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> Dunkelzahn = Bad Guy?
TheBigDLives
post Jul 24 2014, 05:51 PM
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So, while one of the things I love most of all about Shadowrun is one's freedom to interpret events as one wishes and to be exposed to many different opinions on current events (at least in the first few editions), I have always thought of Dunkelzahn as, well, a pretty good guy, for a dragon. Everything I've ever read about him (and I've read quite a lot) seems like he was at least somewhat dedicated to the common weal. All things considered, I tend to think of it as a good thing that he walked the Earth.

Yesterday, however, I came across something very upsetting to me while reading Dragons of the Sixth World. Captain Chaos prefaces the section on Masaru, another dragon trying to cultivate a positive image, with these harsh words:

"Dunkelzahn, as good as he seemed, was able to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. It won't happen again."

Ouch. If Dragonslayer or some random git said this, I wouldn't mind, but Captain Chaos was generally very moderate and well-informed, and even, in other works, expressed approval of Dunkelzahn's activities. What on Earth is he talking about here? What did Dunkelzahn do that was so terrible that Captain Chaos would say something so awful about him six years after his death?

I must know if I'm missing some crucial part of the picture. Please help if you can.
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Stahlseele
post Jul 24 2014, 06:03 PM
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Hiding the Danger of the Horrors/Blood-Magic/Aztlan/Insect-Shamans
Hiding the Truth about Ghostwalker probably.
He was engaging in large scale MetaHuman experimentation. Granted, it was for the good of the people, but still . .
There is no good and bad, no black and white, in the Universe of Shadowrun. It's all grey with a bit darker grey towards the other end.

He openly took somebodys life away in his will for a month, stripping him off his SIN and actually putting out a bounty on his head i think.
And you know, draconic nature, so probably has eaten his share of metahumans as well . .
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fistandantilus4....
post Jul 24 2014, 11:15 PM
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Try The Forever Drug. It's been a looong time since I read it but as I recall it had to do with the formula Dunk wanted everyone injected with, that may or may not have possibly changed everyone's metatype into some kind of drake race. Or done something else entirely. As it never actually happened it wasn't really clear. Lowfyr foiled his plans.

Also some rumors of Dunk making deals with certain bug spirits to hunt other bug spirits. That's all from his will bequest to Anny Penchyk, who he likely knew to be a mantis spirit (after everything that happened in the Super Tuesday runs.

So a number of things he did could certainly be at least gray areas. Makes him more interesting IMO.
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binarywraith
post Jul 24 2014, 11:22 PM
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QUOTE (TheBigDLives @ Jul 24 2014, 11:51 AM) *
So, while one of the things I love most of all about Shadowrun is one's freedom to interpret events as one wishes and to be exposed to many different opinions on current events (at least in the first few editions), I have always thought of Dunkelzahn as, well, a pretty good guy, for a dragon. Everything I've ever read about him (and I've read quite a lot) seems like he was at least somewhat dedicated to the common weal. All things considered, I tend to think of it as a good thing that he walked the Earth.

Yesterday, however, I came across something very upsetting to me while reading Dragons of the Sixth World. Captain Chaos prefaces the section on Masaru, another dragon trying to cultivate a positive image, with these harsh words:

"Dunkelzahn, as good as he seemed, was able to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. It won't happen again."

Ouch. If Dragonslayer or some random git said this, I wouldn't mind, but Captain Chaos was generally very moderate and well-informed, and even, in other works, expressed approval of Dunkelzahn's activities. What on Earth is he talking about here? What did Dunkelzahn do that was so terrible that Captain Chaos would say something so awful about him six years after his death?

I must know if I'm missing some crucial part of the picture. Please help if you can.


Editorial drift. Dunk's motives have been retconned several times over the years.
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SpellBinder
post Jul 25 2014, 12:08 AM
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Dunkelzahn's Secrets, page 32: "For a period of ten days beginnin on 14 February 2057, Lars J. Matthews will cease to possess any legal status. He will be stripped of all evidence of legal existence, including SIN, credsticks, DocWagon contract, bank accounts and so on. To the individual or group who ends Lars J. Matthews' physical existence during those ten days, I leave all of Matthews' assets and 1 million nuyen for a job well done. If Mr. Matthews survives and can prove his identity, his legal status and all possessions will be restored to him. Haven't you heard? Never deal with a dragon, Lars."

Doesn't exactly sound like a nice guy there, but then we are talking about a great dragon. Big D had so many things in his will that seem nice and generous, and a few that are quite malicious (I wonder if Tara Bills survived her three 'accidents' a week for a year).

And don't forget my favorite, a 1 million nuyen bounty on all blood and toxic mages delivered alive to the Draco Foundation. I'm sure Aztechnology will forever cry foul on that one.
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Sengir
post Jul 25 2014, 12:12 AM
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QUOTE (TheBigDLives @ Jul 24 2014, 07:51 PM) *
Yesterday, however, I came across something very upsetting to me while reading Dragons of the Sixth World. Captain Chaos prefaces the section on Masaru, another dragon trying to cultivate a positive image, with these harsh words:

"Dunkelzahn, as good as he seemed, was able to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. It won't happen again."

Ouch. If Dragonslayer or some random git said this, I wouldn't mind, but Captain Chaos was generally very moderate and well-informed, and even, in other works, expressed approval of Dunkelzahn's activities. What on Earth is he talking about here? What did Dunkelzahn do that was so terrible that Captain Chaos would say something so awful about him six years after his death?

Besides what Binary said, a bit of unreliable narrator applies: That is the in-character voice of an anarchist talking about somebody who used any leverage available to him to achieve the goals he decided to be worth it. Including running for president, with the intention of guiding/shepherding/cajoling people into a better (as defined by him) future.


QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 24 2014, 08:03 PM) *
Hiding the Danger of the Horrors/Blood-Magic/Aztlan/Insect-Shamans
Hiding the Truth about Ghostwalker probably.

After being told in no uncertain terms that he'd better keep his snout shut. Basically, the standard discussion of "stick to your principles but risk to be silenced forever" versus "work with the system, hoping to change it from the inside instead of merely legitimating it" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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TheBigDLives
post Jul 25 2014, 03:04 PM
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People keep bringing up the little bit in his will about that one guy he temporarily stripped of his SIN and put a bounty on, but that's no reason to take fifty years of do-gooding (and several dozen deeply positive bequests) and label it all a sham. First off, we have no idea what that guy did to earn/deserve it (he did make a deal for it, after all) and, more importantly, it was revealed in a con game with that very 'bequest' as its subject that the whole thing was done at the request of the man in question, in order to ferret out a doppelganger. Dunkelzahn was doing him a big favor with that bequest, and it worked. One more good deed for him, even though it didn't seem like it at the time.

As for 'hiding' the truth about insects/horrors/whatever, that's nothing that literally every power player in the entire world isn't guilty of, and for good reason. Even fairly wise people like Ehran and (sometimes) Harlequin are in agreement on that one.

The only thing that's been brought up so far that I didn't know about was the 'injection' thing. I hadn't read that particular book, but that /does/ seem out of character for Dunk. It's such a departure that I'm surprised no one mentions it again in any of the latter sourcebooks about him or dragonkind. The Draco Foundation is repeatedly shown to (at least on the surface) be the only safe haven for drakes, although the truth there is probably a lighter shade of grey. There's also the question of whether the creation of drakes or even turning everyone in the world into one would necessarily be a bad thing.

Someone mentioned that everything is a shade of grey in the Sixth World, and I wholeheartedly agree with that. Dunkelzahn was no perfect knight in shining armor, definitely. But as I said in the first post, he seems to have been a distinctly lighter shade of grey than most, which is important. The world is already so dark that someone like him can be an important source of hope for the future, which keeps everything relevant (why bother living if there's just nobody in the whole world who deserves to live?). Dunk wasn't Gandhi... to be honest, Gandhi wasn't Gandhi... but to see someone in power using their resources at least mostly to do good keeps the Sixth World ticking just a little longer. If even Dunkelzahn was just a straight villain in disguise, as that one line from Capt. Chaos insinuates, there's really no hope, and furthermore no reason to view dragons as truly 3-dimensional beings. We're left without an example of a nuanced, realistic dragon. If he was a horrible bad guy, then essentially, Dragonslayer was right, and everyone on Shadowland knew he was a hateful bigot. He was so ignorant and dracoform-racist that even Harlequin lost his cool on him once.

'Editorial drift' is a wonderful phrase, and someone mentioned that Dunk's motives have been retconned several times, which is true. Perhaps I should just take Captain Chaos' unusually biased negative view on Dunkelzahn as one editor's view, and not let it destroy my somewhat-positive image of him?

I have no problem with anyone in the Sixth World saying 'maybe Dunkelzahn was deceiving us'. Heck, that's just smart, to suspect everybody. But in that one line, CC seems to be saying that he /definitely/ was, and that it was so bad that all of the good things he did in the world were invalidated by it. Does that seem excessive to anyone else?
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Sendaz
post Jul 25 2014, 03:16 PM
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I don't believe the late Captain was calling Big D a villain, rather he was just pointing out that for all his public image of having our best interests at heart, Big D was still a dragon and ultimately he does what is in his own best interests.

If those should align with ours, then it's to our benefit, but had they truly been at cross purposes Dunkie would have still proceeded the way he had and it's something to remember, whether it's a dragon or a metahuman friendly megacorp or some shadowy benefactor.

People want to have a shiny figure to look at and draw some sort of comfort from, look at the Children of the Dragon. And there is nothing wrong with striving toward some ideal just so long as you do not delude yourself into thinking that the focus can do no wrong, setting that focus on such a high pedestal that it can only come crashing back to earth all to fast.
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Shemhazai
post Jul 25 2014, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE (TheBigDLives @ Jul 25 2014, 11:04 AM) *
There's also the question of whether the creation of drakes or even turning everyone in the world into one would necessarily be a bad thing.

Wait. What??
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Friendbot2000
post Jul 25 2014, 07:51 PM
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I think Dunk was playing what is referred to as the long con. If you read most of the older source books while he was still alive it becomes clear that he is manipulating events not just for his survival, but for everyone. The dragons know what is coming down the road, the return of the Shadows. Dunk even sacrificed his own life in a huge blood magic ritual to prevent them from crossing over before metahumanity was ready. I think that dragons possess a form of future sense due to their innate intelligence. Everything Dunk has done is preparing for something that he feared we weren't ready for yet. Remember that Earthdawn is supposedly connected to Shadowrun and the dragons know what is coming. I would say that Dunk is doing what needs to be done to ensure Earth's survival.
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TheBigDLives
post Jul 27 2014, 08:56 AM
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(in response to my questioning whether the creation of drakes or even turning everyone in the world into one would necessarily be a bad thing)
QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Jul 25 2014, 11:15 AM) *
Wait. What??


Well, I know what I said may sound a bit... strange. But bear in mind that the Horrors are coming, and we would all certainly be much, much better prepared if there were 7 billion part-time dragons on this planet. Combine that with no known negative side-effects to being a drake besides draconic scrutiny of those few with the ability (something which would immediately cease to be an issue if we were ALL drakes) and I'm not sure why it would be a bad thing, as I said. Is it that it's just not what we are now?


QUOTE (Friendbot2000 @ Jul 25 2014, 02:51 PM) *
I would say that Dunk is doing what needs to be done to ensure Earth's survival.


Exactly. I suppose that I am of the opinion that, in the world of Shadowrun, a little duplicity done for the sake of saving the world is entirely forgivable, and perhaps even necessary. I understand that a reasonable person just might disagree, but I'm glad that this seems to be the opinion of at least some.

Overall, it seems as though folks seem to agree that Dunkelzahn, while a complex and nuanced character, was generally interested in the common good, and although he pursued this in a somewhat draconic way, laying intricate plans and being willing to sacrifice both others and himself for it, it remains justifiable to think of him as a net positive force in the Sixth World, relatively speaking.
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SpellBinder
post Jul 27 2014, 05:12 PM
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@TheBigDLives : Don't forget that VITAS wiped out roughly 35% of the global population. Now I know it's possible for the world population to recover that much in the 35 years between VITAS's second wave & Dunkelzahn's death, but with everything else that happened in the world did it really?

And IIRC, Ehran The Scribe is quoted somewhere as saying metahumanity needs about another 2,500 years to be ready for the horrors. If Dunkelzahn was able to do something to postpone an early arrival, then okay. Of course, the uneducated public that has a very narrow view of what's happening in the world around them likely wouldn't see it that way.
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Larsine
post Jul 28 2014, 10:27 AM
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QUOTE (TheBigDLives @ Jul 25 2014, 05:04 PM) *
People keep bringing up the little bit in his will about that one guy he temporarily stripped of his SIN and put a bounty on, but that's no reason to take fifty years of do-gooding (and several dozen deeply positive bequests) and label it all a sham. First off, we have no idea what that guy did to earn/deserve it (he did make a deal for it, after all) and, more importantly, it was revealed in a con game with that very 'bequest' as its subject that the whole thing was done at the request of the man in question, in order to ferret out a doppelganger. Dunkelzahn was doing him a big favor with that bequest, and it worked. One more good deed for him, even though it didn't seem like it at the time.

What con game/adventure was this? I thought I knew all the adventures, but I don't remember reading this anywhere.
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lokii
post Jul 28 2014, 10:48 AM
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QUOTE (TheBigDLives @ Jul 24 2014, 06:51 PM) *
Yesterday, however, I came across something very upsetting to me while reading Dragons of the Sixth World. Captain Chaos prefaces the section on Masaru, another dragon trying to cultivate a positive image, with these harsh words:

"Dunkelzahn, as good as he seemed, was able to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. It won't happen again."
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 25 2014, 04:16 PM) *
I don't believe the late Captain was calling Big D a villain, rather he was just pointing out that for all his public image of having our best interests at heart, Big D was still a dragon and ultimately he does what is in his own best interests.

Well yes, context. The section the quote comes from starts with "We knew that dragons had more plots than a graveyard, but even the fallout from Dunkelzahn's death hadn't fully prepared us when we decided to put together this little guide." The Captain cites Dunkelzahn as an example of a dragon that was able to hide his activities and vast influence behind the mask of a friendly next-door dragon. I read "as good as he seemed" not as a judgement but rather an indication that he hasn't made up his mind about Dunkelzahn.

Since I went through this discussion recently, I believe it is pretty obvious that Dunkelzahn was written as a good guy. Take this Interview with Mike Mulvihill, at the time of Dunkelzahn's death Shadowrun Line Developer, as an example: http://nmath.free.fr/onyx/depot/interview_mulvihill.html As Mike says: "The Big D was looking at the big picture...so a few human die. He's saving the world." Ends-justify-the-means-good, anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

QUOTE (fistandantilus4.0 @ Jul 25 2014, 12:15 AM) *
Try The Forever Drug. It's been a looong time since I read it but as I recall it had to do with the formula Dunk wanted everyone injected with, that may or may not have possibly changed everyone's metatype into some kind of drake race. Or done something else entirely. As it never actually happened it wasn't really clear. Lowfyr foiled his plans.

Really? Wasn't the purpose of this vaccine to make everybody immortal?
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DarkSoldier84
post Jul 31 2014, 12:54 AM
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A funny thing I noticed is that the time period his will specified that Lars Matthews was outlawed was six months before the will was read. Unless he meant 2058 and every copy of the will is incorrect, Dunkelzahn managed to retroactively ruin a man's life.
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SpellBinder
post Jul 31 2014, 01:32 AM
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I double checked my books, and the copies I have list the date on Lars Matthews as I posted it, and Sixth World Almanac has President Dunkelzahn dead almost six months later on August 9, 2057.
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tete
post Aug 1 2014, 07:12 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 24 2014, 06:03 PM) *
Hiding the Danger of the Horrors/Blood-Magic/Aztlan/Insect-Shamans
Hiding the Truth about Ghostwalker probably.
He was engaging in large scale MetaHuman experimentation. Granted, it was for the good of the people, but still . .
There is no good and bad, no black and white, in the Universe of Shadowrun. It's all grey with a bit darker grey towards the other end.

He openly took somebodys life away in his will for a month, stripping him off his SIN and actually putting out a bounty on his head i think.
And you know, draconic nature, so probably has eaten his share of metahumans as well . .



+1

All great dragons want power but they don't want to destroy the world...
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Temperance
post Aug 1 2014, 09:04 PM
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QUOTE (tete @ Aug 1 2014, 12:12 PM) *
+1

All great dragons want power but they don't want to destroy the world...


Of course not. Unless said dragon's idea of ruling the world is ruling a barren one, it behooves them to keep things together. (Relatively speaking.)

-Temperance
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