:53 PM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Meh.
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May 6 2004, 04:54 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 309 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,548 |
I can't post there anymore. IIRC, I got banned for celebrating Strom Thurmond's death in Tangency. Buh.
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May 6 2004, 05:09 PM
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#4
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
What a bunch of dorks. They were all crying cause the rules are to hard. Cry me a fraggin river.
Go play D20 if you want simplistic, un-realistic game play. Don't get me wrong, I like D&D but it is a no brainer to play. I like how complicated Shadowrun is, I like that you have to read to play it. You have to invest some energy in learning the setting if you want to get the full experience. As for the slam against DSF.... there just jealous cause FanPro listens to it's fans. |
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May 6 2004, 05:12 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 673 Joined: 30-March 04 Member No.: 6,206 |
I have to admit they are right about the supplements. I had to go over and grab my friend's M&M when I read the predator 3 had smartlink 2, and had no ideas what its' stats were.
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May 6 2004, 05:14 PM
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#6
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
Yep, because that's limited to Shadowrun. The all-mighty D&D never requires multiple supplements. Ever.
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May 6 2004, 05:16 PM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
edit: damn... misread again...
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May 6 2004, 05:20 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Anyway... you are in no way required to have both CC and MM to use the vast majority of the options presented in those books. IIRC, there are only 2 weapons in CC with a built in SL2, and the SL2 modifications in MM can be applied to any of the core guns.
The same thing applies to all of the other sourcebooks... while, sure, there are some things in a good number of the sourcebooks that reference others, those other books are certainly not required to use the sourcebook you have - having more sourcebooks just increases the utility of the whole set. |
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May 6 2004, 05:34 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 7-January 03 From: Wilton NH Member No.: 3,872 |
Besides the kick-ass (can I say ass?) setting, what draws me to Shadowrun are the (somewhat incomplete but very elegant) rules.
I like skill-based level-less class-less systems as I find them to be a more believable progression of skills, instead of every Joe Decker getting the ability to validate acounts at level 4. I like throwing more than 1 die at a time... and in comparison to GURPS often more than 3 dice at a time. It has the advantages of White Wolf's count successes model (I know SR came first!), and the level of success that brings. I like not having the the extremes of the hitpoint system, were heroes are more than likely to jump off a cliff to get to the bottom than to use a rope since they know they'll survive, and can just use that wand o' healing to get them back to perfect health. Why on Earth! would someone want a d20 version of Shadowrun? Without some major rules changes you would lose the gritty feeling of a true Shadowrun game. It would simply be a game of acrology crawls.... for the next big pay data. I do think though that FanPro needs to somehow stress the ability to play the game with only the BBB, which seems to be the majority of the discussion of problems over there. As far as making the rules more accessible, the Quick Start Guide really isn't that bad for a beginner. Additionally, some more software liscensing, or even a movie would do wonders for Shadowruns sales. BTW, Where was the Dumpshock Slam? Maybe I'm too thick skinned to have seen it. Edit: In reference to the comments on that board about rules-creep. It seems pretty common that level-less/class-less systems suffer from rules-creep. GURPs is just as guilty as Shadowrun in that regards, even White Wolf had that problem to some degree. And most classed/leveled systems seem to suffer from power-creep, ironically White Wolf falls into this one too.... Power-creep though I think has more to do with not allowing people access to all the aspects or abilities a character can perform until "higher" levels, whereas in Shadowrun, or GURPS, you can pretty much do everything from the start, but just not necissarily be "Great" at it. |
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May 6 2004, 05:42 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 309 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,548 |
I agree with you all about the rules...I fuckin' LIKE 'em complex. Keeps the ol' noggin in workin' order. However, the guy who said that it was too cartoony these days does have a point. I prefer the grittier atmosphere of the older stuff (especially the art), and I would probably punch Prescott in the face if I ever met him (not really).
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 6 2004, 05:45 PM
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#11
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Guests |
Since ego-stroking is bound to prompt some people to read it, I'll spare them valuable seconds:
I guess this guy's never heard of ShadowRN. |
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May 6 2004, 05:50 PM
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#12
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Only system I fund too complex in the BBB was the Matrix rules. For pete sake you had to get one of the matrix books to even find a definition of stats on a deck (like sensors, what a sensor rating 4 meant over a sensor rating 2, etc)
otherwise it's fine as is. |
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May 6 2004, 06:01 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 7-January 03 From: Wilton NH Member No.: 3,872 |
Personally, I see Shadowrun in two distinct lights: One is the old Tim Bradstreet, gritty neo-modern futuristic fantasy that I like to envision my games in, and the other is the more cartoon/super-hero esque one that Shadowrun has become.
I don't deny that by simply changing the camera filter, I can easily switch the world back and forth for my players or myself for that matter. I think they both have merit in that though. Both appeals to different types of folks, and both are available to portray when running a game. It gives it a greater depth and range of situations. Sure I often prefer the harsh reality of the near future, but sometimes nothing can beat the unintentional but innate humor in the antics or your players that really represents the cartoon aspect. |
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May 6 2004, 06:36 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 746 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 459 |
huh. I don't consider Shadowrun to be particularly realistic or gritty in its current incarnation (the encumbrance rules and explosives should dispell ANY notions of realism). It has successfully transitioned from an old school CP2020 with elves
to a quasi-transhumanistic nanopunk/biopunk setting. I don't see what the problem with a Shadowrun d20 would be. It would certainly spank the crappy cyber-supplements that currently exist. |
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May 6 2004, 10:07 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963 |
No, the almighty D&D does not require multiple supplements. One of the things they changed in 3rd edition was the policy on requiring ownership of supplements to make use of more supplements. They never require you own anything other than the core rules books to make full use of any new supplement that comes out. The exception was that they relented and put a page into the Epic Level Handbook regarding using Psionics at epic levels at the insistence of the author of the Psionics rules. Shadowrun's rules are difficult because each of the four major areas of SR - Physical rules, matrix rules, rigger rules, and magic rules - Often appear to have been designed completely seperate from each other. For fun, compare how you go about running from, fighting, and detecting other people when you are on foot, astrally projected, driving a car, and jacked into the matrix. |
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May 6 2004, 10:13 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 30-May 03 From: Tulsa, OK Member No.: 4,652 |
I've never had a problem with the different systems. Doing any of those things in each situation is completely different and not at all like doing it in any other, except for the goal. Using one generic system for all possiblities would make Shadowrun's already abstract system completely useless in my opinion. Now, that's not to say some of the things have faults, but overall I think things are handled well. The sourcebooks referencing each other can be annoying sometimes, but the way the different systems for the different parts of the game relate to each other I think it's a nessecary evil. At least until you combine the BBB and all the 'core' sourcebooks into one single rules-set in a single book. Which would be rather nifty to do at some point I think. Although, it might make things a bit complicated for the new players... |
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May 6 2004, 10:52 PM
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#17
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I have to disagree. SR's system is definitely a mess of things no one bothered to try and keep consistent on any level. The impenetrability of the rules— not out of sheer complexity but out of sheer idiocy— is probably a huge turnoff for initial players. Complex rules are much more tolerable when they're intuitive and well designed.
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May 6 2004, 11:52 PM
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#18
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
You just keep on telling yourself that. Self-delusion is a beautiful thing. Or should I point out a stat-block for just about any character in a supplement, most of whom make use of prestige classes or feats coming from a wide range of books? Or how about feats or prestige classes with requirements of other feats or prestige classes from -- you guessed it -- other books? It's exactly the same thing. They're just as bad, if not worse, as practically every other RPG on the market. It's the entire point of supplements. |
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May 7 2004, 12:23 AM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
I do like Shadowrun, and prefer a more realistic set of rules, but have to agree with the assessment that the rules can often be overly complex without necessarily adding realism.
I GM for a game that meets every couple of weeks, with experienced players, and we still have things we can't figure out cannon almost every week. Most of the time I just decide what makes the most sense to me (GM fiat) and follow up on this forum to get the official ruling afterward. A related question: How complex do you think is too complex? Ideally, how many hours/weeks/years should it take before you know what you're doing without having to look things up? |
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May 7 2004, 12:26 AM
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#20
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MechRigger Delux Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,151 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Hanger 18, WPAFB Member No.: 1,657 |
Well it's no chartmas..no wait,table-mast....I MEAN roll-mas...I MEAN role-master... High end realism at the cost of your sanity and time!!
Scanned crossreferenced PDFs...that's the true solution... :P |
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May 7 2004, 12:30 AM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
For me, one of the nice things about Shadowrun is that each rules group does have a flavor all its own. Sure, it can be intimidating to new players (I've been playing it forever and still haven't quite got everything down), but it's certainly fun. And once you start getting bored with one aspect of the game itself, you realize that you have several other aspects to keep your interest piqued.
Playing a rigger is a completely different experience from playing a magician, which is a completely different experience from playing a decker or a sammy. It's great. :) |
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May 7 2004, 12:50 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963 |
I really would like you to point out those supplements made by Wizards of the Coast containing stat blocks for characters that used material from books other than the core books and the one it was listed in. I haven't been keeping up with 3.5 supplements, but I do have an admirable collection of 3.0 books. I went through all the stat blocks listed in Tome & Blood, nope, all the characters used PHB and T&B material only. I looked at the Manual of the Planes and the Githyanki/Githzerai in particular. Their 'psionics' is little more than some magic spells usable at will. If you purchase the Psionics Handbook, a great deal more detail goes into them...similar to how Adepts can buy Power Points to advance their power for 20 karma each, then once you get Magic in the Shadows they give you all the juicy details on Initiation and such. In the Epic Level Handbook, the characters all have equipment and PrC's that are either from the DMG or the ELH as far as I can tell. I just checked out Wizard's website and looked over some of their web supplements. This month, they have as part of their NPC Closeup a Barbarian/Dragon Samurai at three different levels. Previous months are similar - The characters are just core classes, with at most one PrC. The fun part? They list all of the PrC's abilitys right in the stat block, you don't even need the book the PrC is from in order to use the stat blocks for any of these NPCs. I looked over the equipment of these characters, looks like it's all core. I've never bothered with any Forgotten Realms supplements. Perhaps there are some examples of this tucked away in there. Edit: I changed 'Magic in the Streets' to 'Magic in the Shadows'. Streets on the brain and whatnot. This post has been edited by Modesitt: May 7 2004, 02:10 AM |
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May 7 2004, 01:19 AM
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#23
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
I actually found the rules quite understandable when I learned them. And I'm not joking. I really felt that everything was understandable. I'll admit that it wasn't always laid out well, but everything always seemed thought through and balanced. I've felt for a while that many of the complexities that people see are probably because they tried to learn the game from the inside out -- they were playing at the same time as learning. And, while that works, you need the support structure from the rulebooks to pull it off. SR has always been, for me (YMMV) a game where you have to spend a lot of time reading before the game is played, unlike D&D where I really learned all the rules during gameplay. Not sure that made any sense. It works in my head, but I just had play practice for Shakespeare and that tends to screw anyone up :) |
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May 7 2004, 02:24 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
I can't believe we're calling users of another RPG web forum dorks. Well, I guess I can, but I think we should admit that we're all dorks, too. Maybe even more so because most of us seem to like our really complicated rules (I love 'em). You're right on about how SR challenges it's players, by the way. |
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May 7 2004, 03:33 AM
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#25
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
A unified rules system for the different branches of stuff would be horrible. Agh. There are some people who need crucifixion now.
~J, zealot |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 19th July 2026 - 04:49 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.