Why does a lower Essence only effect healing spells?, Just a thought... Options

[Temperance]

So the issue, in your opinion, is that a purpose-built "fuck mages" character...umm...fucks mages? Isn't that kind of like being angry that your Porsche goes fast?

I don't have any issue at all. I was simply trying to explain what I saw as Stahlseele's thought process. Which I see I was off target.

I think the rule is excessive, but I know better than to defend magic on Dumpshock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) So generally, I lurk.

@Temperance:
I am not yet fully awake, so i don't really understand that posting . .
I was going with the whole "you need on average 3 dice for soak for every hit on the attacker" and went backwards from that.
So if the attacker loses 5 dice and thus 5 hits, then you have, in effect, just gained around 15 dice in soaking mechanics.

But if the attacker loses 5 dice, he's only losing 1.67 hits. So I guess I'm just not following you.

-Temperance

[Draco18s]

So if the attacker loses 5 dice and thus 5 hits, then you have, in effect, just gained around 15 dice in soaking mechanics.

5 dice -/> 5 hits.

[psychophipps]

5 dice -/> 5 hits.

But 5 dice sans Edge produces 5 hits less than 1/3 of 1% of the time...

[Smash]

Before people start engaging in the 'Oh my god, the writers are such NUBZ, it's totally logical that low essence should make you resist magic better' discussions, they might want to think about the implications of such a mechanic.

I thought about it a while ago and I really don't think the game gains anything by it's introduction. For example:

1) Mental stats become dump stats for Samurais. I know that's what a lot of people seem to want but there should meaningful drawbacks to having all your mental stats at 2. Every Samurai becomes a 2 dimensional cyber-zombie and I don't want to play that game.

2) While samurais get a boost out of it some other archetypes get left further behind. Remember the 'Rocker' or the 'Detective' archetypes? Well they become even more pointless as they are still resonably susceptible to magic and don't bring much to the table in terms of combat.

There becomes a point where games become table-top wargames which was evident upon the release of 4th Ed D&D and you will notice that 5th Ed is basically a reprint of 2nd Ed. Going back to basics seemed to be the way to go at that point.

[psychophipps]

Before people start engaging in the 'Oh my god, the writers are such NUBZ, it's totally logical that low essence should make you resist magic better' discussions, they might want to think about the implications of such a mechanic.

I thought about it a while ago and I really don't think the game gains anything by it's introduction. For example:

1) Mental stats become dump stats for Samurais. I know that's what a lot of people seem to want but there should meaningful drawbacks to having all your mental stats at 2. Every Samurai becomes a 2 dimensional cyber-zombie and I don't want to play that game.

2) While samurais get a boost out of it some other archetypes get left further behind. Remember the 'Rocker' or the 'Detective' archetypes? Well they become even more pointless as they are still resonably susceptible to magic and don't bring much to the table in terms of combat.

There becomes a point where games become table-top wargames which was evident upon the release of 4th Ed D&D and you will notice that 5th Ed is basically a reprint of 2nd Ed. Going back to basics seemed to be the way to go at that point.

Funny, I see point #1 with mages all the time but for physical stats. It is bad for Sammies to be blunt force instruments only, which I agree with. The world of Shadowrun is far too complex for anyone to truly thrive in the shadows if all they can do effectively is sneak around and make things scream and bleed. But the "glass cannon" effect of mages has long been an in-game trope that is not only accepted, but is pretty much expected.

Dumping mental stats for Sammies are asking for trouble with the possible exception of Charisma (pretty much a dump stat anyway outside of a face archetype or shaman for Drain rolls) and maybe Logic (if no technical skillset is expected). Intuition is linked to Initiative and Perception which are pretty much critical for an effective Sammy and a low Willpower is easy to screw the Sammy over with just because of the smaller Stun track, the effect of Stun damage through armor, and the fact that simple stare-downs in bars will show him being a little bitch with Notoriety to match.

Point two is strongly dependent on the game you play. If you use social effects of bio/cyberware and/or equipment in your game, including bio/cyberware legality, then it's a largely a moot point. Having an Essence in the toilet certainly helps against Magical Force and Essence-based mages, but all of the standard physical-effect spells have 100% effectiveness. A Power 5 Lightning Bolt with 4 hits still sucks and has zero penalties, in other words.

I just think that it might be interesting to add a bit of "fuck the mages" to the laundry list of "fuck the mundanes" that has been a constant trope in SR for quite a while now.

[Surukai]

I think it's because he's seeing it like this (Stahlseele, please correct me if I'm wrong):

1. Sorcerer has 15 dice.
2. Then 0.01 Essence removes 5 dice.
3. Sorcerer now has 10 dice.
4. Average success on 10 dice is 3.3 hits on the initial casting roll.
5. Assuming Magic Resistance 4, Sorc is at 2 hits on the ave roll.
6. Sam gets his actual resistance test to lower this further.

So the Sam only needs 6 dice on average, to completely negate anything a mage throws at him. (If my math is right.)

-Ariketh

Your math is not right.

A dice pool of 6 wins against a dice pool of 15 (!) a full 5% of the time. That is not that uncommon.

Mooks with pistols 6 hits the ninja with defence 15 one out of twenty shots (even when using an acc 4 gun!). Players always gawk at their dice when they roll 2- hits on their big defence pools but it does happen, a lot and it isn't even unlikely.

To get the true chances of success versus a pool of a certain size you have to sum all the outcomes

Sum_n=1 to Skill for : Chance attacker rolls n * chance defender rolls at least minimum of (LIMIT, n).

And, as a reminder: the chance to roll exactly n hits with k dice is, in excel format COMBIN(k, n)*(2/3)^(k-n)*(1/3)^n

The reasoning is basically the chance to roll exactly n hits in a row followed by k-n (the rest) misses, times the number of ways you can rearrange the hits and misses.

I made a full table of all this when I examined the effects of limits, the difference between accuracy of various weapons against various levels of enemies and to prove that grenades as per RAW are retarded. An attack pool of 10 dice has 78% chance to make a direct hit with a grenades against _any_ target. The same dice pool has a mere 65% against a target with only 6 dice defence (someone with just 3 reaction and intuition) and 23% hit chance versus 12 defence and 12% versus 15 dice defence. But, that is another topic so nevermind:)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Grenades are lethal for a reason. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Just like Actual REAL Rockets and Missiles are Lethal. Which make them less fun for actual games, but that makes no never mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But you are right... Different Topic for Different Times. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Draco18s]

Your math is not right.

[math]

Just so you know, he wasn't comparing 6 to 15. He was comparing 10 to 10.

Sorcerer has 15 dice.
[stuff you ignored]
So the Sam only needs 6 dice on average

While 6 does does work against 15 5% of the time, that wasn't what he said. He said that "with essence removing dice from spellcasting" the Sam would have a 50% chance against 15 dice whilst only having a willpower of 6.

[Koekepan]

I've been thinking about this one for a while, and here are my thoughts on it:

I think that mana based spells as well as essence manipulation spells should be harder, because there's less to target. If healing is less effective, so is mind reading, mental manipulation and so on.

On the other hand, none of this would make greasing the floor under a cyberzombie any more difficult or less effective, so what it really implies is that magicians of all types would have to think a bit harder about their tactical approach.

It doesn't make the cyberzombie invulnerable to magic, but it means that the magicrun aspect of things is constrained.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I've been thinking about this one for a while, and here are my thoughts on it:

I think that mana based spells as well as essence manipulation spells should be harder, because there's less to target. If healing is less effective, so is mind reading, mental manipulation and so on.

On the other hand, none of this would make greasing the floor under a cyberzombie any more difficult or less effective, so what it really implies is that magicians of all types would have to think a bit harder about their tactical approach.

It doesn't make the cyberzombie invulnerable to magic, but it means that the magicrun aspect of things is constrained.

I have always agreed with this approach, but sadly it has yet to be implemented.

I am a big proponent of diversifying the options/tactical thinking of Magicians, and there are hundreds of spells that hardly ever see the light of day due to most Magicians taking the same exact spells, time after time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Temperance]

Just so you know, he wasn't comparing 6 to 15. He was comparing 10 to 10.

While 6 does does work against 15 5% of the time, that wasn't what he said. He said that "with essence removing dice from spellcasting" the Sam would have a 50% chance against 15 dice whilst only having a willpower of 6.

Pretty much. Though WP wasn't what I specifically had in mind, with the fact that indirect spells have larger resistance pools. IE: Sorcerer has 10 spellcasting dice. Sam has 10 defense dice (6 from his pool, 4 from Magic Resistance). Assuming average hits at 33%, Sam ignores magic.

I wasn't trying to get fancy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-Temperance

[binarywraith]

Grenades are lethal for a reason. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Just like Actual REAL Rockets and Missiles are Lethal. Which make them less fun for actual games, but that makes no never mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But you are right... Different Topic for Different Times. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Grenades aren't lethal anymore, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

After Run & Gun, they're strictly an initiative reducer, as everyone will immediate action move out of their blast radius.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Grenades aren't lethal anymore, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

After Run & Gun, they're strictly an initiative reducer, as everyone will immediate action move out of their blast radius.

Which is sad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Draco18s]

I imagine they're still lethal to anyone who can't.

[Sendaz]

Grenade launcher with a 3 shot BF option and it intentionally scatters them slightly to decrease the chance of you getting entirely clear of all of them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I imagine they're still lethal to anyone who can't.

There should be absolutely no dodging of Launched Grenades. Impact means detonation. Though I know it is not fun to be on the receiving end of that (IRL OR GAME), which his why they work the way they do in Game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)