Astral Perception & Glass, Specs, Contact Lenses, Windows, Helmet Visors Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I prefer Mage Sight Goggles. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

I prefer Mage Sight Goggles. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

TJ, you and I are on the same page here. I was making a sarcastic remark of "that ruling means X will happen, are you sure you want that?"

While yes, I would think that something like sunglasses wouldn't impair your astral perception while your wearing them, I do not think that magic-LOS originates from your "aura"

(By the way, with the way astral perception works, mage sight goggles don't work: the fiber optic cable would be opaque! Ditto mirrors etc. etc.¹)

¹Mirrors are a thin sheet of reflective metal adhered to one side of a piece of glass, to give it durability and tensile strength.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

TJ, you and I are on the same page here. I was making a sarcastic remark of "that ruling means X will happen, are you sure you want that?"

While yes, I would think that something like sunglasses wouldn't impair your astral perception while your wearing them, I do not think that magic-LOS originates from your "aura"

(By the way, with the way astral perception works, mage sight goggles don't work: the fiber optic cable would be opaque! Ditto mirrors etc. etc.¹)

¹Mirrors are a thin sheet of reflective metal adhered to one side of a piece of glass, to give it durability and tensile strength.

I agree - it is just funny is all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, I know - Mage sight goggles are crazy... but so is the Fiber-optic security system too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Machiavelli]

Honestly, i don´t know what you are discussing here. You proposed a houserule that immediately opened a can of worms for even more abuse than we had before. The RAW clearly states, how astral perception is working. Of course it is not sight, smell, taste or touch, but our brain interprets it that way. All the senses are located on the same “places” they were before and the only thing that makes life difficult, is that transparent objects in the normal world are not transparent in the astral world. Yes, this means that a mage HAS to put down his glasses, take off his helmet or whatever to start his astral perception. So what? That is a pity, but it is like water. Water is wet, it doesn´t care if you like that or not. If you start a houseruling with the assumption that things attached or within your aura are not included to the RAW, you can go for it as long as you have a GM with some common sense. If this common-sense-GM might be a problem, the next thing you have to deal with are PC´s that press very closely to a thin wall so that they can perceive and target spells through them because “the aura shines though the object”. Astral perception is like magesight at Dresden Files or the punishing look from the Ghost Rider. It is something that doesn´t work with glasses on and IMHO you should be able to recognize that the mage is a bit “away” if he is checking your aura.

As for mage sight googles: you are mixing up stuff massively. You can target via regular sight through MSG´s, but this has nothing to do with astral perception.

[bannockburn]

The bigger issue here is that both options aren't entirely without implications.

What you propose (and btw, that's not RAW, it's just how you read it), also means* that you can't target someone in a full body glove like, let's say a chameleon suit, effectively making clothed people immune to magic**.

Edit:
* (taken to an extreme)
** single-target mana spells

[Draco18s]

You proposed a houserule that immediately opened a can of worms for even more abuse than we had before.

You don't say.

Cue "sticking my finger around a corner to cast spells."

[KarmaInferno]

You don't use Mage Sight Goggles for astral casting. They're pretty much a meatspace casting only thing.

If you have a cybereye implanted in your hand you can already cast around corners. And... other places.


-k

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You don't use Mage Sight Goggles for astral casting. They're pretty much a meatspace casting only thing.

If you have a cybereye implanted in your hand you can already cast around corners. And... other places.


-k

Please, PLEASE shy away from the Other Places. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[Stahlseele]

No, a 3rd eye at the base of the neck is perfectly fine.

[binarywraith]

I'm in favour of worn items don't impede astra senses but - how does a mage hood work?

Mage hoods are to stop casters targeting spells, not to prevent perception. They're a way for mundane security to contain magical detainees. Even then, they generally supply enough distraction that most mages aren't going to manage to do anything useful with perception anyway after the negatives.

[SpellBinder]

Mage hoods are to stop casters targeting spells, not to prevent perception. They're a way for mundane security to contain magical detainees. Even then, they generally supply enough distraction that most mages aren't going to manage to do anything useful with perception anyway after the negatives.

The white noise generator inside the hood makes any normally automatically successful action (like projecting) require a Willpower + Intuition (4) test (Arsenal, 66).

For containing the magical, I'm more for the magecuffs. A bit of glomoss, photoreceptor, and battery and any magical activity gives the magician a 12S(e) jolt. Sure it's only got four shots, can be set off with a false positive, but the first jolt will likely knock out anyone.

[Beaumis]

I'm in favour of worn items don't impede astra senses but - how does a mage hood work?

Mage Hoods aren't actually designed to block your astral abilities but to keep you disoriented and unfocused. Basically its a black hood that keeps a buzzing sound in your ears, blocks your vision, and in some cases even vibrates somewhat to keep you dizzy.

You can still use your senses, it's just darn uncomfortable and close to impossible to actually cast spells. Think of it as a major distraction modifier that lowers your dicepool by a shitload.

Frankly, between that and knocking you out, knocking you out seems more humane to me. Which goes to show how much corps and cops care about humane in SR.

[binarywraith]

Honestly, that's the cops being nice. If they wanted to be mean, they'd stick you in a box and flood it with FAB.

[irthinker]

Based on the intuition I developed playing Awakened characters, I agree with Machiavelli. I prefer the notion that, even though you are wearing them, the glasses do cast a shadow like any other object and impair Astral Perception. It is consistent with what is written. And I think a blindfold or hood should impair a Magician's sight while he is in his body.

And let's note that you can just pull down your glasses and look over them (sort of like you might if you walked into a dark room with sunglasses and did not want to take them off).

I think it's actually kind of cool, to think of someone pulling down/off their glasses when they perceive Astrally. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I don't know that I find the blind caster to break this logic. In Astral Space, he likely has eyes, and if he does not, he would still see from where his eyes would be.

Of course, if you Project, it becomes moot.

This may sound inconsistent, but I think I might give contact lenses a pass...it's sort of a "gut feel" rationale, because they are laying on your eye, swimming in your bodily fluids, and they are very thin, so any shadow they might cast would likely be minimal.

[Stahlseele]

My much bigger problem with glass not being a problem for visibility on the astral stems from one very obvious logical problem:
If the glass does not stop visibility, then why does the wall around the window do so? The Wall is exactly as dead or alive as the Window after all . .

[psychophipps]

I think that any natural barrier works to block vision in the astral. It's not an aura issue, it's a how we perceive things issue. If the object, or a part of the object, would keep you from seeing through them in the physical world, then your mind naturally constructs the same type of block in the astral. Blind people, like most folks in modern society YouTube videos excluded, know they can't walk through walls or glass (except in extreme circumstance with the glass) just like everyone else, so their astral vision is blocked by these barriers. It's about how our mind constructs the basis for reality in both the physical and astral realms.

That said, if you can see directly through it without circuits or fiberoptics, etc being involved, you can use it for targeting with magic. One thing I do have to say is that I have a pretty strong dislike for the concept of a Mage with a 40x optical spotting scope popping off folks with Powerbolt from 3 klicks away without any negative modifiers.

[Draco18s]

<strawman>

My much bigger problem with glass not being a problem for visibility on the astral stems from one very obvious logical problem:
If the glass does not stop visibility, then why does the wall around the window do so? The Wall is exactly as dead or alive as the Window after all . .

</strawman>

No one said glass windows didn't stop visibility, we said that glasses you are wearing on your face don't (or do), because of various reasons.

[DeathStrobe]

Based on the intuition I developed playing Awakened characters, I agree with Machiavelli. I prefer the notion that, even though you are wearing them, the glasses do cast a shadow like any other object and impair Astral Perception. It is consistent with what is written. And I think a blindfold or hood should impair a Magician's sight while he is in his body.

And let's note that you can just pull down your glasses and look over them (sort of like you might if you walked into a dark room with sunglasses and did not want to take them off).

I think it's actually kind of cool, to think of someone pulling down/off their glasses when they perceive Astrally. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I don't know that I find the blind caster to break this logic. In Astral Space, he likely has eyes, and if he does not, he would still see from where his eyes would be.

Of course, if you Project, it becomes moot.

This may sound inconsistent, but I think I might give contact lenses a pass...it's sort of a "gut feel" rationale, because they are laying on your eye, swimming in your bodily fluids, and they are very thin, so any shadow they might cast would likely be minimal.

I was thinking that glasses shouldn't. But you're right. It sounds way cooler to see an awaken character slide their glasses to the edge of their nose to get a better look at your aura.

Rule of cool wins. So I'd rule that glasses should block astral vision. This is annoying because I wanted my blind adept to have glasses on, but screw it, he doesn't need glasses.

[Machiavelli]

Hooray for boobie...aaeehm...for the rule of cool. ^^

[Machiavelli]

The bigger issue here is that both options aren't entirely without implications.

What you propose (and btw, that's not RAW, it's just how you read it), also means* that you can't target someone in a full body glove like, let's say a chameleon suit, effectively making clothed people immune to magic**.

Edit:
* (taken to an extreme)
** single-target mana spells

I think what i posted was quite RAW and it doesn´t even interfere with your mentioned situational problem. One problem was astral perception, the other problem is spell targeting. You target an aura, this aura "shines" around your astral body and THIS aura is targeted. Clothing, armor etc. are per RAW explicticly exceptions from the LOS-rule (for more informations also look for the cyborgs and brain-in-a-jar rules from augmentation (IIRC)), because your aura exceeds your clothing easily. How the situation chances if your armor is 30cm thick, is another propblem. Then we would need to discuss how far the shine goes exactly...blabla...you know.

[bannockburn]

Clothing, armor etc. are per RAW explicitly exceptions from the LOS-rule

And that's exactly the point.
It isn't mentioned anywhere if glasses are or aren't part of clothing. As such, it is your understanding, interpretation and extrapolation, but not cold, hard rules that simply are.
Where do you stop? Brain in a jar? Military power armour? Glasses? Contacts? A tank (obviously)?
Personally, I think that it's easiest to roughly go with the "if you wear it, it belongs to your aura, if you pilot it, it doesn't" approach, which makes the matter simple too for glasses.
I'd also make a distinction between simple glasses and giant goggles, or even a fully enclosed helmet.
To me, it just seems petty to require lifting a pair of sunglasses before you can assense, but YMMV.

In the end, and as I wrote in my original post in this thread, it really doesn't matter (except for personal taste) as long as neither GM nor players try to be all smart about it and take the issue to an (allegedly logical) extreme.
The only difference is usually the noticeability of astral perception (normally exempt from notice in contrast to spellcasting or spirits), which is either cool to some or annoying to micromanage to others.

As an interesting aside: I did a bit of research in older books, namely SR3, Magic in the Shadows, SR2 and Grimoire.
In fact, only SR2 squarely stated that glass is translucent on the astral plane. SR3 and its magic supplement don't even touch the subject, apart from unliving objects casting a shadow on the astral (no mention at all if these block sight or not, even for opaque things). SR3 let you, in contrast to SR2 (and presumably earlier), project through living things as long as they're not astrally active (but you had no way of noticing it), and even pass through the earth itself (which is also explicitly disallowed in SR4).
Oh, the huge manatee of retcons!

Questioning fellow players, I got a 50/50 split of whether glasses would block astral sight, not depending on in which edition they started playing, with even the proponents of blockage acknowledging that it's really vague, and necessitates a split between how mana spells are directed and how astral perception works, with no satisfactory answer on how to treat contacts.

[Stahlseele]

<strawman>

</strawman>

No one said glass windows didn't stop visibility, we said that glasses you are wearing on your face don't (or do), because of various reasons.

So, if glass as a window does block it, why does the glass in the glasses not block it?

[Beaumis]

Because it's not about the material but wether or not it is between your aura and your target. Your aura has always extended past your clothing and armor in shadowrun in every edition. For all intents and purposes spells originate from a point that is past the glasses (from the PoV of the caster). Another way of looking at it is that the glasses are within your aura, not outside of it.

Center of Aura/Body --> Skin/Eyes --> Contacts --> Glasses --> End of Aura/ Point of origin for spells.

Glasses as such have nothing to do with it. A blindfold blocks spells because it blocks line of sight. Touch spells work fine even with a blindfold on.

[pbangarth]

As I would handle it: Your astral senses are omnidirectional from your aura. You interpret it visually because that's how your mind is best set up to interpret astral stimuli, but it is not visual.

I think this is a hugely important point that is usually overlooked. Since astral perception is not linked to eyes or any other of the physical senses, why do we assume it is directional, as sight is? To me it seems perfectly logical that it would be a 3-D, all directions sense. So, while eyeglasses might be opaque on the astral, a mere turn of the head would be enough to bypass the blockage.

Of course, this does open up the issue of the astral perceived being much harder to sneak up on or surprise.

[Rad]

I think what i posted was quite RAW and it doesn´t even interfere with your mentioned situational problem. One problem was astral perception, the other problem is spell targeting. You target an aura, this aura "shines" around your astral body and THIS aura is targeted. Clothing, armor etc. are per RAW explicticly exceptions from the LOS-rule (for more informations also look for the cyborgs and brain-in-a-jar rules from augmentation (IIRC)), because your aura exceeds your clothing easily. How the situation chances if your armor is 30cm thick, is another propblem. Then we would need to discuss how far the shine goes exactly...blabla...you know.

To be fair, I think part of the reason a brainjar cyborg's aura doesn't extend outside their drone body is because they have so little essence left. Compared to a metahuman in full millspec there's a lot less meat contained in a lot more metal, so it doesn't take as much to block the cyborg's aura. That's something I think a lot of people overlooked when augmentation came out and there was this sudden cry of "If brainjars can't be targeted by their auras why can guys in bodysuits or milspec?"