Has anyone tried Skillsofts much in SR5? Options

[Jack VII]

Well... I was going to say it is in the OOC thread, but something seems to have happened to it that deleted a bunch of it. Shit.

Here is the character at chargen:

[ Spoiler ]

Handle: Jack Vii (Project: Jack of All Trades, Ver7.0)
Name: Javier Ramirez
Race: Ork/Latino
Gender: Male
Priorities - A: Resources, B: Race, C: Attributes, D: Skills, E: Magic

ATTRIBUTES
BOD 6 WIL 3
AGI 3 (5) LOG 3
REA 3 (4) INT 3
STR 5 (7) CHA 3
EDG 5 ESN 1.24
INI 7 + 2D6
Limits (M/P/S) 4/9/4
Monitor (P/S) 11/10
Overflow: 8

SKILLS
Active
Physical: Perception (4)
Social: Con/Fast Talk (3), Etiquette/Corp (3), Negotiation/Contracts (3)
Technical: Computer (2), First Aid (3)
Vehicle: Pilot Ground (1)
Knowledge
Academic: Economics (2)
Professional: Accounting (2), Business (2)
Interest: Music/Goblin Rock (1)
Street: Denver Area Knowledge (2)
Language: English (N), Spanish (2)

QUALITIES
Positive: Toughness, Will To Live (2)
Negative: Dependent (Nic)

CONTACTS & REP
- Chapel, Male Human Fixer (4/2): Chapel has a solid rep throughout the UCAS Zone as a good fixer to work for. Friendly, outgoing, and protective of his runners as well as his clients, he operates on the belief that happy runners make a happy fixer. He is a little bit of a foodie, preferring to meet at various upscale restaurants throughout the Zone and the UCAS part of the Downtown Hub rather than the various seedy bars that most runners frequent. Runners who wish to work for Chapel are well advised to scrape together at least one nice suit in order to blend in at his "business dinners" - where he invariably picks up the check as another gesture of good will towards his employees. (10% bonus for Firearms/15% penalty for Magical Supplies)
- Nicodemus, Male Troll Scavenger (1/4): A cantankerous old troll who runs "Nic's Knacks" out of his squat in the Aurora Warrens. The troll scavenges weapons, gear, and "slightly used" cyberware from the urban battlefields of the Free Zone. (Access to used gear and cyberware at a 25% discount. Used gear has the Gremlins 1 Negative Quality and may not come with all of the standard accessories. No access to new gear)
- Honeypot, Female Elf Fence (4/2): A former prostitute, Honeypot learned pretty quickly that is was preferable to sell other things than herself. With equal amounts of charm and sarcasm, the elf has carved out a moderate sized network to move stolen goods. (10% bonus for Programs/15% penalty for Firearms)
- CPL Jason Sinclair, Male Human UCAS ZDF Border Guard (2/2): Young and fairly new to the ZDF Border Guard, CPL Sinclair bonded with "Diego Sanchez" over a shard love of goblin rock, the two having met during an altercation at a local concert. Sinclair is quietly jealous of "Sanchez's" lifestyle and hopes to one day follow in his footsteps.
Current Karma (0), Total Karma (0), Street Cred (0), Notoriety (0), Public Awareness (0)

GEAR
Streetline Special [APDS] w/2x Spare Clip [Regular]: 226 (W)
HK227 [Regular] w/3x Spare Clips [Regular]: 969 (W)
Flash-Pak: 125 (W)
Actioneer Business Clothes: 1,500
Armor Jacket w/CP (2), FR (2), IS (2), NC (2): 3,000
Helmet w/Flare Comp, Thermo, Trode-Net, Vision Enhancement (1), & Vision Magnification: 1,675 (W)
Horn Rim Glasses w/Flare Comp, Image Link, Vision Enhancement (2): 1,675 (W)
Earbuds w/Audio Enhancement (3): 1,650 (W)
Hermes Ikon (5) [Browse & Signal Scrub] w/Subvocal Mic: 3,210
Gecko Tape Gloves: 250 (W)
Bio-monitor: 300 (W)
Medkit (3): 375 (W)
Standard Credstick: 5
Fake SIN (4) [Diego Sanchez]: 10,000
Fake License (4) [Augmentations, Concealed Carry, Firearms]: 2,400
1xMonth Low Lifestyle w/Dependent: 2,400

Cyberware (438,800)
Internal Air Tank (3) [Alpha]: 16,200 (0.2) (W)
Muscle Replacement (2) [Alpha]: 60,000 (1.6)
Skilljack (4) [Used]: 60,000 (0.5) (W)
Skillwires (4) [Used]: 60,000 (0.5) (W)
Skillsoft: [Automatics (4), Disguise (1), Diving (2), Free-Fall (1), Gymnastics (2), Navigation (2), Pilot Aircraft (1), Pilot Watercraft (1), Pistols (4), Running (3), Sneaking (4), Survival (2), Throwing Weapons (4), Tracking (2), Unarmed Combat (4)]: 185,000
Smartlink [Alpha]: 4,800 (0.16) (W)
Handblade [Alpha]: 3,000 (0.2)
Wired Reflexes (1) [Alpha]: 46,800 (1.6) (W)

APPEARANCE
Jack is an ork of Latino descent standing 6'2 and weighing approximately 282 pounds. His features are lightly goblinized, although no one would confuse him for anything other than an ork given the jutting and prominent lower canines. His hair is black and a little wild. Jack is dressed fairly stylishly in a khaki three-piece armored business suit, an affectation to which he feels unconsciously attracted. The ork also wears a pair of stylish horn-rim glasses to complete the look of a successful corp saraiman. (Real world, I’m thinking a young Benecio Del Toro with tusks.)

BACKGROUND
********************************************************************************
*****
AZTECHNOLOGY PROPRIETARY INFORMATION//RESTRICTED DISTRIBUTION//EYES ONLY
Project: Jack of All Trades, v7.0
Subject: Javier Ramirez
Project Status: Terminated

Executive Summary: Jack of All Trades, v7.0 (JACK VII) is the seventh iteration of the Jack of All Trades Project (JACK). As you know, JACK is Aztechnology’s initiative to develop a cost-effective, mass-producible warfighter through cyber & bio augmentation. One of the key features of the program is leveraging cybernetic skill emulation technology to turn any randomly selected individual into a competent soldier. The previous JACK subjects had met with varying levels of success, although none remain functioning at this time.

Javier Ramirez, our subject for JACK VII, was an Aztechnology employee working in the contracting office of one of our Seattle logistics affiliates. After careful screening, he was selected for the program due to his completely average attributes. He fell within the 40th to 60th percentile in every measurable category for his metatype. As for his metatype, Ramirez was our first ork subject. While we would have preferred a human subject, Ramirez was the only one available on short notice. It was relatively easy for us to arrange a staged negotiation where Ramirez performed poorly and gave him the option to join JACK to correct his “failed” negotiation.

In any event, Ramirez was actually quite successful as a JACK subject. His performance exceeded all previous test subjects, which we expect resulted from a combination of Ramirez’s metatype and the advances made in the skill emulation technology. Unfortunately, JACK VII was terminated when a transport helicopter in which Ramirez was traveling was lost somewhere in Denver. We have yet to determine who or what downed the helicopter, but we are not ruling out interference from Ghostwalker. Our forensics teams were unable to find any trace of the subject. Based on the number and locations of the badly charred corpses, the forensics team believes JACK VII was lost in the crash with a 95% confidence interval.

Using the research gleaned from JACK VII, work has already begun on Jack of All Trades, v8.0. For information on that project, please direct inquiries to the Aztechnology’s Seattle R&D Branch. Please present proper clearance credentials when initiating contact.
********************************************************************************
*****
Jack Vii’s first memories were filled with smoke and flame. Well, smoke, flame, and the ugliest troll he had ever seen. When you’re trapped in the burning carcass of a Hughes Stallion helicopter and the next thing you see is a mechanical claw reaching in to pull you free, you may not be off the mark if you think things are getting worse rather than better.

But that was simply Jack’s initial reaction, he now knows he owes Nic his life and he has worked hard to pay the troll back over the past few months. Getting on to the story, Jack was roasting away in a crashed helicopter when an itinerant troll scavenger named Nicodemus showed up to pick through the wreckage before anyone else had the chance.

Nicodemus is a sight to see. You already heard about the crazy arm claw, but his most interesting augmentation (and the term is used loosely here) has to be his right leg or (as he puts it) his left left leg. As the story goes, Nicodemus ended up on the wrong end of a gang hoop beating and lost the use of his right leg. Unfortunately, the only thing he had managed to scavenge close to his own size was the left leg from an ork street sam who had bought it a year earlier. Making a horribly sour lemonade out of the lemons the gang had given him, Nic installed the smaller left leg where his right leg had been and has been hobbling and lurching around ever since.

Enough about Nic though, you wanted to know about Jack. So Nic pulls this unconscious ork out of the helicopter. The ork is wearing a jumpsuit with the nametag JACK VII sewn over the left breast pocket. Nic pulls Jack Vii off to the side and tries to get him to wake up so he can figure out what’s worthwhile to take. The ork, however, is out cold and not waking up. Nic proceeds to pick through the wreckage as quickly as he can. Grabbing what he could, he dumps everything into this grocery cart along with the unconscious ork. Nic didn’t know how the helicopter had crashed, but he didn’t want to hang around for the owners to show up and hoped that he might be able to make some money off the ork by rescuing him from the fire. As Nic departed, he noticed a few vehicles turning the corner at a nearby intersection and heading to the crash at high speeds.

Returning to his squat/shop, Nic tended to what injuries his limited medical skills could address and took note of the wiz cyber Jack was sporting. After a bit of medical attention from a local street shaman named Amy, the ork finally woke with no memory of what had happened to him or of anything before the crash. Grumbling, Nic realized that the dreamed of payday wasn’t in the cards. At the same time, he realized he had a pretty valuable potential helper in front of him and offered to let Jack stay with him while he recovered. Not really having any other idea of what to do, Jack accepted and has been staying with the troll for several months.

Slowly, some of his memories have returned, mostly from his childhood although a few flashes of his adult life have popped up, mostly images of cubicles and meetings. Jack has learned how to access the varied cyberware in his body and recently accessed the trove of skillsoft stored on his skilljack. The revelation of the downloaded skills have made him wonder what the frag is going on, given that the brief flashes of memories from his adult life and his frequent recollections about corporate life don’t seem to jive with the military skillsoft.

Alias: Diego Sanchez, former Aztlan soldier and sole proprietor of Sanchez Security, is a certified personnel protection specialist and bodyguard. The training and cyberware he received as a member of the Atztan military lend themselves well to his chosen profession. His primary business is providing personnel protection to non-local clients visiting Denver, providing him a diverse client base.

[Wakshaani]

Heh.

And thank you! *logging*

[rythymhack]

I am in the process of building an uneducated troll. My idea is that he gets ahold of a skilljack. During play he will randomly slot a chip and start randomly spouting random bits of newly gleaned knowledge. "HEY! Did you know that approximately 60–70% of thallium production is used in the electronics industry, and the remainder is used in the pharmaceutical industry and in glass manufacturing?" He of course retains nothing when the chip is removed.

[kzt]

For low skill, the skillwires pay for themselves and save the company money in 3 years.

These are low skilled jobs. How many hours of training do you think it takes to teach a janitor or iPhone screen cleaner how to do their job? They don't give out Masters of the Science of Emptying Trash Cans or PhD's in Frappuccino Brewing at the university I work at. (Yeah, you can argue that that is what everyone in the "studies" programs in going to actually DO with their degree, but that is kind of besides the point.)

[Temperance]

The money you spend on training or on an update infrastructure, including the necessary testing and safety precautions to make sure your update doesn't destroy your entire labor pool probably evens out in the end, all expenses considered. Updates do not grow on the update tree, after all.

Yes, updates don't grow on trees. However, it's not an "extra" expense. The expense there is already absorbed by the purchase price of said upgrade (externally) or R&D (internally) for the next upgrade to sell/give to customers. Assuming the corp has to deal with it as an externality, and their lawyers know what they are doing, their purchase contract will include free or discounted upgrades.

I'm very familiar with contract stipulations like that. (Because I've had to work on them.) For a more commercial example, look a software patches and updates. (Not necessarily version changes, because that's often a "new model" example.) Or a more concrete example: Boeing has (or used to have) a unique version of Windows for their workstations. It roughly was equivalent to the latest commercial version and actually followed the commercial naming scheme. (XP, Vista, Win7.) The contract with Microsoft required patches/updates developed exclusively for their use.

Also, where do you get your "wholesale" numbers from? Prices in the core rules are not defined as retail, wholesale or street prices anymore - and for many things, street prices - for contraband - can be as much as 10% of retail (iphones, for instance). Skillwires in the core book can just as well be defined as prices for contraband cyberware that 'fell of a truck' - and is 1/10 of the actual retail price of 1.80.000 nuyen. We just don't know, so that assumption is shaky at best.

Here's the source of my assumption:

Standard items with no Availability rating can be purchased at your local Kong-WalMart, Stuffer Shack, or Microdeck, or perhaps ordered online or picked up from a vending machine. All you have to do is pay the cost
listed in the book for the item (with adjustments from the gamemaster if she wants, according to local market fluctuations or other extenuating circumstances she deems appropriate).

That says standard items are retail. Yes, I acknowledge it's talking about gear with no availability rating. But when the book jumps from there to "here's how you buy things illegally", there's a big middle ground missing. And it's not the first time the book didn't tell you how to do something legally* as it assumes you are playing 'runners, who do everything illegally.

*Like legal licenses, which cost money and may have training requirements; at least in the US. But then, we have licenses for everything.

As for my 'wholesale' discount, the discount was assumed. (Which I mentioned in my post: "Lets assume that the difference in retail to wholesale is only about 20% discount from retail.") As for where I got the idea from, it was a from a random website talking about car prices wholesale vs retail. A car seemed a valid comparison. Though I admittedly went for the larger discount. Even assuming a 10% discount, at the low end of the range, the 'pay for itself' date only moves back a few months. A house would have been a better comparison admittedly, but I couldn't find a quick easy quote on that.

And the extortion of the wageslave still makes it profit.

You dont train slave labor (as megacorps in 2075). You want to keep it cheap.

We are exactly talking about that if we are talking about chipslaves.

Okay, then I am not following your point. If you are buying unskilled labor, you keep it cheap by using them as unskilled labor.

If you want skilled labor, you buy skilled labor at the prices they command (command in the economics sense). Or in Shadowrun, you buy unskilled labor and turn them into skilled labor via skillwires. So no, we aren't talking about unskilled labor. Rather, I'm not talking about unskilled labor, I'm talking about skilled labor or their equivalent, and have been from the beginning.

Your commentary appears to be a non-sequitur at this point. Do you mind explaining?

These are low skilled jobs. How many hours of training do you think it takes to teach a janitor or iPhone screen cleaner how to do their job?

To be clear, I'm referring to "low" skill as the Rating 4 example and "moderate" skill as the Rating 6 example. As previously in my post, I mentioned that janitorial work was unskilled labor, and therefore didn't require skillwires.

Also, if anyone is interested in my operational definitions of skilled vs unskilled, since they are technical terms:

[ Spoiler ]

These definitions are important to understanding my point. In addition to the ones below, Dictionary.com has a definition for unskilled and skilled labor as well.

Skilled Labor

Skilled labor refers to labor that requires workers who have specialized training or a learned skill-set to perform the work. These workers can be either blue-collar or white-collar workers, with varied levels of training or education. Very highly skilled workers may fall under the category of professionals, rather than skilled labor, such as doctors and lawyers. Examples of skilled labor occupations are: electricians, law enforcement officers, computer operators, financial technicians, and administrative assistants. Some skilled labor jobs have become so specialized that there are worker shortages.

Unskilled Labor

Unskilled labor does not require workers to have special training or skills. The jobs that require unskilled labor are continually shrinking due to technological and societal advances. Jobs that previously required little or no training now require training. For example, labor that was once done manually now may be assisted by computers or other technology, requiring the worker to have technological skills. Examples of remaining unskilled labor occupations generally include farm laborers, grocery clerks, hotel maids, and general cleaners and sweepers.

Bold mine.

Or if you don't like that one, try this: "Unskilled labor provides a significant part of the overall labor market, performing daily production tasks that do not depend on technical abilities or skills. Menial or repetitive tasks are typical unskilled labor positions. Jobs that can be fully learned in less than 30 days often fall into the unskilled labor category."

-Temperance

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What you seem to miss, Temperance, is that economy of scale applies to the whole industry it is economizing. If the Economy of scale for Skill Wires gets the unit price down to something not all that onerous, it will apply to the Industry as a Standard at that point. Otherwise it is not Economy of Scale production. Those products have to go somewhere, and once they start hitting the open market, price will drop steadily. SR5 completely ignores such things because apparently such things no longer work (for some unknown reason).

[hermit]

But when the book jumps from there to "here's how you buy things illegally", there's a big middle ground missing.

The book assumes runners cannot buy restricted items legally because they lack the SINs and licenses to (because street-punk and gritty). That also means, though, that prices for goods with availability rating are street prices. These may be more or less expensive than retail prices. We just do not know (and please check what usually is charged for military and security equipment; Shadowrun prices usually are 1/10 of the real-life price, if that).

Concluding, from the lack of a "buy restricted/forbidden items legally" chapter, that the prices given are retail prices and wholesale prices are even lower is pure guesswork. It may be. It may be much more or much less expensive. The book doesn't offer any clues here.

And it's not the first time the book didn't tell you how to do something legally* as it assumes you are playing 'runners, who do everything illegally.

Yeah, like editing a text file, but let's not go there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

A car seemed a valid comparison.

Not really. Car sales are a cut-throat market, and especially in the US, retail prices and discount massively limit company and trader revenue (sometimes even being sold below break-even to try and force competitors out o the market). Houses (though the American market is massively distorted there) or industrial machinery indeed might be better. I'd expect to see a 5-10% margin.

[Jaid]

also, the difference between a human and a drone performing work in SR5 is pretty miniscule. the skill rolls are identical, at most you need a human to apply common sense... and common sense isn't possessed by most humans (or metahumans) anyways. and it can still be done pretty much just as well by having a single person managing half a dozen drones. even if you decide to spring for an RCC (which is completely unnecessary unless there are extreme noise problems; you can issue commands from a regular commlink, and a rating 2 commlink is both cheap and able to handle 6 drones at a time, plus drones are capable of running their own autosofts, especially if you already own the autosoft license in which case software pretty much is free after the first copy), it's still a heck of a lot cheaper than skillwires. by a pretty large amount.

simple fact is, drones are cheap, and one person to watch a bunch of drones and make sure they don't do anything stupid in a repetitive task that requires little creativity is a lot cheaper than outfitting a dozen people with skillwires to do the work of 12 drones. humans are also cheap, until you decide to cram tens or even hundreds of thousands of nuyen worth of 'ware into them, all to get a performance no better than a drone the vast majority of the time.

[Stahlseele]

The book assumes runners cannot buy restricted items legally because they lack the SINs and licenses to (because street-punk and gritty). That also means, though, that prices for goods with availability rating are street prices. These may be more or less expensive than retail prices. We just do not know (and please check what usually is charged for military and security equipment; Shadowrun prices usually are 1/10 of the real-life price, if that).

Concluding, from the lack of a "buy restricted/forbidden items legally" chapter, that the prices given are retail prices and wholesale prices are even lower is pure guesswork. It may be. It may be much more or much less expensive. The book doesn't offer any clues here.


Yeah, like editing a text file, but let's not go there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Not really. Car sales are a cut-throat market, and especially in the US, retail prices and discount massively limit company and trader revenue (sometimes even being sold below break-even to try and force competitors out o the market). Houses (though the American market is massively distorted there) or industrial machinery indeed might be better. I'd expect to see a 5-10% margin.

in SR3 we used to have the streetindex, which modified the list price of items such as augmentations when bought in game.
in chargen, the streetindex did not apply to modify the price of the item you wanted to get with your chargen ressourcepool.
does that not exist anymore? O.o

[hermit]

does that not exist anymore? O.o

No. Like the number of seats in a vehicle, it was deemed to complicated and confusing by Chris "Simplify" Lohnsing. I really miss the street index, wacky as the numbers it produced were.

[Stahlseele]

ah x.x
confusing but neccessary/important/usefull information . .
both the street index(to a lesser degree) and the seats in a vehicle . .

[Wakshaani]

I am in the process of building an uneducated troll. My idea is that he gets ahold of a skilljack. During play he will randomly slot a chip and start randomly spouting random bits of newly gleaned knowledge. "HEY! Did you know that approximately 60–70% of thallium production is used in the electronics industry, and the remainder is used in the pharmaceutical industry and in glass manufacturing?" He of course retains nothing when the chip is removed.

This right here made my day. Thank you!

[Sendaz]

reminds me of a british set of fraternal twin runners I ran across, he was the decker specializing in slipping into systems with stolen passcodes while she was wired up tight with a decent Move By Wire and a selection of combat chips depending on what was needed.

Their street handles?

Phish 'n Chips

[DrZaius]

Not to get into a big debate here (this one is pretty mild by DS standards), but I'd classify skill-wires under a general "computer" asset of the corporation, meaning they could be depreciated and written off. So, even if your wage-slave has $240k of skillwires in them, the corp gets to write most of that off over the lifetime of the implant (just like they get to write off other major equipment). Plus, the wage-slave will have incentive to have the operation and accept the entire cost onto his overall serf-debt, because with a skill rating 6, he gets to be a manager now! Moving up the ladder! He won't be with the worker bees much longer! Just 7 years to payoff this skill wire.. At least until the new software comes out. Gotta keep up with his peers!

[Stahlseele]

reminds me of a british set of fraternal twin runners I ran across, he was the decker specializing in slipping into systems with stolen passcodes while she was wired up tight with a decent Move By Wire and a selection of combat chips depending on what was needed.

Their street handles?

Phish 'n Chips

Buddy of mine (one of my GMs) and me we were once planning on being a bit mean to the other GM and doing a MasterBlaster combo of a chipped troll and a Dorf on his back doing the slotting.

[SpellBinder]

Skill rating 6, what used to be somewhere between 3 & 4 previously in SR4 when Skill Wires used to go up to 5 (SR5 equivalent of a skill at 9).

[Jaid]

Not to get into a big debate here (this one is pretty mild by DS standards), but I'd classify skill-wires under a general "computer" asset of the corporation, meaning they could be depreciated and written off. So, even if your wage-slave has $240k of skillwires in them, the corp gets to write most of that off over the lifetime of the implant (just like they get to write off other major equipment). Plus, the wage-slave will have incentive to have the operation and accept the entire cost onto his overall serf-debt, because with a skill rating 6, he gets to be a manager now! Moving up the ladder! He won't be with the worker bees much longer! Just 7 years to payoff this skill wire.. At least until the new software comes out. Gotta keep up with his peers!

what makes you think megacorporations pay taxes in the first place? depreciation isn't an advantage for them, it's just an acknowledgement of their eventual need to spend more money on replacing and upgrading the system.

(for non-megas, that's still a huge investment for something, and unlike the megas they probably don't have a branch company capable of providing the equipment at cost, or hospitals run by the corporation to perform the surgery at cost).

[Glyph]

The trouble with skilljacks/skillwires/skillsofts is mainly their opportunity costs, when getting three utility skillsofts at rating: 3 each costs more than getting wired reflexes: 1. They are only feasible for A or B resources but suboptimally augmented techie/generalist/face characters who have the extra money (resources going in large jumps instead of increments can lead to that sometimes). I think the biggest change is that skills went up, and skillwires became relegated to secondary specialties.

It does put the kibosh on the distopian notion, from previous editions, of a force of skillwired factory workers, with cheap skillwires and skillsofts downloaded to them by the company as needed. No matter the economies of scale involved, the augmentations are just too expensive now. I could see it for mid-level corporate types, but not armies of workers stuck with borrowed skills and no future, like they had before.

[Wakshaani]

Well, we used to have skill HARDwires for that, which were way more brutal (And something I'd like to see come back.)

(Hardwires, like Skillwires only much cheaper and they only accepted a single skillsoft, ever, hardcoded into them. IE, Skill Hardwires: Menial Task (2) let someone do the same repetitive task over and over, and if they ever left the company, it wouldn't even do them much good elsewhere. (You're programmed to make Jigsaws? Sadly, we only make iPhones. Have a good day!)

They were only around for 1st and some of 2nd edition, then vanished as no PC ever took 'em.

But, jeeze, if we're gonna put *Cortex Bombs* in the core book, well, I think it's time for Hardwires to come back. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

i'd sooner take the cortex bomb than skill hardwires . .

[hermit]

I'd classify skill-wires under a general "computer" asset of the corporation, meaning they could be depreciated and written off

Written off - of what? How exactly would an exterritorial, non-taxable corporation write off anything? The whole appeal of corporate exterritoriality is not to pay taxes in the first place. Tax writeoffs have no meaning for most larger Shadowrun corporations. Please note that Shadowrun megacorporations are not modern shareholder-value centered companies and holdings, but 1930s Zaibatsu - interwoven cartels of banks and various corporate concerns that support each other and can bring enormous economic force to bear, but will not generate mountains of revenue for greedy oligarchs, like modern corporations.

[Garvel]

Mr Johnson: "Now gentleman, that you have agreed on the extraction job with a payment of 10,000 nuyen per teammember, here are some informations about the target subject."
*A image of some random guy pops up in the holo-projector that is build into the table*
"The person in this image is Joe Nobody, your target. He is currently employed in Corporation XY. He started there 1 week ago.
He is 21 year old and dropped out of school when he was 15. He has absoluly no educations or qualifications of any kind and is a failure in most aspects of life. We want him for our company.
As I told you before, you will have to deal with minimum security as he lives in one of the worse parts of Renton."

Runner 1: *nervously clears throat* "No education or qualifications you say? Why you want him? Has he magical potential or is some kind of 'chosen one'? Could he be dangerous?"

Mrs Johnson: "No, don't worry, he is nothing of that. It's just that Corporation XY implantated a skillwire system into him, thats worth hundred thousands of nuyens. So it's actually way cheaper for us to pay runners to extract uneducated workers from other corporations, than it would be to implant them with skillwires ourself."

Runner 2: "If he has such expensive implants, won't he have personal bodyguards?"

Mr Johnson: "Most likely not. No company can afford to give personal bodyguards to each of their thousands low payment workers. He might have a Kung Fu skillsoft, but nothing that a taser and the advantage of surprise couldn't handle.
Companies that are extratorial will just make their workers never leave concern property. But we have especially chosen Corporation XY because they aren't extratorial.
You really have to wonder, why a company chooses to implant 300 k nuyen skillwires into low payment workers, if they can't shut them away in an arcology afterwards. It's like they are begging to be robbed. It's probably an old habbit, from when the skilwire system was only worth one-twentieth of was it is now."

Runner 1: "Wait a second. There are thousands of low payment wageslaves with expensive skillwires walking in the streets. With almost zero security. Even used skillwires still have a streetworth of 100 k nuyen. Why do I keep breaking into corporate facilities and risk getting my ass shot?
Why don't we just hack their cars, let them drive into the barrens, wait there to be the first to rob them, deliver them to a street doc, have that skillwire system extracted, let them wake up later in a bathtube full of ice, and have made 100 k nuyen pofit?
I have done worse for 100 k nuyen. We could lay low a long time with that much money."

Runner 3: "I have a streetdoc connection that would be willing to assist. I will call him."

Runner 2: "I will get ice for the bathtube."

Runner 4: "I have hacked already five cars of skillwired low payment wageslaves while you were speaking. We have to hurry to be in the barrens in time."

Mr Johnson: "Could you please first fulfill our contract? Time might be pressing. We fear that other corporations might also be interested in extracting Joe Nobody."

[Jaid]

Mr Johnson: "Now gentleman, that you have agreed on the extraction job with a payment of 10,000 nuyen per teammember, here are some informations about the target subject."
*A image of some random guy pops up in the holo-projector that is build into the table*
"The person in this image is Joe Nobody, your target. He is currently employed in Corporation XY. He started there 1 week ago.
He is 21 year old and dropped out of school when he was 15. He has absoluly no educations or qualifications of any kind and is a failure in most aspects of life. We want him for our company.
As I told you before, you will have to deal with minimum security as he lives in one of the worse parts of Renton."

Runner 1: *nervously clears throat* "No education or qualifications you say? Why you want him? Has he magical potential or is some kind of 'chosen one'? Could he be dangerous?"

Mrs Johnson: "No, don't worry, he is nothing of that. It's just that Corporation XY implantated a skillwire system into him, thats worth hundred thousands of nuyens. So it's actually way cheaper for us to pay runners to extract uneducated workers from other corporations, than it would be to implant them with skillwires ourself."

Runner 2: "If he has such expensive implants, won't he have personal bodyguards?"

Mr Johnson: "Most likely not. No company can afford to give personal bodyguards to each of their thousands low payment workers. He might have a Kung Fu skillsoft, but nothing that a taser and the advantage of surprise couldn't handle.
Companies that are extratorial will just make their workers never leave concern property. But we have especially chosen Corporation XY because they aren't extratorial.
You really have to wonder, why a company chooses to implant 300 k nuyen skillwires into low payment workers, if they can't shut them away in an arcology afterwards. It's like they are begging to be robbed. It's probably an old habbit, from when the skilwire system was only worth one-twentieth of was it is now."

Runner 1: "Wait a second. There are thousands of low payment wageslaves with expensive skillwires walking in the streets. With almost zero security. Even used skillwires still have a streetworth of 100 k nuyen. Why do I keep breaking into corporate facilities and risk getting my ass shot?
Why don't we just hack their cars, let them drive into the barrens, wait there to be the first to rob them, deliver them to a street doc, have that skillwire system extracted, let them wake up later in a bathtube full of ice, and have made 100 k nuyen pofit?
I have done worse for 100 k nuyen. We could lay low a long time with that much money."

Runner 3: "I have a streetdoc connection that would be willing to assist. I will call him."

Runner 2: "I will get ice for the bathtube."

Runner 4: "I have hacked already five cars of skillwired low payment wageslaves while you were speaking. We have to hurry to be in the barrens in time."

Mr Johnson: "Could you please first fulfill our contract? Time might be pressing. We fear that other corporations might also be interested in extracting Joe Nobody."

while you're at it, you forgot to dismantle their cars and sell them for spare parts. i mean, you already hacked them and got them to a location of your choosing, no sense wasting any of that effort, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[DrZaius]

while you're at it, you forgot to dismantle their cars and sell them for spare parts. i mean, you already hacked them and got them to a location of your choosing, no sense wasting any of that effort, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

There has to be some Dumpshock corollary to Godwin's Law that no matter what people are arguing about, at some point someone is going to bring up stealing cars instead of doing Shadowruns.

[Sendaz]

Mrs Johnson: "No, don't worry, he is nothing of that. It's just that Corporation XY implantated a skillwire system into him, thats worth hundred thousands of nuyens. So it's actually way cheaper for us to pay runners to extract uneducated workers from other corporations, than it would be to implant them with skillwires ourself."

Brilliant from the budget angle, am sure accounting will approve.

There has to be some Dumpshock corollary to Godwin's Law that no matter what people are arguing about, at some point someone is going to bring up stealing cars instead of doing Shadowruns.

Interestingly sometimes it seems easier to break into a megacorp lab and make off with that prototype than it is to successfully steal a car, co-opt the owndership and get it to the chop shop/ fence.