Fire and Frost Options

[Prime Mover]

New novel up for sale on Drivethru fiction. Bought $8 and change.
Epub and Mobi format no pdf, had to download new reader app, wont open in Goodreader on Ipad.

[Prime Mover]

Put it in Dream reader so could listen as an audio book while did some other work. The drawn out spirit speech is hilarious this way. And it keeps reading AR as Arkansas. Just a little ways in but two things I appreciate in SR novels knowledge about flavor and setting and well written action. So far not disappointed.

[Not of this Worl...]

As someone who liked the old Fasa era novels but finds most (not all) of the transhumanist fiction a huge disappointment how likely am I to enjoy it? I like most all Shadowrun matrerial except the xbox and 4th edition reboots which I think are drek. I've been drawn back with 5th edition rules, I do not know if the setting is going anywhere I like though.

[Prime Mover]

As a huge fan of SR and new fan of Transhumanism thanks to Eclipse Phase.
Fire and Frost is definitely the former, more like old school Shadowrun fiction.
So far seems more story/character driven with references to SR specific setting info in the right places.

[Sendaz]

It is an interesting Pro/Con as it is written with the game rules in mind for a bit of it.

Not all SR novels always do so remember, many novels played fast and loose to keep the story flowing or just because they didn't know the setting that well.

I liked the novel as a gamer reading fiction for the setting, others will have to decide if they like the style.

I bought the book while I was back in the states, and as a larger paperback it seemed fairly well put together.

[AJCarrington]

New novel up for sale on Drivethru fiction. Bought $8 and change.
Epub and Mobi format no pdf, had to download new reader app, wont open in Goodreader on Ipad.

For future reference, the ePub format will open just fine with the iBooks app (Apple).

[Not of this Worl...]

There was a nice sample pamphlet in Shadowrun Crossfire for the novel.

Not enough grognards for me. The 4th edition decision to suddenly eliminate all Shadowslang still annoys the living daylights out of me. That said, it was measures better than most of the other 4th/5th edition fiction I've read.

[arenn]

I read Fire and Frost. I've read all the old FASA novels and most of the officially released fiction that's been put out since. I keep hoping to find Shadowrun novels or stories that are like the first 2/3 of the FASA novels. Alas, no luck. And Fire and Frost continues the trend. This is basically a fantasy quest story that functions as a set of gaming scenarios. If you're into SR gaming and want to read that, you might like this. But as an actual story, it's weak.

Somebody needs to go back to the old FASA books and take some lessons. The early novels introed the SR world, set up recurring meta-narratives and characters, and generally created characters and stories that were interesting in a media-tie in type of way. I could easily still enjoy re-reading them and have done so many times. If you're writing a novel then you need to think novel first, not gaming scenarios. At least if you want to reach any audience outside hard core gamers.

[binarywraith]

Really, most of the earlier SR novels work because they're written more in the cyberpunk tradition. Gritty and street-level, with a lot in common with the classic film noir detective story. Kenson's SR4 stuff read much more like that annoying guy in every gaming group cornered you to go on at you for several hours about how cool his character was. Or an RA Salvatore novel, which is essentially the same thing with a better publicist.

[JonathanC]

Really, most of the earlier SR novels work because they're written more in the cyberpunk tradition. Gritty and street-level, with a lot in common with the classic film noir detective story. Kenson's SR4 stuff read much more like that annoying guy in every gaming group cornered you to go on at you for several hours about how cool his character was. Or an RA Salvatore novel, which is essentially the same thing with a better publicist.

There were a couple of non-Kenson SR4 novels (Drops of Corruption and Aftershock) that were pretty good reads. I particularly enjoyed Aftershock having a Troll protagonist. The Kenson novels were good for what they were: a (failed) attempt at luring new players into the setting. I think they would have worked better as a graphic novel series, and probably would have picked up more new players as well.

I'm interested in Fire and Frost in theory, but the synopsis isn't grabbing me, and $8 for an e-book just seems ridiculous.

[binarywraith]

Hrm, I think that's the second troll protagonist in the novels, then. After The Profezzur.

Now that I think on it, they've had lots of humans, several elves (one immortal), a couple orcs, and a murderous were-tiger as protagonists, but where's the Dwarf love?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hrm, I think that's the second troll protagonist in the novels, then. After The Profezzur.

Now that I think on it, they've had lots of humans, several elves (one immortal), a couple orcs, and a murderous were-tiger as protagonists, but where's the Dwarf love?

So, in essence, what you are saying, is that they are Short on Dwarf love?
Heh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[binarywraith]

Well, for one of the main metatypes, it's kinda telling that they can't seem to find enough interesting or cool about them to make a protagonist. I mean, they'd be pretty much like normal human characters only with occasional griping about being short, ne?

[JonathanC]

There are, in general, very few novels with a dwarf as the main protagonist. It's not just a Shadowrun problem.

[Sendaz]

There are, in general, very few novels with a dwarf as the main protagonist. It's not just a Shadowrun problem.

Aye, it's a pretty short list. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Critias]

Hrm, I think that's the second troll protagonist in the novels, then. After The Profezzur.

Now that I think on it, they've had lots of humans, several elves (one immortal), a couple orcs, and a murderous were-tiger as protagonists, but where's the Dwarf love?

A Dwarf was sort of the main character of the old Shadowboxer novel. I'm hanging with a "sort of" instead of explaining, because even though it's dozens of years old I don't want to spoil it if it's new to you.

[Vegetaman]

Whoa, a physical book!? Dang. I have a few e-novellas (Neat, Sail Away Sweet Sister, The Vladivostok Gauntlet, and Another Rainy Night), but have been craving a physical novel for years now.

[Angelone]

I can't seem to find a good reader for this. The ones I've downloaded always start me back at the beginning when I tab out of the window or the format is all messed up. Any suggestions?

[JesterZero]

I can't seem to find a good reader for this. The ones I've downloaded always start me back at the beginning when I tab out of the window or the format is all messed up. Any suggestions?

I just sent the .mobi version to Kindle, and it's been fine. The occasional typography issue pops up (as is common with Kindle in general), but nothing like what you describe.

Also, it's occasionally rather obvious that the author wasn't as familiar with certain nuances of the Sixth World as one might like, but no ereader will fix that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[binarywraith]

Any examples, Jester? I'm just curious if they line up with similar failures to Read The Books that pop up elsewhere.

[JesterZero]

Sure. To be fair, most are pretty minor.

I'm away from my ereader (and only about 75% of the way though the book), but off the top of my head:

• Metatypes & HMHVV: I'll put this one first, and freely admit that it's possible this was retconned in SR5 and I simply missed it. But one of the characters is a goblin, and an articulate, sympathetic, intelligent goblin at that. All of which is problematic if the last word on goblins was Paranormal Animals of Europe. Again...there may be a recent retcon and I simply missed it.
• Magic In General: Drain is clearly driven by the plot at some points rather than the actions being performed. Some spells are cast during impossibly short periods of time (I'm being picky here, but at one point a mage jumps out a window, acquires a target, casts a spell, and lands...all within what would be about a 0.78 second window of opportunity). At one point the mage is also clearly chain-summoning spirits, but I think that's allowed again (or at least vague) in SR5, so perhaps it's legit; some of the SR5 folks could probably give you a definitive answer there.
• Magic In Particular: Some spells seem to have been chosen because they sound cool, or name-dropped for other reasons. For example, Stunball is clearly assumed to both NOT be an AOE spell, and also to have some sort of a Blast elemental effect. At one point an adept picks up a weapon foci and seems to use it to full effect immediately (although to be fair, that's not entirely clear).
• Combat In General: There's a fair amount of...cinematic license...with some of the combat scenes. Which I'm largely ok with, but if you're the kind of person who's calculating range modifiers in your head, there are a few points where you'll notice some things are clearly impossible. Like an adept casually nailing someone with a throwing knife from 150 feet away...which would require a STR of 10 or so...which they really don't seem to have.

Overall, it's rather middle-of-the-road as SR novels go. Certain fixtures are either explicitly or implicitly given the Big Bad gloss, and it's the usual suspects: Humanis variants, Aztechnology, dragons, etc. The author is clearly primarily concerned with giving an overview of the SR5 Sixth World, and setting details...and to a certain extent, narrative choices...tend to take a backseat to that. I get that, and I'm inclined to modify my expectations accordingly. I wouldn't say if falls into either the upper or lower quartiles of SR fiction, and so it's neither particularly compelling or aggravating. As an SR fan, it's entertaining enough to warrant reading, although I don't think I'm going ever feel the need to read it again.

[Sengir]

Metatypes & HMHVV: I'll put this one first, and freely admit that it's possible this was retconned in SR5 and I simply missed it. But one of the characters is a goblin, and an articulate, sympathetic, intelligent goblin at that. All of which is problematic if the last word on goblins was Paranormal Animals of Europe. Again...there may be a recent retcon and I simply missed it.

As of RC, Goblins are a playable race (though they still take the biggest hit to Logic). I think in RC it even mentioned that some of them can be smart and scheming like the classic genius psychopath.

Some spells are cast during impossibly short periods of time

How much can be done while vaulting over a table obviously is prime candidate for dramatic license, but SR5 also introduced "Reckless Casting": You can cast a spell as Simple Action, but with increased (+3) Drain.


PS: "Goblin" also was used as a synonym for metatypes which were the result of goblinization in early books, could that be what the book means or does it really refer to HMHVV infection?

[JesterZero]

Oh that's right. I had forgotten that RC had that whole section on Infected characters. And to answer your question, it's explicitly HMHVV, not in the sense of "goblinization." A few of the characters are lauded ad nauseam for their lack of prejudice and tolerance in being willing to work with her.

And yes, I'm being a bit picky about the casting times; that example stuck out simply because in the context of the novel, that particular casting was clearly narrative window-dressing. The author name drops a number of spells, but at other times seems to assume there is such a thing as generic magic where the mage can simply sort of create cantrip-like effects that spontaneously effect the world in ways of their choosing. None of it is particularly glaring, and all of it could possibly be explained within the context of SR magic, but it's not likely. Does the mage really have a spell that sifts dirt? Or warms his hands specifically? So it's not an outright party foul, but it makes me raise an eyebrow when I see it more than once.

I just finished the book last night, and now that I'm able to look back on it, I think that many of my complaints about internal consistency that occur during fight scenes point to the weakness of fight scenes in general throughout the book, and not just a misunderstanding of Sixth World metaphysics. Particularly in the climactic battle, there are some absolute howlers that have nothing to Shadowrun specifically.

So yeah...not the greatest piece of SR fiction, but not the worst either. If I had to guess, I'd surmise that the author had little or no prior experience with Shadowrun, but honestly did try to do their research.

At least the Necronomicon doesn't put in an appearance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[DeathStrobe]

Really? I felt the novel was trying too hard to be Shadowrun the tabletop game in novel form. Very specifically, by making encounters, like that of what a PC Team of Shadowrunners would encounter while doing fairly mundane tasks. Like when they're driving through Amazonia and are attacked by the natives. I felt that didn't add anything to the narrative and just kind of was there as an encounter, because clearly if nothing happens while you travel, then that would be boring. So a GM would come up with something like that for the PCs to do while in transit.

And there were a lot of things like that. They didn't feel like they were being driven by the plot, as much as they were little encounters for the runners to hit. I don't know, its such a hard line to know what's meaningful plot advancement and what's just something that was added to make the story not just pure plot advancement.

Anyway, I didn't think the actions were very "game breaking." You really can do a lot of that stuff in the role play system.

However, I do have a problem with magic in Antarctica. The place should be a mana void. There is very little life there, so it should be near impossible to cast spells, let alone allow spirits to exist. However, this can be handwaved away by the magical McGuffin that is that tower.

[JesterZero]

I could honestly see that being argued either way. There are some places where the plot clearly trumps Sixth World metaphysics. There are some places where Sixth World metaphysics feel forced and shoehorned.

My $0.02 is that the overriding concern of the author was to relaunch the novel line, and so we get a story that tries to introduce anything and everything to the reader in rapid fire fashion. Seattle! Mage! Adept! Decker! Chicago! HMHVV! Humanis! Troll! Rigger! Aztlan! Amazonia! Dragon! Antarctica! Alchera! Tropes!

That's more of an observation than a critique. The Secrets of Power trilogy did much the same thing, but from what I recall spread it out over a significantly larger page-count.

I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot here, so I'll probably just bow out of the thread now. Again, it's not an awful novel by any stretch. I think there's a ton of tweaks or major revisions that could have made it better, but at the end of the day, what we have is what we have. Off the top of my head, prior to this the last two significant fiction releases were Neat and Spells and Chrome. For the most part, I really liked Neat. For the most part, I really disliked Spells and Chrome. I think this lands between the two.