Best chargen system, How do they compare? Options

[Smiley]

Just wondering what everyone used and why they chose that method. Why do you think one is better than the others?

[Raptor1033]

we do priority or point, player decides which. so basically the magic users go for priority and the mundanes go for point. definately if the character is mundane human

[theartthief]

Personally, I like the BP system due to flexibility. There again I don't make a ton of magic users. If I am playing mundane human I would change my answer to Sum-to-ten as one "A" and two "B"s kicks serious tail.

I have never used BECK's.

- theartthief

[Connor]

I'm currently a BeCKS fan, which is what I voted, but I think it depends on the group really. For inexperienced groups I think sticking to the priority system is best, and perhaps even new players joining an experienced group.

For the more experienced, whichever system they like best is fine by me. BeCKS just seems to fit my character generation style better than the other systems. Plus, I find that using it across the board sort of works as a good meter of balancing characters and npc's against each other since you have a single karma count to use as a rough gauge.

[Arethusa]

I'm a devoted fan of BeCKs. It's not perfect, but given the heavy specialization forced by the other systems, nothing else really compares.

[Diesel]

BeCKs brings about a whole different level of min/maxing. Before they'd go for the skill of six over the four and the two. Now they just specialize extensively in the skills where the likelihood of using a non-specializing is very low. Woohaw. :\

[Arethusa]

In terms of skills, it doesn't allow for any more min maxing than you'd get in game. Any brokenness there is just a result of SR's handling of skills, not BeCKS.

[Glyph]

I like build points because they are customizable to the type of game you are trying to run. Although 120 points is too little - most games on the boards seem to run 130 points or so, with 120 points used for things like beginning runners and ganger campaigns, and that is about right. I like BeCKS for street-level games, and I like some of its concepts (Karma costs to buy skills so that a 6-point skill is more expensive than two 4-point skill, Contacts handled separately from Resources, Resources broken down into increments, etc.) but it doesn't seem to work as well for certain types such as otaku.

[Connor]

No system is ever going to be immune to min-maxing unless it's a completely random system with no input from the player. The best ways to combat munchiness or min-maxing aren't messing with the generation system, but talking with the player as the GM and working out a way the player can create a character without needing to resort to tricks and loopholes. And to make the player realize that the game might not nessecarily be starting out at a particularly high level of skill and a lot of things can be worked for in game.

Just because you can min-max excessively or create an uber-munchkin character using a particular generation system doesn't mean that character is going to be accepted into a game.

[tjn]

Preface: Somehow, somewhere, this post became a rant. I apologize if anyone takes it thewrong way, but it does adequetly describe my feelings towards the different character creation systems.

I go with Sum to Ten, mostly because I have problems with the other systems then for any like of the Sum to Ten.

Under normal priority, it produces too many metas IMO, if the character is mundane.

BP is a touch too harsh on magic users, full mages should be 24, aspected around 18. I also dislike the point costs for shapeshifters, ghouls, metavarients, and changelings.

Shapeshifters are boned with the two physical stats, ghouls have so many penalties it's rediculous to charge for it, and metavarients and SURGE should be choices based upon concept IMO. There's nothing too extreme about either, and both make the runner conspicous as all hell, which is a major drawback for a runner.

BeCKS however, drives me batty. The arbitrary numbers are whacked. It amplifes all the problems with the BP system while at the same time adding even more number crunching.

First off, it overcharges for magic users, especially in the light that spell points aren't included and they have to buy the attributes and skills to work with it as well.

Trolls, Ghouls, Otaku, and Shapeshifters all have some pretty big penalties inheirant to them that severely hamper the character, which put them out of line for their Karma costs.

Trolls: Being Fraggin Huge is more then a two point flaw (10 Karma). It's a major problem when the world is made for those who are 5'8. I'm 6'4" and I still have problems with ceiling fans and fitting into normal places. Add that all their equipment costs 25% more, and they're conspicous as hell. Sure they're the munchkin's favorite race, but only if the GM doesn't enforce their penalties.

Ghouls: Forced to eat metaflesh. Blind. Conspicous. Large amounts of prejudice. Dual Natured. Sensitive System. Less Essence, less magic, less charisma, less intelligence. Mild allergy Sunlight. All for two points in body, one in strength, being able to run a bit faster, having a little better hearing and sense of smell, and they're immune to VITAS. For 50 Karma? WTF mate.

Otaku are an exercise in futility. The price to get "normal" Otaku mental scores, computer skill, and channels are just prohibative, let alone trying something a bit different or out of the box and still remaining a competant Otaku.

Shapeshifters, boned again. The two attribute thing is a huge karma sink, they're dual natured, have vulnerabilities to silver, are actively hunted, not considered sentient by the world at large, and not really much of a point to play one enless they're magically active due to the no cyber thing (see above about magic). Regeneration's nice, but not 120 karma nice.

If concentrating on mundanes with an eye towards generalization, BeCKS works well. Start adding the fantasy side of Shadowrun and it falls to pieces IMO.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Connor]

[tjn]

[shadd4d]

I use the point system. It's worked. It doesn't work the best, but it does work. I never really liked the priority system, although I have made use of it in some instances.

Don

[Shockwave_IIc]

I prefer the Bp's myself as well, I find Priority (and thus Sum-to-10) to inflexable, due to the "you must have this this or this many skills/ Attribute Points

Becks, I like the idea behind Becks but i tend to find that theres too many Skill 4/7's with the Becks system, And some charatcer types really do get choked under this system.

With Bp's it has just about the right amount of flexability init for me. It's not perfect but some house rules it's good enough (Sphnyx's reasource system as an example)

[Moonstone Spider]

I find Sum-To-10 the simplest to use but all Shadowrun Chargen systems seem to have the same horrible flaw: Resources.

I spend more time trying to buy gear for my character than every other aspect (Except possibly the story but I usually think that up while I'm driving or working so it's not particularly relevant.) Frequently I try to make a low-resource character, but crumb! I need 6100 :nuyen: worth of gear! Now I've got to buy 5 points worth of resources and that gives 20000 :nuyen: which means I have to figure out what to do with the other 10,900 I didn't want (Because paying points for 1/10th the nuyen sucks hugely). And the fact that it jumps so hugely is an irritation as well, the first 5 points is only worth 15,000 more Nuyen but the last 5 is worth 600,000? Why is 30 points of resources worth more than double what 25 points are?

I hate that. And it seems to work that way. In every system.

[Shockwave_IIc]

Thats why i use this (from Sphynx)
-5 ======= 500¥
-4 = 1,400¥
-3 = 2,300¥
-2 = 3,200¥
-1 = 4,100¥
0 ===== 5,000¥
1 = 8,000¥
2 = 11,000¥
3 = 14,000¥
4 = 17,000¥
5 ==== 20,000¥
6 = 34,000¥
7 = 48,000¥
8 = 62,000¥
9 = 76,000¥
10 ==== 90,000¥
11 = 112,000¥
12 = 134,000¥
13 = 156,000¥
14 = 178,000¥
15 === 200,000¥
16 = 240,000¥
17 = 280,000¥
18 = 320,000¥
19 = 360,000¥
20 === 400,000¥
21 = 450,000¥
22 = 500,000¥
23 = 550,000¥
24 = 600,000¥
25 === 650,000¥
26 = 720,000¥
27 = 790,000¥
28 = 860,000¥
29 = 930,000¥
30 = 1,000,000¥

[Austere Emancipa...]

BeCKS gives Resources per Karma. You could get 6,000 or 6,500 :nuyen:, 12 or 13 Karma on Resources.

[Siege]

Knowing two terminal min-maxers, I'll second the "it's the gamer not the game" school of thought on that subject.

I prefer BP for the sheer flexability -- and I've never had a problem with having too much cash. :grinbig:

-Siege

[Lilt]

Priorities is fairly limited

The points system over-charges for magic compared to priorities. It's either that or it under-charges for sammies.

Becks is interesting. Having the same price for stuff at chargen as later in the game encourages keeping stats and skills low, but that can make it a bit boring for some people.

Sum-to-10 is the priorities system for min-maxers. OOh! A system just for me :)

[toturi]

I stick to one of the 2 Canon systems, either Priorities or Build Points.

Usually Build Points but sometimes Priorities is used for Meta-Awakened.

[Caine Hazen]

I like the build points, I'd go with BeCKs as a second...priorities are just whack!! (wiggity whack? no just regular type....) BeCKs seems to confuse my players though, so the vote goes to build pts..

I used priorities to determine my points though...I made 40 characters in priorities and averaged out the points it took to make them. The average turned out to be 127.8 points, so I go with 128 points for build totals...keeps em close to priorites level charas, but gives the players flexablility...I hadn't seen sphynx's money though..gotta use that next time

[booklord]

I allow players to use either sum to 10, build points, or a slightly modified BECKS.

( I found how it handled netahumans like trolls with high physical stats and low mental stats troubling and had already house ruled that when using karma to raise attributes you did it after subtracting racial modifiers [Troll raising str from 9 to 10 would cost the same as a human raising str from 5 to 6])

Anyway, what I found is that players would make thier characters under BECKS (which by far is the most complicated) then try to remake them under Sum to 10 and build point systems to see if they could get a better deal. ( Oh, those wascally players )

Personally I liked BECKS characters best since you could get a lot of cheap but useful skills under BECKS. ( for example Biotech(first aid) of 2(4) is fairly cheap under BECKS and very useful on during a shadowrun ) But if a player is going to min/max their character anyway they might as well use the sum to 10 or build point systems.

[A Clockwork Lime]

The biggest problem with BeCKS is its own philosophy.

In a style that's nearly bordering on the obnoxious, it goes on and on about how it was disgusted by the arbitrary nature of the standard character creation systems and how they ignore their own character improvement rules using Karma. But then on the same hand, it ignores two major aspects of the game where Karma *is* clearly established and used to measure character improvement; the rules for Karma-for-Cash and the rules for buying off a flaw (which basically sets Edge and Flaw points at 10 Karma a pop).

But because Bethyaga didn't like either of those/couldn't get them to work, he threw it aside and just went the arbitrary route.

Basically all he ended up doing was creating an overcomplicated number-crunching intensive system that introduces staged costs for attributes and skills while overpricing everything else. It does nothing to bring character creation into the same lines as character improvement anymore than the costs for races or magic does in that system or any other. All it does is penalize players (yes, I said players) for being the experienced specialists they're assumed to be in the game.

'Course, then you have his personal dislikes about the game slipping in, like the bit about no initiations (or none with a group or ordeal in the so-called "extended" phase) or the lack of applying things like mnemonic enhancers (which I can agree to during standard creation, but not extended).

[gfen]

Everyone says BeCKS is ths wonderful, munchkin=proof system and I htink they're all horribly horribly wrong.

Not that I didn't try to get away with it at my last game, mind you. :)

I'm used to priorities, I like priorties, and it works well. My sole experience with BP was magical metas, and I wasn't happy. Now I realize that's because the system is a little too expensive for that, so perhaps BP isn't so bad.

I dunno, the made the game with priorties and BP. While I'm not one for constant, blind loyalty to some cause, I have to say they must've had their reasons, and not only that but those two systems (especially priority) are universal. Everything else is just a big, fancy house rule.