Background count and Drain Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'll take the example from my last character that went to chicago and met BGC3.

My sustaining focus F4, meant to give me the initative passes to act on similar effectiveness as my sam and adept friends is now a F1 foci, not capable of sustaining even the base threshold for granting a single IP. Even if BGC was 2 I was far better off taking a cheap pill of Jazz and enjoy having 2 IP when the rest of the group had 3 or 4. That alone is some -50% usefulness for the character. It made things harder for sure but that is expected in chicago but not around every single corner as Street Grumble suggests.

With magic reduced to 3, I was already looking at 8-9 dice spellcasting, sustaining that F2 detect life spell meant I'd be down to 6-7 dice on further casts. Note that an F2-3 detection spell is trivial to resist and will only give very limited information. The limit of 3 hits on the test, minus the hits on all resist tests and the range reduced from 240 meters in BGC 0 to mere 60 meters in BGC 3 means I'll be able to fire my Slivergun at them before I even spotted them with detection.

My stunbolt used to be 6 damage for 3 drain with a good chance to hit (10-12 dice versus will of 3-ish + counterspelling) to F3 dealing maybe 3 damage if any at all at the same cost. doing 2-3 boxes is very irellevant when enemies shoot long bursts that deal 12+ net hits on a regular basis. It meant I could maybe take down an enemy in just 4 hits if all connect, but with only 1 IP per turn it means my Sam friend acts no less than 16 times, shooting 32 attacks in the time it takes me to try and wear down one target.

My "Oh shit" alternative, F11 stunbolt for 4 (physical) drain due to overcast was rendered harmless by being just F6 as maximum and only gave me physical drain for an attack dealing damage like my old BGC 0 attack.

My invisibility can't even beat the basic Object resistance required to be invisibility. And I can't summon spirits since a F3 spirit would instantly disrupt and I'd have to oversummon an F6 with risk of massive physical (unhealable) drain to grant -3 concealment where we previously had good mileage from the concealment power to help make sneaking easier etc. Levitate at low force can't beat OR either.

Why even bother nuking myself for stun(or physical) damage that can't be healed by any means to do unreliable damage and unusable support ?

The moment we hit BGC 2 I tossed everything magic out the window, took a jazz and draw my gun. I was reduced to a 300-karma mundane with some points in pistols. BGC 1 was doable, 2+ meant I stopped caring.


I'm perfectly fine with being reduced to useless for shorter periods of time, to give GM access to some "try solve this without using your normal tactic and gear" just like the group's sam might be without his gun during one run or we might have to hide our cyber or gear to even get on an airplane to do some job. It is great fun to challenge the player's to do things in new ways but if BGC is common it just makes a mage boring to play because it is not a smooth scale. It is waaaaaay to steep and way to evil.

Did I have fun in Chicago? Yes, lots It was a fun challenge to feel weak! But it got reaaaally old when we visited Lagos. Combat isn't very interesting when you only get to do something every 4 initiative passes for 6 weeks in a row. I'm glad I at least had the sanity to spend some points in Pistols. I never thought I'd have so little use for "stunbolt" in a campain with so much combat considering how ridiculously overpowered Stunbolt is as a combat spell.

Signed, Surukai the tiger shaman with a trusty old Slivergun.

I agree, Back Ground Count can be onerous at times, but that is the price you pay for being a Mage. That said, I have always believed that an Awakened character MUST be viable outside his Spells and Adept abilities. For very much the reasons that you detail above. Maybe I am just weird that way. And yes... LAGOS SUCKS!!!

That said... I am curious... How many spells did you have on your 300+ Karma Mage?
I never had the issues you describe above because I had only 2 Combat Spells (Spirit Bolt - A Restricted Stun Bolt Spell, and an AOE Blast Spell (like a Grenade)) and I always carried a few doses of Jazz for when the Increased Reflexes Spell was less than ideal. My DP's for Manipulation Spells was 13 and all other classes of Spells were DP 9. Magic was a 5. When push came to shove, I had an AR that I used in Combat Zones, and always carried a backup pistol, just in case. As well as 2 Flash-Bang Grenades. Spell wise, I had over 60 Spells, so I was never without options (Aspected Mana Static works in your favor in this regard), even if they were limited options. Many useful spells only require a net hit or two, even some of those Detect spells. Yes, as some would say, more hits is better, but even minimal hits works out well, in a lot of cases. Otherwise, he was a Grade 4 Initiate (Masking, Extended Masking, Flexible Signature, Centering).

Signed - "Jenks," Black Magician of Adversary, Forbidden from Killing via Magic.

[Stahlseele]

(Aspected Mana Static works in your favor in this regard)

do i really have to say anything here Tym? ^^

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

do i really have to say anything here Tym? ^^

There is nothing actually wrong with the spell, especially when it can provide you with some options. Particularly when the GM/Table actually use BGC as it was meant to be used (rather than a cinematic hindrance). Not something that you can cast all over the place, obviously, but it is useful from time to time. I think over the years of game play, I actually used it just under a dozen times or so. Came in handy in Lagos (against the Ghoul Assault), though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Yes, well, i will agree that your group seems to be the only one with enough bgc to actually make that spell reasonable to allow.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, well, i will agree that your group seems to be the only one with enough bgc to actually make that spell reasonable to allow.

I don't generally have issues with Background Count, or its application, in SR4A. If the chart has doubled in SR5 (how the hell do they rationalize that one), well, I might start to have issues with it impacting us more than is necessary... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Our GM is pretty on the ball though, so the doubled chart may never be an issue.

[SpellBinder]

... If the chart has doubled in SR5 (how the hell do they rationalize that one)...

Because the skill range has also doubled? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

I'd probably just cut all BGC values in half, rounding down, if I ever run anything in SR5 (which is still likely, well, never).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Because the skill range has also doubled? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

I'd probably just cut all BGC values in half, rounding down, if I ever run anything in SR5 (which is still likely, well, never).

If that is their rationale, it is horrible. Skills went above 12 in Editions previous to SR4. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[SpellBinder]

Yeah, I know. Wasn't a serious answer, either (hence the wacko emoticon).

[cip]

Yeah, I just wanted to know about how you guys handled BGC, but ookayy.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

For what it's worth, our group decided to apply BGC to all tests linked to or enhanced by magic (drain, enhancement spell, all adept power enhanced tests), but centering. So with centering the adept can ignore lost dice from BGC up to his initiate grade as can the mage concerning his drain. Also, you can't lose more dice than you gained from magic under our house rules.

Will play test soon, let's see how it works.

[Shemhazai]

Note that if a quickened spell that a character payed karma for enters a BGC of its force, it goes away permanently. That in addition to all the ways to detect magic and to make the awakened entirely mundane, what more should be done? Awakened abilities aren't free. If you don't like them, just run a game without them.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Note that if a quickened spell that a character payed karma for enters a BGC of its force, it goes away permanently. That in addition to all the ways to detect magic and to make the awakened entirely mundane, what more should be done? Awakened abilities aren't free. If you don't like them, just run a game without them.

Thought that I saw something in SR5 Street Grimoire that contradicts that.
But in SR4A, that is definitely the case. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sendaz]

Thought that I saw something in SR5 Street Grimoire that contradicts that.
But in SR4A, that is definitely the case. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Think you may be thinking of pg 32 of the SG

Anchored rituals and quickened spells if they have not expired revive themselves at 1 point of Force per hour, up to their preexisting Force.

By expired for quickened I believe they mean it has not been knocked entirely down to zero by BGC, though I suppose they could have worded it better.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Think you may be thinking of pg 32 of the SG


By expired for quickened I believe they mean it has not been knocked entirely down to zero by BGC, though I suppose they could have worded it better.

That is the one... Thanks Sendaz.
Yes, it could have been worded better.

[Jaid]

to be fair, if you have the spell at a decent force then background counts capable of completely destroying the spell should be both fairly noticeable, and quite rare.

though of course, that doesn't hold quite as true if they decided to just arbitrarily doubled background count everywhere relative to earlier editions.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

to be fair, if you have the spell at a decent force then background counts capable of completely destroying the spell should be both fairly noticeable, and quite rare.

though of course, that doesn't hold quite as true if they decided to just arbitrarily doubled background count everywhere relative to earlier editions.

Exactly... On both counts.

[Moirdryd]

It's worth noting that while the In Universe Scale goes from -24 to 24 with Absolute numbers being used for effect (with zero being the standard for most of the Sixth World) the examples scale only runs from 1 to 18. Now coming from 3rd that's still a HUGE scaling. However BGC does fluctuate (something more rare in MitS) it's also the blanket now for everything from just BGC to Aspected BGC, Mana Warps, Ebbs, Voids, Storms and everything. Flicking through MitS you used to start taking damage in a BGC 6 location (this was automatically a Mana Warp), now it's BGC 13 to begin getting hurt.

From my reading of it all 1-3 is what you're likely to see "Regularly" with places like the Redmond Barrens typically having an aspected BGC 1. Any Aspected BGC can be acclimatised to (this is basically the first function of "HomeGround" quality) and it doesn't take all that long if it's somewhere you're likely to go a lot.

Now... 4-6 mentions a whole bunch of places (like MIT&T, Talismongers stores etc) but in most cases you won't notice because of acclimitisation as a lot of the effects to get a 4-6 are essentially Tradition based and if the BGC matches your tradition then you're acclimatised. So your favourite Talismongers got a BGC of 4, doesn't matter to you because you're a Shaman after Shamanistic reagents etc. Want to hit the joint magically and your a Mage? well then you'd be well advised to spend a few weeks popping in and out and getting used to the way mana flows there. In most cases you're looking at individual buildings, or even locations within buildings. Of course places like Chicago are going to be a base 4 and up where it gets worse.

7 and upwards you are looking at Major locations of differing properties, almost all referencing as Ley Lines and Power Sites (or MAJOR bad event or "world" opinion altering places) and becoming more unique and obscure/isolated as the ratings rise. The number of locations for 16-18 could probably be counted on one hand as it is essentially referring at that point to low orbit.

It's got some serious bite to it, but it's also not insurmountable as a vast majority of the stuff out there (as far as Runner's are likely to come up against with any regularity) will be aspected it seems. Do your legwork, get some prep in and even if that Azzie Lab is BGC5 you'll know what to expect and may even have found a way around it (or even to use it).

[Shinobi Killfist]

So . . do you think it will actually be used by GMs in game?
Or do you think it will be used "for cinematic effect because it'd be unfair against magic users otherwise"?

That would probably depend on how often they totally shut down the other archetypes with similar things. If I had noise 6 all over the damn place every time someone tried to hack, I'd be more inclined to have background count in a lot of places. Outside of super optimized people though most the challenges seem to be balanced against no or few penalties though. Getting mutliple marks on a moderate system isn't easy with no penalties, so I only use noise and other extra penalties for cinematic effect. If the players are in a place where a fight is likely to happen I don't shut down cyber and strip people of their gear unless I'm doing a cinematic effect for the street sam. So yeah I only use background count for cinematic effect but hey if people want to play a game that is 90% about adjusting for penalty dice more power to them.

[Jaid]

Now... 4-6 mentions a whole bunch of places (like MIT&T, Talismongers stores etc) but in most cases you won't notice because of acclimitisation as a lot of the effects to get a 4-6 are essentially Tradition based and if the BGC matches your tradition then you're acclimatised. So your favourite Talismongers got a BGC of 4, doesn't matter to you because you're a Shaman after Shamanistic reagents etc. Want to hit the joint magically and your a Mage? well then you'd be well advised to spend a few weeks popping in and out and getting used to the way mana flows there. In most cases you're looking at individual buildings, or even locations within buildings. Of course places like Chicago are going to be a base 4 and up where it gets worse.

so if i've got a quickened spell, i'd better stay the hell away forever unless it's aspected to my specific tradition?

(bearing in mind that many talismongers won't cater to only one tradition, for them having a BGC that high should be a major deterrent because their most powerful potential customers - ie the ones that are initiated - have reasons to specifically avoid their shop to the greatest extent possible. this seems poorly thought-out, particularly considering the initial rules were made with the assumption that chicago, the setting for missions, has a typical BGC of 2... not 4).

[SpellBinder]

And astral concerts will suck. Sure, tempo may have given that venue a bad rep in the early 2070's, but now when the BGC gets to +6 for a sold out concert the whole idea is gonna die by 2080. There's no way you're gonna be able to ensure that everyone is of the same tradition for such an event, especially those who take a drug so they can actually experience an astral concert when they have no other means of doing so normally.

[Shemhazai]

Maybe finding a place with favorable BGC is the key to actually creating a focus.

Talismonger's shop... How about pay the lifestyle to get an alchemical workshop; would a BGC start to accumulate in your house?

Shouldn't sacred ground like shrines, cathedrals or Stonehenge actually be helpful to magic?

And I hate the words "background count" and "aspected", so...

Mana Level: Positive is a bonus to magic, negative is a penalty, and zero is a dead zone where magic doesn't work at all. Places with no bonus have no Mana Level rating.
Exalted (Tradition): Grants a bonus to a tradition. A place may have any number of Exalted ratings, or none at all, for example Exalted (Hermetic): 4, Exalted (Shamanic): 2.
Desecrated (Tradition): Deals a penalty to a tradition. A place may have any number of Desecrated ratings, or none at all, for example Desecrated (Hermetic): 4, Desecrated (Shamanic): 2.

These three ratings would allow great flexibility.

Edit: Alternatively, to avoid confusion, a dead zone could be notated as "Mana Level: Void".

[Moirdryd]

Sure I think the numbers are a little crazy but they're not as insurmountable as once they were (again SR3) acclimatisation is an easy way around such things if a little time consuming. You can still totally draw power from Power Sites and LeyLines etc too, but again it's going to take some time to get to do that. In fact as long as its not a Mana Ebb you can Align yourself with the local domain of BGC and gain benefits. In fact you totally want to do Summoning etc in such places as they add to the Limit of your magical actions.

Astral Concerts will hit a 4 and given that to watch an astral concert there's no dice involved that's hardly a massive issue. Using it to hide and evade from astral pursuit or dodge assensing (a suggestion in the book) is a good idea though.

Like I say, I never touched SR4 so cannot comment on comparisons but in SR3 BGC was1-5 with anything over that being a full manawarp shutting down stuff pretty quick, dealing damage every Combat Turn, effecting Drain pools etc. Also back in 3rd (maybe Bull can correct me) you didn't want to go anywhere near Chicago iirc if you were Awakened without several grades of initiation because that BGC there killed you.

[SpellBinder]

In SR4 I had a street level group run into a blood mage in a +3 BGC aspected towards that mage. The two magicians in the party (one of them an NPC I was running) never had any issues with spirits in previous runs (with the elf face technomancer even having dealt a good Attack Of Will once), but that +3 made that fight the first one that lasted longer than one or two rounds as the whole party had issues with just two otherwise low Force spirits.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Sure I think the numbers are a little crazy but they're not as insurmountable as once they were (again SR3) acclimatisation is an easy way around such things if a little time consuming. You can still totally draw power from Power Sites and LeyLines etc too, but again it's going to take some time to get to do that. In fact as long as its not a Mana Ebb you can Align yourself with the local domain of BGC and gain benefits. In fact you totally want to do Summoning etc in such places as they add to the Limit of your magical actions.

Astral Concerts will hit a 4 and given that to watch an astral concert there's no dice involved that's hardly a massive issue. Using it to hide and evade from astral pursuit or dodge assensing (a suggestion in the book) is a good idea though.

Like I say, I never touched SR4 so cannot comment on comparisons but in SR3 BGC was1-5 with anything over that being a full manawarp shutting down stuff pretty quick, dealing damage every Combat Turn, effecting Drain pools etc. Also back in 3rd (maybe Bull can correct me) you didn't want to go anywhere near Chicago iirc if you were Awakened without several grades of initiation because that BGC there killed you.

Acclimation is a bad rule IMO. You have to live weeks in the background count for it to work. So it basically makes area based ones like Chicago pointless if its part of your campaign, but takes far too long for any run I've ever heard of. If I'm running a Chicago game I don't want the players to basically get a much stronger version of the astral home ground quality for free just because they have lived in and around the CZ for a month. OTOH I don't want artificially inflated numbers to hit the players because I decide to send them to Chicago for a run.

[Glyph]

Acclimation seems to favor the people shadowrunners run against. For any corporate enclave nasty enough to have a bit of a background count, their magical security won't be affected by it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Acclimation seems to favor the people shadowrunners run against. For any corporate enclave nasty enough to have a bit of a background count, their magical security won't be affected by it.

Which is generally how it works anyways. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)