Jumping into Shadowrun, (with absolutely no PnP experience) Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sure, he needs to be. In things like Electronic Warfare, Hardware, or, if there's no dedicated specialist, rigging. Decker has a large sphere of responsibility as an archetype, so there is always stuff that's part of this sphere to sink points into instead of trying to be a jack of all trades.

And one of the things he needs to be competent in is combat. Even if it is just with a Pistol. There WILL be times where his firearms expertise will be tested to keep him alive. If he is not up to the task, he will be a Dead Decker/Hacker. *shrug*

[Cain]

Where will you be permanently crippled? You haven't shown that. Please, using the SR5 rules, cite page numbers that state wired reflexes "permanently cripples" you in the matrix.

Page 230, the second paragraph.
The tables on pages 65, 439 (the one on the right), 246 and 456.

Page 230: Nothing about wired reflexes or "permanently crippled".
Page 65: Character creation. No mention of matrix attributes at all in that table.
Page 439 (right table):Cyberdeck costs. No mention of wired reflexes or permanently crippling a character.
Page 246: Program costs. No mention of Wired reflexes or permanently crippling a character.
Page 439: Wired Reflexes cost chart. No mention of them crippling you in the matrix.

So, there is no mention in any of your citations that wired reflexes cripple you in the matrix. You're making a huge assumption that having wires prevents you from using Hot Sim. You're very, very wrong on that one.

>"Combat Turns are broken up into a series of Initiative Passes"
>IP do not exist

4.5-style IP do not exist. The term changed meaning. Quit playing semantics.

Sure, he needs to be. In things like Electronic Warfare, Hardware, or, if there's no dedicated specialist, rigging. Decker has a large sphere of responsibility as an archetype, so there is always stuff that's part of this sphere to sink points into instead of trying to be a jack of all trades.

Riggers are optional in every edition. Electronic Warfare is likewise optional, it depends on rather or not the GM is using a lot of drones against you. Anyone can have Hardware.

But you know what'll be in every game? Shooting. Every shadowrunner needs to be competent in combat, or they're a serious liability to the team.

[Jaid]

i presume the "crippling" he's referring to is not having the absolute best deck possible in character creation.

of course, this completely ignores that the second best chargen deck is very nearly as good (since the attributes mostly effect limits, the real loss is from running one less program), and is quite a bit less expensive. or that being able to select it in the first place inherently requires priority A in resources, which in turn means you have about 100,000 nuyen left to buy stuff other than a cyberdeck... and that programs are dirt cheap, and there isn't exactly a huge amount of 'ware needed to boost your hacking effectiveness if that is your goal. you should still have easily 30k nuyen left to buy extras, which can go a long way when you're not looking for the best of the best equipment.

also, we're still operating under the crazy assumption that not having cerebral enhance 2 and the sony CIY-720 are absolute requirements for a hacker to be at all effective in 5th edition, which is utter nonsense. they're nice, of course, but we're typically looking at adding maybe 1-2 dice onto your skills, which will have pretty minimal effect, vs adding substantial amounts to your combat effectiveness elsewhere.

also, i've looked again in the rules for suppressing fire in SR5. i have seen absolutely nothing that says you can only be shot once. there's stuff that says moving into or out of the area risks getting hit, and other stuff indicating that you can dodge, or drop prone, and stuff indicating that if you get back out of cover you might get hit, and stuff indicating that if you aren't in cover you might get hit, but absolutely nothing whatsoever which says that once you've risked being hit once that's the end of it and you don't have to worry about suppressing fire for the rest of the round.

[Cain]

Actually, what he's implying is that Wired Reflexes somehow prevent you from using Hot Sim. Which, in addition to being totally wrong, is only a +2 bonus to full VR. Hardly "crippling", especially when you can make up for that in other ways.

I haven't crunched the numbers fully, but it also looks like the best chargen deck is something of a trap option. You get more benefit buying other gear/ware than you get out of the absolute best deck.

[Jaid]

well, yes and no.

the money can do more elsewhere, it's true.

but quite frankly, if you don't buy it at chargen, when are you ever likely to have enough money to afford it?

now, i'm not suggesting that you're just going to find the cash for rating 1 wired reflexes lying on the ground one day or anything like that (although, you might very well find used rating 1 wired reflexes lying on the ground inconveniently trapped inside the corpse of someone who got in the way of your team). but the simple fact is, saving up the ~40k nuyen to buy wired reflexes later is much much much more plausible than saving up the ~350,000 nuyen to buy a better cyberdeck. in essence, whatever deck you start with is likely to be the deck you use indefinitely, so in that sense it does make sense to buy the best one.

i do agree, however, that it's a bit ridiculous to focus on having the absolute best to the exclusion of all else. while i can see some logic in wanting the best cyberdeck, i can also see logic in having another ~100k nuyen to spend on not being completely useless in any situation that doesn't call for hacking.

[Cain]

Looking at it, the difference between the absolute best chargen deck, and the second-best, is about 130,000 nuyen. That's almost enough for Wired 2 right there. The stat differences aren't that huge, so the question becomes: is the small gain worth the opportunity cost? I'm not at all certain that it is, although it's a difficult comparison. I do agree that cheap decks are a trap option, especially since better decks cost so much.

However, it does look like the difference between Fatum's theoretical uberl337 hacker, and an actual, functioning decker/shadowrunner, is not very large. In fact, it might not exist at all, since there's other ways to make up the difference with the cash saved. I'm definitely thinking that you can create a decker who's among the best in the matrix, and not absolutely helpless everywhere else.

[Fatum]

But let's look at what happens if you sacrifice an attribute in SR4.5. First of all, you lose a die off every pool that attribute factored into. That means, if you needed certain skills at a given level, you had to spend more to correct for that-- which requires even more adjusting. In addition, you might lose off a derived value, like Initiative. That could be fixed with augmentations or magic-- but that would require more BP on resources, which is another spend. Finally, you cripple yourself in the long run, since attributes are expensive to raise with karma. Not spending the absolute max on attributes was a trap, because of this.

Funny how in that topic losing 1 die from your non-essential pools is "crippling yourself", but in this topic losing at least three dice to hacking in AR and getting worse gear is a-ok, nothing to fret about.

[Cain]

Funny how in that topic losing 1 die from your non-essential pools is "crippling yourself", but in this topic losing at least three dice to hacking in AR and getting worse gear is a-ok, nothing to fret about.

That's because you're discussing the wrong system, at the wrong points. In SR4,5 losing one point off an attribute is really expensive to raise back up, and it doesn't hurt just one dice pool, it hurts every one linked to it. In SR5, you don't actually lose those 3 dice you claim, since wired reflexes doesn't prevent you from using hot sim. You're trying to cherrypick examples by combining both systems, except it doesn't actually work like you claim. Remember, I went through every single example you pulled up: nowhere does it say wired reflexes cost you dice when you deck, and it actually helps in many cases.

[Fatum]

Losing a point of an attribute that does not affect your primary pools is non-consequental, especially if that attribute is low.
Wired reflexes, as shown in the materials referenced, cost you quite a bit of money which you need on the equipment that is actually related to what a hacker is supposed to do, potentially forcing you to up the priority spent on resources. In the fourth, it also costs you a bunch of Essence which you could instead spent on implants actually useful for hacking - these are not yet around in the fifth, at a glance.
As for VR, I seem to remember suggestions to hack stuff in AR only now that you have wires coming up earlier in this topic.

[Cain]

Losing a point of an attribute that does not affect your primary pools is non-consequental, especially if that attribute is low.
Wired reflexes, as shown in the materials referenced, cost you quite a bit of money which you need on the equipment that is actually related to what a hacker is supposed to do, potentially forcing you to up the priority spent on resources. In the fourth, it also costs you a bunch of Essence which you could instead spent on implants actually useful for hacking - these are not yet around in the fifth, at a glance.
As for VR, I seem to remember suggestions to hack stuff in AR only now that you have wires coming up earlier in this topic.

It does depend on the attribute, but under SR4.5, if you're going to dump a stat, you'll do it at the beginning, when you assign attributes. When you come back later to fix a shortfall elsewhere, your dump stats are already as low as they can safely go, so you now need to sacrifice off your needed stats.

Wired reflexes cost 40,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) in SR5. You can easily afford that and a good cyberdeck.

And where did I say "AR only"? You're misquoting me. You're the one who stated that wired reflexes would "permanently cripple" a decker, supposedly because they prevent them from using hot sim... which they don't. A good decker should be able to operate in all modes.

[Fatum]

It does depend on the attribute, but under SR4.5, if you're going to dump a stat, you'll do it at the beginning, when you assign attributes. When you come back later to fix a shortfall elsewhere, your dump stats are already as low as they can safely go, so you now need to sacrifice off your needed stats.

That's some hardcore optimization you have going there. My players like to leave their Cha or Int higher than at the 1 they need.

Wired reflexes cost 40,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) in SR5. You can easily afford that and a good cyberdeck.

At which priority? Oh, and are these the only two things a hacker needs now?

And where did I say "AR only"? You're misquoting me.

Right around where you brought AR hacking up at all. Why optimize for VR if you intend to hack in AR as you suggest?

You're the one who stated that wired reflexes would "permanently cripple" a decker, supposedly because they prevent them from using hot sim... which they don't.

Surprisingly enough, spending resources on junk unrelated to your area of expertise leaves you with less resources to spend on it. Who would've thought.
As for your "supposedly because", you are quick enough to suppose nonsense, smells strongly of straw.

A good decker should be able to operate in all modes.

A good decker should be good in his area of expertise, not try to be a bit of a sam, a bit of a shadow, and a bit of everything, which requires attributes completely different from the ones hacking needs.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You do realize, Fatum, that Spec Ops operatives are trained in a lot more than just Firearms, right? Following your logic, there should never be any reason to do so, but since they do have other tasks they must complete (you know, to stay alive and functional so that they can stay on mission) other than shooting, it is highly beneficial that they be trained to perform those tasks.

[Jaid]

there's a world of difference between "you can and should be able to hack in AR" and "you absolutely must hack in AR all the time without exception".

hacking in VR is nice. sometimes it isn't possible. not getting into a gunfight is nice. sometimes that isn't possible either.

shadowrunners who prepare for those eventualities tend to have a better survival rate than those who don't, because if you keep running they will happen.

[binarywraith]

At least in my games, Shadowrunners who don't have skills other than shooty tend to be very short lived, because they can't even get around the neighborhood they live in without constantly pissing off the local gangs or cops.

[Fatum]

You do realize, Fatum, that Spec Ops operatives are trained in a lot more than just Firearms, right? Following your logic, there should never be any reason to do so, but since they do have other tasks they must complete (you know, to stay alive and functional so that they can stay on mission) other than shooting, it is highly beneficial that they be trained to perform those tasks.

RL spec ops operatives are trained in their area of expertise. Even the deep-behind-the-lines GRU sabotage teams that the USSR trained had specialization: the gunner was the only one with a machinegun, the comm officer was the only one who was trained to use the satcomm (or indeed had the cypher keys to do so), etcetera. Real-life specialists specialize.

hacking in VR is nice. sometimes it isn't possible. not getting into a gunfight is nice. sometimes that isn't possible either.

I'm hard-pressed to offer a scenario where all of the troupe necessarily has to participate in a firefight if it includes competent face and hacker.

At least in my games, Shadowrunners who don't have skills other than shooty tend to be very short lived, because they can't even get around the neighborhood they live in without constantly pissing off the local gangs or cops.

So if your runners have Middle or higher lifestyles, they are still constantly harassed (with deadly violence no less!) in their neighborhood? Man, I heard living in them gated communities was drek, but I never thought it was that drek!

[Jaid]

I'm hard-pressed to offer a scenario where all of the troupe necessarily has to participate in a firefight if it includes competent face and hacker.

off the top of my head, there's an on-site hack required, and after being fast-talked into letting them pass the security mook decided to dig a little deeper after the fact.

frankly, this shouldn't be all that rare... if you're so high up on the totem pole that using the best of the best gear for hacking is a necessity to avoid being completely crippled, you're also high enough on the totem pole that your targets can be expected to take some pretty impressive security measures. after all, if you've managed to get tir ghosts sent after you, it's unlikely that you're hacking the local stuffer shack. more likely you're hacking an extremely secure location controlled heavily by the tir tairngire government and/or military, digging for secrets that are worth protecting with the best of the best that they have.

of course, if you *are* hacking a stuffer shack, odds are good that in a firefight likely to break out there, you can participate just fine with a few points in pistols skill, not completely crap agility, an armour jacket, and an ares predator. if you're in a nice enough part of town to worry about police response, you might also want to have some smoke grenades and non-lethal weapons (you don't want to make the police mad enough to make an example of you).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

RL spec ops operatives are trained in their area of expertise. Even the deep-behind-the-lines GRU sabotage teams that the USSR trained had specialization: the gunner was the only one with a machinegun, the comm officer was the only one who was trained to use the satcomm (or indeed had the cypher keys to do so), etcetera. Real-life specialists specialize.

And yet, real life teams are also capable of taking over any other team members duties if/when needed. I know, I was trained in far to many Secondary MOS's on the off chance that there was need of the training. Yes, I was primarily a Rifleman, but I could step into any other position needed, whether it was for Company Level support (Rockets, Machineguns, Demolitions, Mortars) or Battalion level support (STA, FO, Mortars, Missiles, Heavy Weapons Platforms of various types), as well as interim corpsman, tank/hog driver, radioman, and a few other job descriptions. Just because one has a specialty (which does not have to be the best level in the world to be an actual specialty) does not mean that you do not have other areas of expertise that are required for you to fill your position. Now, I will admit that some of that was likely due to the Branch of service I served in (USMC), and some of that had to do with my desire to learn all that stuff, so the training was afforded to me. But I was far from unique in my Unit; we were the go to Company in our Regiment for special operations outside of an official Spec Ops Unit Designation. The fact that any of us could perform the others jobs made us a very efficient and highly trained unit. We rarely needed any outside reinforcement, since we all had the training. Hell, about 20% were fully Jump Qualified, and about 10% were SCUBA qualified. And the funny thing is that I would STILL not give myself a Ranking of 5 in any of the relevant skills in Shadowrun because I feel that my training puts me at veteran level, not elite. I know others might contest that, but it is how I feel. Which is why I am such a proponent of the Skill Description table in SR4A. It works for how I see things. Even the Description Table in SR5 works, even if they did shift things up a bit. I did not feel it was all that necessary, but it works.

I'm hard-pressed to offer a scenario where all of the troupe necessarily has to participate in a firefight if it includes competent face and hacker.

Not everything always goes to plan (and in fact most things do not), even with a Competent Face and Hacker. And your assumptions that all it takes is a pretty face and some technical competence to avoid combat are pretty laughable. You have apparently never been in a real combat situation then. I can guarantee you that when lead starts flying, EVERYONE shoots back.

So if your runners have Middle or higher lifestyles, they are still constantly harassed (with deadly violence no less!) in their neighborhood? Man, I heard living in them gated communities was drek, but I never thought it was that drek!

Not constantly, No, but you do not stay in the gated community as a Shadowrunner, do you? You go place where they shoot you in the face just for looking sideways at them. You go to Zero-Zone level Corporate Research facilities where they shoot you just for being on the premises. I can go on. Any Shadowrunner who is incapable of throwing lead when it hits the fan is generally a dead Shadowrunner.

[binarywraith]

So if your runners have Middle or higher lifestyles, they are still constantly harassed (with deadly violence no less!) in their neighborhood? Man, I heard living in them gated communities was drek, but I never thought it was that drek!

Ever deal with an HOA? If you don't have the self restraint and the social skills to deal with your neighbor bitching about the color you painted your house, the length of your grass, or how loud you listen to your music without resorting to shooting him in the face, you're not going to last long there.

[Fatum]

off the top of my head, there's an on-site hack required, and after being fast-talked into letting them pass the security mook decided to dig a little deeper after the fact.

If an on-site hack is required, only the shadow has to go in, bringing retranslators or an optic fiber cable with him. Or a drone could do that, if you don't expect much in the ways of opposition. Or a face could pretend to be the tech support. Or the mage can walk in unseen. Or... you get the idea.

Not everything always goes to plan (and in fact most things do not), even with a Competent Face and Hacker. And your assumptions that all it takes is a pretty face and some technical competence to avoid combat are pretty laughable. You have apparently never been in a real combat situation then. I can guarantee you that when lead starts flying, EVERYONE shoots back.

If your runners find themselves in the frontlines as grunts (or, perhaps even worse, doing spec-ops work for the military against actual military regiments), sure, all bets are off. But then again, they also enjoy a noticeable chance of dying to a random 50P artillery shell scattering on their head, so I'm not sure why go there at all.

Not constantly, No, but you do not stay in the gated community as a Shadowrunner, do you? You go place where they shoot you in the face just for looking sideways at them. You go to Zero-Zone level Corporate Research facilities where they shoot you just for being on the premises. I can go on. Any Shadowrunner who is incapable of throwing lead when it hits the fan is generally a dead Shadowrunner.

Shadowrunners tend to go to the places where they are shot in the face on sight in the company of people who can either prevent that from happening at all or at least keep them alive through the ordeal (themselves included). But binarywraith's statement specifically applied to staying in the neighborhood.
As for getting dead, in my experience, shooting is not the skill that keeps a runner alive in a firefight. Dodge and the Athletics group are much more useful for that.

Ever deal with an HOA? If you don't have the self restraint and the social skills to deal with your neighbor bitching about the color you painted your house, the length of your grass, or how loud you listen to your music without resorting to shooting him in the face, you're not going to last long there.

So you need well-developed skills to stay alive during the engagements with HOA representatives? A few shadowrunners I've seen just got a lot more believable as characters.

[Cain]

That's some hardcore optimization you have going there. My players like to leave their Cha or Int higher than at the 1 they need.

Nah, just common everyday optimization. Typical for Sr4.5, really. I take it you can't optimize to this standard?

At which priority? Oh, and are these the only two things a hacker needs now?

A or B suffices, and you're not only misquoting, you're trying a straw man,.

Right around where you brought AR hacking up at all. Why optimize for VR if you intend to hack in AR as you suggest?

Please show me where I said "AR Only". And show, with page references, where in SR5 is says that optimizing for AR prevents you from optimizing in VR as well. You can be good at both, you know.

Surprisingly enough, spending resources on junk unrelated to your area of expertise leaves you with less resources to spend on it. Who would've thought.
As for your "supposedly because", you are quick enough to suppose nonsense, smells strongly of straw.

Wow, so spending money on armor or lifestyle must "permanently cripple" you as a decker, because it's unrelated to your area of expertise. Or weapons. Or anything tht makes a character a *character*, and not a one trick pony. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

A good decker should be good in his area of expertise, not try to be a bit of a sam, a bit of a shadow, and a bit of everything, which requires attributes completely different from the ones hacking needs.

You're assuming those come at the expense of one another. They don't, not in any system of Shadowrun.

[Cain]

RL spec ops operatives are trained in their area of expertise. Even the deep-behind-the-lines GRU sabotage teams that the USSR trained had specialization: the gunner was the only one with a machinegun, the comm officer was the only one who was trained to use the satcomm (or indeed had the cypher keys to do so), etcetera. Real-life specialists specialize.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

You don't know many military folk, do you?

I know a few special ops people. I've even trained with a couple, in my younger days. (They kicked my ass, for the record.) Here's the deal: even though they have specialties, they're all trained to cover for one another. In order to even make the team, you have to be expert or better in every weapon the team fields. So, if the machine gunner goes down, the sniper can pick it up and keep shooting. The riflemen all can operate the comms. The medic knows hot to use the sniper rifle proficiently. And so on.

By the way: you're "hard pressed" to think of a Shadowrun scenario that requires everyone to fight? What about Food Fight? Not only does that draw every member of the team into the fight, it's the oldest Shadowrun scenario there is-- it was originally published in the Sr1 core book. So, safe to say, getting the decker involved in firefights has been part of the game since the beginning.

[Fatum]

Nah, just common everyday optimization. Typical for Sr4.5, really. I take it you can't optimize to this standard?

No, because having characters with ones in some attributes and nines in others is riduculous and not justifiable by the background.

A or B suffices, and you're not only misquoting, you're trying a straw man,.

So you're spending your highest priorities to get that. Surely that comes without alternative costs, eh?
Also, >demonstratingly misquote >accuse the interlocutor of misquoting.

Please show me where I said "AR Only". And show, with page references, where in SR5 is says that optimizing for AR prevents you from optimizing in VR as well. You can be good at both, you know.

You can be good at anything you set your mind to, it just costs you resources which you don't have to spare.

Wow, so spending money on armor or lifestyle must "permanently cripple" you as a decker, because it's unrelated to your area of expertise. Or weapons. Or anything tht makes a character a *character*, and not a one trick pony. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

If your decker is capable of being a perfectly good professional without paying for a lifestyle, of course.

You're assuming those come at the expense of one another. They don't, not in any system of Shadowrun.

So they don't cost the same BPs to acquire, either one or the other? Or they don't compete for the same priorities, with either one or the other getting the higher ones and the points coming with them? That's good to know, but are you sure you're using the same chargen rules as everyone else?

You don't know many military folk, do you?

Actually, I do, both in my family and among my colleagues. Dunno how you do things that side of the globe, but I haven't encountered frogmen who'd also be trained in paradrops (other than maybe to an equivalent of skill rating 1), nor assault team members trained to be vehicle mechanics, nor anyone other than the comm officer having anywhere near professional skills in Hardware, nor military firmware coders trained to perform sabotage and CQC.

[Cain]

So you're spending your highest priorities to get that. Surely that comes without alternative costs, eh?

Not really. Considering you need A or B in SR5 to just afford a decent deck, the rest is up to you. If you can manage those resources efficiently, you can get quite a bit for it.

You can be good at anything you set your mind to, it just costs you resources which you don't have to spare.

So, I didn't actually say it, and you don't actually have examples. How about you build a few deckers in SR5, and then demonstrate it?

If your decker is capable of being a perfectly good professional without paying for a lifestyle, of course.

Wow, look at that goalpost move! Now we're talking *professionals*! Of course, professional also means a standard of behavior... which, in Shadowrun, is represented by social skills. You know, the same ones you said made a decker less effective at his main role? But now, since you say they're professionals, you're conceding that they need to do more than just punch deck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

So they don't cost the same BPs to acquire, either one or the other? Or they don't compete for the same priorities, with either one or the other getting the higher ones and the points coming with them? That's good to know, but are you sure you're using the same chargen rules as everyone else?

In Priorities, it's not a tradeoff. You get X for attributes, Y for skills, etc. How you spend those is up to you, but if you're good at it, you can be solid in any number of categories.

BP is a tradeoff, but as evidenced by a ton of characters in the Dumpshock archive, you can have excellent secondary skill sets.

The term you're looking for is "opportunity costs". You are assuming that the opportunity cost of being the very best is sacrificing everything else. That's not the case, and has never been the case, and I'd like to see you produce some characters proving your point.

Actually, I do, both in my family and among my colleagues. Dunno how you do things that side of the globe, but I haven't encountered frogmen who'd also be trained in paradrops (other than maybe to an equivalent of skill rating 1), nor assault team members trained to be vehicle mechanics, nor anyone other than the comm officer having anywhere near professional skills in Hardware, nor military firmware coders trained to perform sabotage and CQC.

My roommate is an ex communications specialist. He wasn't even close to special ops, but he can handle multiple firearms well beyond basic requirements, can do emergency repairs to a Humvee, knows basic hand to hand, and can handle a field medical pack with ease. And he just went through basic. Every marine I know can do paradrops, operate comm equipment, do emergency repairs on vehicles, can act as a field medic, and is trained in the US Marine force martial art, which includes weapons and unarmed. Every special ops guy I've met or read ab out can do a lot more than that.

Combat is unpredictable. You can't rely on everything going right, such as the samurai handling all the enemies for you. So, smart groups have multiple redundancies, so if the specialist goes down, they can cover. In Shadowrun, if the sammie gets nailed by a spell, everyone else can still fight off the opposition... assuming they were built proficiently.

By the way: I was flipping through SR1, and I was reminded of something. Not only are the deckers there as skilled in firearms as the average security guard, the first ever decker in Shadowrun fiction, Dodger. Dodger was not only competent in a fight (he didn't fight very often in the first trilogy, but he was trained in Carromeleg), but he was such a skilled decker, he could run with Ai's with only his naked persona. So, no, you don't have to sacrifice combat effectiveness to be a great decker, and from the very beginning, you were never supposed to.

[Fatum]

Not really. Considering you need A or B in SR5 to just afford a decent deck, the rest is up to you. If you can manage those resources efficiently, you can get quite a bit for it.

Yeah, we've determined above that everything a hacker needs to spend his money on is his deck, essentially. Because really, what else could he possibly need (now that the system does not even yet have the encephalon).

So, I didn't actually say it, and you don't actually have examples. How about you build a few deckers in SR5, and then demonstrate it?

How about I don't spend my time on a shitty system with whole subsystems unworkable and/or absolutely retarded, its rules contradicting each other, and a large chunk of it built around twisting my hands into cooperating with a game mechanics that still doesn't work?

Wow, look at that goalpost move! Now we're talking *professionals*!

Runners are by definition professionals. Well, or dead.

Of course, professional also means a standard of behavior... which, in Shadowrun, is represented by social skills.

Professional means being competent in the chosen profession and nothing else.
And no, standards of behaviour are represented by player roleplaying, not character social skills.

But now, since you say they're professionals, you're conceding that they need to do more than just punch deck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

They also need to breathe and eat, what an amazing surprise.

In Priorities, it's not a tradeoff.

This is again out there completely. If you spend the skill/stat/whatever points on something, you don't have these points to spend them on something else. It is by its very nature always a tradeoff.

BP is a tradeoff, but as evidenced by a ton of characters in the Dumpshock archive, you can have excellent secondary skill sets.

Out of the chargen you're lucky if your skillset covers the skills essential for your archetype half-decently.

[Fatum]

You are assuming that the opportunity cost of being the very best is sacrificing everything else.

Given that you have half a dozen pools at the very least for every archetype to spend your resources on, yes, naturally, the cost of increasing the non-essential ones is being sub-par in the essential ones.

That's not the case, and has never been the case, and I'd like to see you produce some characters proving your point.

Let me just spend a dozen days (by your own estimations of chargen times) to prove that alternative costs exist.

My roommate is an ex communications specialist. He wasn't even close to special ops, but he can handle multiple firearms well beyond basic requirements, can do emergency repairs to a Humvee, knows basic hand to hand, and can handle a field medical pack with ease. And he just went through basic. Every marine I know can do paradrops, operate comm equipment, do emergency repairs on vehicles, can act as a field medic, and is trained in the US Marine force martial art, which includes weapons and unarmed. Every special ops guy I've met or read ab out can do a lot more than that.

Are "emergency repairs on a Humvee" replacing a blown tire or piecing it together after its motive system has been destroyed by a mine? Similarly, is the mentioned "ability to paradrop" experience in jumps from every common height under any weather, with additional equipment and the rest of the regiment coming down, or stealth drops, etcetera? Cause bandaging a bleeding wound and replacing a wheel with the spare is not having a skill, it's defaulting on the attribute.

Combat is unpredictable. You can't rely on everything going right, such as the samurai handling all the enemies for you. So, smart groups have multiple redundancies, so if the specialist goes down, they can cover. In Shadowrun, if the sammie gets nailed by a spell, everyone else can still fight off the opposition... assuming they were built proficiently.

Ahaha, and if the hacker goes down to IC, is the rest of the team finishing his hack? If the sammie, with his teen-plus-sized dicepools in attack and defense, and three-plus IPs, goes down just like that, what's the hacker doing to the ones who downed him, even if you waste your resources on getting him the second IP and an attack pool somewhere below 10?