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> Canon Revision Project: Combat Mechanics, thread 2, I will lose you if you don't lose me.
Arethusa
post May 7 2004, 06:01 AM
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Canon Revision Project: Combat Mechanics, thread 2
Here we go again.

For those of you who have no idea what this is about, visit the last thread. This is an attempt to rewrite canon to fix the glaringly unrealistic, horribly broken, and enourmously wrong elements in the Shadowrun system. Though I originally had gotten into this simply planning to rewrite the guns to make them internally consistent, it soon turned into a project to fix Shadowrun's incontrovertible mess of broken combat mechanics. This project may go further; certainly, not absolutely everything is wrong with the Shadowrun system, but there are many things beyond combat needing work, from cyberware (eg 0.75 essence radios, cyberlimbs, mnemonic enhancer) to magic to small, miscellaneous rules (eg the difference between physical and visual searches). But, for now, the focus is on rewriting the combat mechanics to something realistic but still playable— and still faithful to the saner elements in canon.

The project's still going, and I'm still working on nailing down the issues that need to be tackled. But, first, to avoid repetition of issues already discussed (and some relatively solved):

Armor, Called Shots, and Hit Locations: I will be subdividing armor into specific bodily locations with separate values for each area. FFBA will no longer give 4 points of ballistic across the whole body with a full suit.

As for specific subdivisions, I haven't nailed down how many or where. Probably something along the lines of Torso/Legs/Arms/Head being +2/+3/+4/+5, though I'm considering +1/+2/+3/+5 or even leaving head at +4. With a comprehensive table of modifiers for vision and combat conditions— and a GM to make use of them— these could really be sufficient to make headshots largely ineffective in combat without being unnecessarily impossible. Each area hit will have its own set of effects for staging and power, and crippling hits to limbs will double the penalty to all actions taken solely with that limb and incur a 1.5x wound modifier penalty to actions involving that limb. No limb hit can do more than Deadly damage (Deadly being effectively hitting an artery or taking off a limb).

On normal attacks, will be using a 2d6 system rolled for each attack to determine where the shot lands, and it'll probably be similar to Raygun's setup. Yes, 3d6 offers more fine tuning, but in the context of this project, elegance is something of a necessity. Still, may change my mind on that.

Armor layering will likely be done per body region, but otherwise kept mechanically identical to canon. Body will be used to calculate how much armor you can wear effectively, not Quickness. Lastly, I'll be changing the mechanics to cause armor to impede movement from the start; you should not be walking around with an absolute minimum of armor at all times unless you decide that the tradeoffs are worth it.

Lastly, overall body armor will be calculated per some simple formula I've yet to devise, and will be used mainly for explosions, getting hit by cars, etc.

Auto Fire: I still have no idea where this is going. At present, the viable suggested systems have largely come down to two: Austere's system of breaking down autofire into bursts and Dashifen's system of hitting with all bullets up to the highest roll. To best honest, I have a number of issues here with pretty much every system I've seen, and how this is going to be handled is very much up in the air in my mind.

Semi Auto and Burst Fire: Basically, treat weapon skill as a pool that refreshes at the beginning of each Simple Action; per Simple Action, go ahead and fire as many shots as you can distribute pool to. Normal combat pool and recoil rules still apply. Credit to Person 404 for working on this with me.

Weapon ROF: Initially, I was opposed to factoring this in past a max number of rounds per 3 second interval, but I've really ended up changing my mind on this one. Weapon ROF in rounds per minute will be (naturally) divided by 20 to get rounds per 3 seconds, and this will then be further divided by the number of combat phases a combatant gets to determine the number of rounds he or she can fire per combat phase. In order to keep things sensible and acceptably streamlined, all of this will be calculated ahead of time and provided as part of the weapon's stats. If you want to run 1.5 or 1 second combat turns, I'm afraid you'll have to divide things further yourself, though that's obviously not very hard.

Weapon Recoil: Weapon recoil will probably be capped at Austere's suggestion of 4 + (3 * Weapon Recoil Modifier). eg assault rifles incur +1 recoil per shot, maxing out recoil at +7; a battle rifle or MMG incurs +2 recoil per shot, maxing out at 10. An HMG would incur +3 per shot, maxing out at 13. Firing on SA removes the base +4. Also, weapon attachments won't all factor straight into RC as per canon. Attachments like vertical foregrips will probably lower max recoil and max aiming actions by 1 or 2; attachments like bipods would lower max recoil and recoil generated per shot, depending on the weapon. All of this is still fairly malleable, however.

Additionally, I'll be using something similar to Raygun's RC by Reaction table, and I'll be using Strength based RC to feed right into recoil caps.

Also, expect GV4 and shock pads and all related silliness to go into the corner and shoot itself.

Ammunition: There will be seven types of ammunition: Light, Medium, and Heavy Pistol, Shotgun, and Light, Medium, and Heavy Rifle. Hell of a lot simpler than gigantic mess of different types. I won't be naming calibers, but for those who really are interested, Light Pistol will perform something in the vicinity of .22LR; Medium Pistol, 9mmP; Heavy Pistol, .357SIG, 10mmAuto, or .45ACP; Shotgun, 3" 12ga.; Light Rifle, 5.56x45mm NATO or 6.8mmSPC; Medium Rifle, 7.62x51mm NATO; Heavy, .50BMG. There will, of course, be guns firing custom ammunition types, but they'll be relatively uncommon.

I'm also curious if anyone would like to see shotguns broken down into Light, Medium, and Heavy variants, analogous to real life's 20, 12, and 10 gauges. All the other ammunition types get it, so I don't really see it being that much of an overcomplication, but I'm curious if anyone really cares one way or the other.

Rifles will get a 0.75 armor modifier, lowered to either 0.25 or 0.5 with AP (haven't decided which). I believe that this is pretty close to what Raygun uses, and it's simple enough to fit into the scope of this project. Hey, I love 3 part damage codes, but not here. I'm not sure where to go with pistol rounds (in terms of AP), at the moment. As for all other ammunition types, expect something realistic and an end to the silliness of flechette ammunition.

CQB and Weapon Handling: <=15m, all pistols receive -1TN; SMGs and carbines are the baseline, receiving +0TN; all full size rifles receive +1TN (I wanted to differentiate between carbines and full size rifles, but +2 is just too much); an LMG would receive +2TN; MMGs would receive +3TN; HMGs and heavy weapons, +4 and beyond. At <=5m, all CQB bonuses and penalties are doubled, and lighting, recoil, and called shot modifiers are halved, rounded up. Alternatively, could change the distances to 10m and 1m, respectively, but I think that may be fairly useless.

Shotguns: Completely ditching variable choke and it's area of effect swath of 2D. Thanks to Austere for the following numbers:
  • -1 TN to hit at Short and Medium range; -2 at Long; -3 at Extreme
  • Laser sights, reflex sights, and Smartlinks all give -1 TN (max of -1).
  • Damage stages down at -2 Power/-1 Damage Level per range category. May consider -1 Power instead; I'm not sure if this makes shotguns too weak.
  • Apply either double Ballistic or double Impact if the target as more than 1 point of either (ie at least 2, barring something completely weird).

Launch/Heavy Weapons: Will be increasing the power of most launch weapons and making most of them antivehicular (with possibly a couple exceptions; after all, the real life RPG-7 is basically an antipersonnel weapon). Also will be adding something along the lines of HIWS (as seen at Blackwater), mostly because it rocks.

Speed in Melee: Will probably be running with either a combination of Lime's system of requiring a simple action to counter attack and my system of Speed Reach or just Speed Reach. Either way, do not discuss this here. There's already a thread. Credit to Person 404 and another guy who's probably not going to post here for some time for putting together Speed Reach with me.

Explosives: Credit to Austere on these suggestions:
  • Blast radius: -2/m
  • Compared against 1x barrier rating
  • Commercial Explosives (eg Semtex, TNT) are rating 6; C4 is rating 7; C12 is rating 10
To some degree, I wonder if these figures are lethal enough (100+ kilos of C4 needed to punch a meter wide hole through a reenforced cement wall), but for now, I'm ok with them. And factoring in each Demolitions success giving +25% Power, they might just be dangerous enough.

Could use some suggestions for rules on shaped charges, though there's the possibility that leaving Demolitions to handle this per successes does it well enough currently, albeit at an abstract level.

As for thermobaric explosives (again, thanks to Austere):
  • Constant damage code blast radius: Rating * (kg/10) ^ 0.5
  • Blast radius beyond this: -2/m
  • Damage code: (Rating * 2)D
  • Cost/Availability: (Rating ^ 2 * 3)¥ / Rating * 2, 7 days
  • Minimum rating 2; maximum rating 6

Also, will have rules for improvised, cheap explosives. Specifically, fertilizer-based explosives at Rating 4 and its purified cousin, ammonium nitrate, at Rating 5. 20¥/kg for the former, 35¥/kg for the latter. Both quite accessible, easily detectible, and, if I can work out simple rules for it, fairly unstable.

Grenades: I'm either going with setting grenades at 15S (minigrenades at 12S) and enforcing the optional staging rules (numbers courtesy of Austere) or going with two separate damage ratings of 10S(f) (-1/m) and 6S (-2/m), one for shrapnel and one for concussion, respectively. Not entirely sure on this one.

Also, Austere: was the 12S meant to reflect the 40mm or 20mm platform? I'm pretty much ditching 20mm and high capacity underbarrel grenade launchers, but I'm not not removing 20mm entirely.

Skills: I'll definitely be rewriting the canon table of skills in order to keep the level of division consistent. No more Sorcery.

Fatigue: Unless there's interest and acceptance for an additional damage track for fatigue (resistable by Body and Willpower, healed with rest)— and do let me know if there is— I'll be going with Austere's system:
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Over Str x 5kg up to Str x 10kg, a character has +1 TN on all Quickness-related tests and Athletics, -1 Quickness for movement speed, -1 run modifier, gains Light Stun every (Body x 20) minutes.

Over Str x 10kg up to Str x 15kg, a character has the above modifers as well as modifiers as from a permanent Light Stun wound while encumbered, cannot run and gains an additional Light Stun every (Body x 5) minutes.

Over Str x 15kg up to Str x 20kg, a character has the above modifiers but a permanent Moderate Stun instead of a Light Stun and gains an additional Light Stun every (Body) minutes.

Over Str x 20kg, a character has the above modifiers but a permanent Serious Stun instead of Moderate and gains an additional Light Stun every (Body x 5) CTs.


And that is most of what's been covered thus far.

This time, I actually have a few specific questions, so here goes:
  • Any suggestions for altering (+3 Power / +1 Damage Level) / 3 rounds fired? This really falls in with any suggestions for altering autofire, which I'm open to.
  • Are there any special weapons that specifically need rewriting? The rocket pistol comes to mind.
  • Any suggestions for alternatives to searching fire's allowance of essentially only one round hitting? Not necessarily crucial; the staging modifications help ameliorate this.
  • Any suggestions for a more realistic alternative to hardened personnel armor?

That's all for now. Please, if you have any comments on the decisions made or suggestions for something not yet mentioned, don't hesitate to speak up. I'd very much like to see some community involvement that doesn't boil down to me and Austere chatting via the board.

Oh, by the way, 1 point to anyone who recognizes the thread subtitle, no Google allowed. Just because.
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Eyeless Blond
post May 7 2004, 06:26 AM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
Armor, Called Shots, and Hit Locations: I will be subdividing armor into specific bodily locations with separate values for each area. FFBA will no longer give 4 points of ballistic across the whole body with a full suit.

I'm not sure I like this idea. Sure, hit locations sound interesting on paper, but I suspect that on application they will only add complexity to the game--with everyone tracking 8 or more seperate armor ratings instead of the current 2--without really adding anything meaningful to the game. If you want Called Shots just have them be a +4 modifier and stage the damage level up by one. If you want other (special) effects, let them just happen as part of the normal shot whenever someone rolls a number X higher than the TN (I suggest something around 8-10); sorta like critical hits in D&D. Doesn't that sound simpler than tracking the armor in N different abstract hit locations?
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Arethusa
post May 7 2004, 06:36 AM
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I have to disagree. It sounds simpler in theory, but when you run into players who don't like not being allowed to aim for specific parts of the body, it becomes a mess. Just look at the massive debates and incessant arguments that have resulted from the called shot and abstract armor rules. Ultimately, armor locations basically ditch this in favor of a much saner setup, and with redesigned character sheets with separate fields for different body parts, it's not really all that bad. Really, there are canon rules that require far more number crunching than just rolling 2d6 on every attack and applying that to a simple chart of effects.
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Austere Emancipa...
post May 7 2004, 06:50 AM
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Re: Ammo, you might want to make that Light, Medium, Heavy and Insane. Or something like that. The jump from the not-particularly-powerful 7.62x51mm to the far-too-powerful-for-just-about-any-application 12.7x99 is rather large. Put something like a .338Lapua or even .375H&H in there somewhere, for the big game rifles and many/most sniper rifles.

No real need for 3 different shotgun calibers. 12G is by far the most common, and people who don't know much about firearms assume all 12Gs are the same anyway.

QUOTE (Arethusa)
100+ kilos of C4 needed to punch a meter wide hole through a reenforced cement wall

A reinforced concrete wall shouldn't be more than Barrier Rating 16, BR 24 refers to close to a meter or more of reinforced concrete. You need double the Barrier Rating to get a 1-m wide hole, so you need ~28.5kg of C-4 if you just want to slap it on a 0.4m/16" thick reinforced concrete wall. That's a bit much, maybe, but not far off considering the fact that most of the blast would be directed somewhere else than against the wall.

Any competent demolisher will get at least 3 successes on the Demo (2) test, which reduces the necessary amount of explosives to 9.3kg. [Edit]Oops, that's with the TNT figures. You'd need even less C-4.[/Edit]

I'm still of the opinion that the abstraction of shaped charges into the Demolitions test is reasonable, considering the amount of abstraction necessary in other areas of the rules.

QUOTE
Also, Austere: was the 12S meant to reflect the 40mm or 20mm platform? I'm pretty much ditching 20mm and high capacity underbarrel grenade launchers, but I'm not not removing 20mm entirely.

40mm. 20mm might be 10S or even 9 or 8S. The lethality of the 20mm grenades for the OICW is currently estimated at Pretty Sucky, but that might change. Since smaller caliber seems to be the trend, you could just assume the guys who design the weapons know better and use 10S for the 20mms.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: May 7 2004, 06:51 AM
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Eyeless Blond
post May 7 2004, 07:37 AM
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To be fair, most of the "Called Shots Suxxorz!!!11" threads are complaining aboout how, after a certain minimum value, most armor is useless precisely *because* of called shots, specifically the ruling in the FAQ that says you can get around armor with a successful called shot. Hit locations and multiple armor ratings won't satisfy them, because called shots still exist, and their armor is just as easily bypassed as it was before. Most of the rest want detailed rules on shooting someone in the eye or throat or trigger finger. These people aren't satisfied either, because the proposed changes are too general. So the vast majority of objections aren't solved by this system, no more than they were before.

And I think you're underestimating how much this will complicate the game. Except for certain bits like FFBA, which by definition cover every part of the body equally (except ironically the most frequently-targeted parts of the body, the head and whatever mysterious part lets you get around all armor when doing a canon Called Shot), most armors will have different armor ratings for every hit location that you care to name. Thus every armor in the game will have to be rewritten with 8 sets of armor stats instead of 2, making them look somewhat like Matrix host stat blocs (a Camo Half-suit might be 4-2/2-1/2-0/1-0, for example). So now armor ratings become as dense to read through as Matrix hosts. This will also make stuff like jackets next to useless now, as they will have good ratings over the arms, fair over the torso, and nothing anywhere else. No doubt people will feel their arms/legs/head are never protected enough, and will beg and plead for more armors specifically designed to protect these areas that will stack well with all the torso armors in the published resources.

Let's also not forget that you're rolling another set of dice for every hit in combat now as well, to figure out where the hit takes place. Then youhave to look up what the roll means in one table, as well as what penalties that particular hit imposes in another. Accruing random penalties will probably be fairly common, since both arms and legs will have their own. This means people will have to keep track of many more odd miscellaneus modifiers, which they're likely to forget about at least once a turn (how many people here forget to add a die from Enhanced Artwinkulation or the Mneumotwink Enhancer every once in a while?)

This is simple?
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Crusher Bob
post May 7 2004, 07:39 AM
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The impression I got of the 20mm grenades is that they would be properly spin stabilized, and thus much more accurate. With 'adequate' fragmentation patterns in a 2-3 meter radius, you should be doing fine. Maybe make the 9S and use 1d6 scatter?
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Austere Emancipa...
post May 7 2004, 07:45 AM
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QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
Maybe make the 9S and use 1d6 scatter?

/me empathically agrees.

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
And I think you're underestimating how much this will complicate the game.

I've done it. I can tell you how much the rewriting of the armor system complicates the game: Fuck-all. The rollind of dice to determine hit location and then checking for anything special relating to the specific hitloc adds about 2 seconds per hit, which is insignificant in most cases.
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Arethusa
post May 7 2004, 08:06 AM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
you might want to make that Light, Medium, Heavy and Insane.

I'll consider it. I'd kind of like to not go into adding another ammunition type, though. Still, there is room for application, and if people don't have any objection and I can come up with a suitable name, I guess I don't mind. Light, Medium, Precision, and Heavy, maybe, just to keep Heavy Machine Guns and Heavy Rifles firing the same stuff.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
A reinforced concrete wall shouldn't be more than Barrier Rating 16, BR 24 refers to close to a meter or more of reinforced concrete. You need double the Barrier Rating to get a 1-m wide hole, so you need ~28.5kg of C-4 if you just want to slap it on a 0.4m/16" thick reinforced concrete wall. That's a bit much, maybe, but not far off considering the fact that most of the blast would be directed somewhere else than against the wall.

Any competent demolisher will get at least 3 successes on the Demo (2) test, which reduces the necessary amount of explosives to 9.3kg. [Edit]Oops, that's with the TNT figures. You'd need even less C-4.

Yeah, seems about fair when you factor in demolitions skill at +25% power. I don't know; may add a point of power to everything just to keep things slightly more dangerous. 30 kilos of C4 is quite a bit.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
I'm still of the opinion that the abstraction of shaped charges into the Demolitions test is reasonable, considering the amount of abstraction necessary in other areas of the rules.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I agree here. Mostly, I'd just like a way to create charges that don't blow all over the place but can still shatter a door. Even something as simple as test to reduce blast radius. Can't vouch for realism, here, though.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
40mm. 20mm might be 10S or even 9 or 8S. The lethality of the 20mm grenades for the OICW is currently estimated at Pretty Sucky, but that might change. Since smaller caliber seems to be the trend, you could just assume the guys who design the weapons know better and use 10S for the 20mms.

Eh. Certainly 20mm's going to get better in 60 years, but I doubt 40mm's going away. It's far more versatile, isn't crippling in terms of weapon size (the XM29 is still just a joke), and in a future of dramatically increased defensive technology (and trolls, who kind of count), I see 40mm as completely defeating 20mm. Of course, that seems to be more thought than was put into the canon guns, but suffice to say that I'll be sticking to the bigger stuff.

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
To be fair, most of the "Called Shots Suxxorz!!!11" threads are complaining aboout how, after a certain minimum value, most armor is useless precisely *because* of called shots, specifically the ruling in the FAQ that says you can get around armor with a successful called shot.

I think you're forgetting the good old days before that ruling hit errata. Regardless, you should be able to bypass armor with a successful shot to the right area. Really, that's just life. If you want armor everywhere, wear armor everywhere. That's all there really is to it.

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
And I think you're underestimating how much this will complicate the game. Except for certain bits like FFBA, which by definition cover every part of the body equally (except ironically the most frequently-targeted parts of the body, the head and whatever mysterious part lets you get around all armor when doing a canon Called Shot), most armors will have different armor ratings for every hit location that you care to name.

Believe me, I'm not. Armor will provide different rating based on location. I'm fine with this. I'm aware that too many locations will overcomplicate things for the sake of sticking closely to canon, which is why I won't go further than probably 6 or 7 total locations. It's not really as complicated as you seem to think. For example, an armored vest provide 5/2 points of armor to the chest. An armored jacket provides 4/2 to the chest and 2/1 to the arms. There's no reason making equipment should be as simple as writing down two numbers and assigning a price.

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
Let's also not forget that you're rolling another set of dice for every hit in combat now as well, to figure out where the hit takes place. Then youhave to look up what the roll means in one table, as well as what penalties that particular hit imposes in another.

It's really not that hard. Fuck that, Austere's system is orders of magnitude more complex than this, as is Raygun's, and lots of people get along just fine with those. Hit locations are not Earth shatteringly difficult. I'm not asking for differentials to be calculated on the fly, here. You're rolling two dice to an easily accessible chart. That's all.

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
This is simple?

Yes.

QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
The impression I got of the 20mm grenades is that they would be properly spin stabilized, and thus much more accurate. With 'adequate' fragmentation patterns in a 2-3 meter radius, you should be doing fine. Maybe make the 9S and use 1d6 scatter?

Precision may be the one thing that sways me on this. I'm not sure. Personally, given the massive drawbacks, I think it's much more sensible to just say that the 40mm platform was rewritten to include proper stabilization. Hell, I'm not even using actual calibers anyway; just using them as a baseline to work around. Worst happens, I can always add in an additional grenade format to fit 20mm's role, though that could be a bit much.
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Eyeless Blond
post May 7 2004, 08:07 AM
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Eh, you're probably right and I'm just being paranoid. But I've still got some reservations about this Hit locations thing. Maybe I'm just being paranoid after reading literally dozens of threads tryint to add something similar to D&D, every one of them either becoming unplayable or not adding anything meaningful, and I'm just fighting the last war.

One question, though: how often to your sammies go for that called shot to the head/arm/eye/other unarmored spot, percentage-wise, in combat?

Everything else here looks really good. I'm especially eager to see what you do with the Skills section; the ball was *really* dropped there IMO.
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Austere Emancipa...
post May 7 2004, 08:12 AM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
Fuck that, Austere's system is orders of magnitude more complex than this, as is Raygun's, and lots of people get along just fine with those.

To be fair, my system is more complex than this only in that I've got separate calibers and all armor modifications have been replaced by the Penetration rating. And I'm the only one using my system. :)
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Arethusa
post May 7 2004, 08:22 AM
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QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
Eh, you're probably right and I'm just being paranoid. But I've still got some reservations about this Hit locations thing. Maybe I'm just being paranoid after reading literally dozens of threads tryint to add something similar to D&D, every one of them either becoming unplayable or not adding anything meaningful, and I'm just fighting the last war.

I think you are. DnD is absolutely not suited for this sort of thing. Given that it doesn't even differentiate between missing and hitting without doing damage— of, for that matter, even clearly define what hitting and doing damage actually is— it's just far too abstracted (and certifiably insane; never forget monks that can break the speed of sound while running) for hit locations to ever work out. But while SR is admittedly fairly abstract, a lot of its mechanics can be reworked to handle a hit location system without and significant hiccups.

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
One question, though: how often to your sammies go for that called shot to the head/arm/eye/other unarmored spot, percentage-wise, in combat?

That's the thing. If the GM plays attention to a solidly organized and potent table of lighting and general combat modifiers (which shoudn't be too hard, if it's done right), almost never. Headshots absolutely should not be combat viable outside of specific applications (melee, sniping, etc). The problem I've run into is balancing between realistically feasible (headshots on the range really aren't that hard) and realistically a very bad decision in combat, as they are in reality. Target number modifiers naturally don't give a lot of room for precision on a d6 system.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
To be fair, my system is more complex than this only in that I've got separate calibers and all armor modifications have been replaced by the Penetration rating. And I'm the only one using my system. :)

Hey, don't forget you're using 3d6 for hit locations, have a lot more hit locations, and in general have a fair bit more complexity. Not that that's bad, but it's decently removed from this. And, hey, you don't know you're the only one, though I guess I must admit that I was referring to Raygun's stuff with that bit.
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Eyeless Blond
post May 7 2004, 08:23 AM
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Heh, just thought I'd add in one last reply before going back into lurker mode:

QUOTE
I think you're forgetting the good old days before that ruling hit errata.


I'm not forgetting anything; I wasnlt even *here* back then. :P Note my joining date: mid-March 2004. About a week before that date a friend of mine showed me this interesting book that I'd never seen before about a game called Shadowrun. I've been hooked ever since. :D

My perspective is definately that of a newbie. I'm looking over Raygun's rules right now (I haven't looked at Austere's site yet, sorry) and I find them paralyxingly daunting. To you guys hit locations look simple and intuitive; to me, the newbie, they look like an awkward attempt at being more realistic without adding really that much realism at all. Who takes the time to aim for the head IRL? Compare that to the number of called-shots-to-the-eyeball you see in canon SR, or will likely see in the proposed +5 called-shot system. But again, this is just a newbie talking, and one who hasn't even held a gun in his life either, so if you guys think differently go right ahead.
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Austere Emancipa...
post May 7 2004, 08:28 AM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
don't forget you're using 3d6 for hit locations, have a lot more hit locations

The locations are named different, but they are no different rules-wise. The extra locations are there only because I needed 3d6 to get the kind of probabilities for different locations that I wanted, and then I needed filler locations because 6 different instanses of "Torso" are repetitive.

QUOTE
in general have a fair bit more complexity

I don't see it. Where do I have a fair bit more complexity? I'm pretty sure I actually have far less rules concerning ranged combat than there are in canon.

QUOTE
And, hey, you don't know you're the only one, though I guess I must admit that I was referring to Raygun's stuff with that bit.

I figured you were, that's why I put the smiley there. ;) Still, if anyone wanted to use my system, they'd probably commented on it. Diesel was working on an adapted version, but I'm guessing he doesn't actually use it to play.
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Austere Emancipa...
post May 7 2004, 10:35 AM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
Light, Medium, Precision, and Heavy, maybe, just to keep Heavy Machine Guns and Heavy Rifles firing the same stuff.

As a matter of principle, I don't think calling 12.7x99 or similar anti-material rifles "Heavy Rifles" is a good idea. They should be in some way set apart from the Light/Medium/Heavy progression of normal rifles. The only living things worthy of being hunted with .50BMG rifles are dragons and juggernauts.

As a curiosity, the site you linked to in the crossbow thread would estimate the penetration through tissue of a .50BMG round nosed solid (800gr @ 2,660fps) at about 150 inches or 3.9 meters, with a (permanent) wound diameter of about 4 inches / 10cm. The calculations don't do sharp ogives very well or yaw/flip at all, however.
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Person 404
post May 7 2004, 11:07 AM
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QUOTE
On normal attacks, will be using a 2d6 system rolled for each attack to determine where the shot lands, and it'll probably be similar to Raygun's setup.  Yes, 3d6 offers more fine tuning, but in the context of this project, elegance is something of a necessity.  Still, may change my mind on that.


I remain skeptical that this won't create huge bogdown. As I am your GM, this is a Bad Thing. Nonetheless, I guess it could work. I await specifics.

QUOTE
Rifles will get a 0.75 armor modifier, lowered to either 0.25 or 0.5 with AP (haven't decided which).


.25 of most armor is pretty much nothing- this turns milspec stuff into a light suit.

QUOTE
CQB and Weapon Handling: <=15m, all pistols receive -1TN; SMGs and carbines are the baseline, receiving +0TN; all full size rifles receive +1TN (I wanted to differentiate between carbines and full size rifles, but +2 is just too much); an LMG would receive +2TN; MMGs would receive +3TN; HMGs and heavy weapons, +4 and beyond.  At <=5m, all CQB bonuses and penalties are doubled, and lighting, recoil, and called shot modifiers are halved, rounded up.


So, pistols get -2 TN at < 5 meters? Who wants to make the akimbo pistols CQB adept? You know you want to.

QUOTE
[*]Damage stages down at -2 Power/-1 Damage Level per range category.  May consider -1 Power instead; I'm not sure if this makes shotguns too weak.


I'd say so... I think the damage level loss is pretty bad enough. I have to assume that both this and

QUOTE
[*]Apply either double Ballistic or double Impact if the target as more than 1 point of either (ie at least 2, barring something completely weird).


Apply to shot only, not slugs.

QUOTE
Skills: I'll definitely be rewriting the canon table of skills in order to keep the level of division consistent.  No more Sorcery.


You know not with what you trifle. Seriously, though, while mages do need some more checking and balancing, I'm not sure skill-splitting is the best solution.


Incidentally, as your GM, I have to say that with these changes (especially powerful grenades and hit randomization), you guys had better be on the fucking ball if you don't want corpsec to process you into a fine paste.
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Arethusa
post May 7 2004, 04:08 PM
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QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
I'm not forgetting anything; I wasnlt even *here* back then. :P Note my joining date: mid-March 2004. About a week before that date a friend of mine showed me this interesting book that I'd never seen before about a game called Shadowrun. I've been hooked ever since. :D

Well, in that case, rest assured that the rule as it is now only breathed new life into a great debate. Used to be that everyone walked around with an armored face and couldn't get shot without armor, regardless of where it was. Didn't really make for great immersion.

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
My perspective is definately that of a newbie. I'm looking over Raygun's rules right now (I haven't looked at Austere's site yet, sorry) and I find them paralyxingly daunting. To you guys hit locations look simple and intuitive; to me, the newbie, they look like an awkward attempt at being more realistic without adding really that much realism at all. Who takes the time to aim for the head IRL?

They can seem daunting, but I wouldn't let it bother you. I will say, however, that they go to a level of realism that is far removed from canon Shadowrun, and are really born of a completely different style from canon. Given how removed they are from SR canon, they're not for everyone. Aside from a general shift towards realism, however, this project is very different. Is it really counter intuitive? I don't think so. Also, keep in mind that the rules aren't finalized and will be cleaned up before being 'published.' With any luck, combat under this won't be any slower at all, and with things like variable choked ripped out, might just be a fair bit faster.

And, like I said, the numbers'll be tweaked to make sure that called shots are, by and large, not a viable option for combat, but still available if someone foolishly decides it's a good idea. Also keep in mind that the numbers apply to someone holding a gun to your head or a sniper aiming for your head from a mile away, and they shouldn't deal with the sheer impossibility a +8 modifier imposes. Even +4 with skill 6 is pretty significant, I've found.

Oh, and Austere doesn't have a site, so don't bother looking. He sucks, and you'll have to content yourself with searching through forums.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
I don't see it. Where do I have a fair bit more complexity? I'm pretty sure I actually have far less rules concerning ranged combat than there are in canon.

Well, that may be. I have started to notice that aside from a few specific instances, this has ended up being more streamlined than canon combat. I'll have to wait for some practical experience before I can judge, really.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
if anyone wanted to use my system, they'd probably commented on it.

Pfah. A lot of them probably aren't really aware of just what it is. Website'd go a long way to helping that. You know you want to. All the cool kids are doing it.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
As a matter of principle, I don't think calling 12.7x99 or similar anti-material rifles "Heavy Rifles" is a good idea. They should be in some way set apart from the Light/Medium/Heavy progression of normal rifles. The only living things worthy of being hunted with .50BMG rifles are dragons and juggernauts.

Unfortunately, there's no sensible way of setting them apart without also being forced to call HMGs something else, which I don't agree with. That aside, I really do see .50BMG as being a fair bit more prevalent in the 2060s than it is now. SR has a lot more big, bad, nasty things that could use a good half inch hole than we have today. In any case, it really is more an issue of semantics than anything else. I just want to avoid confusion with people loading up HMGs with .338Lapua Magnum, or whatever.

QUOTE (Person 404)
I remain skeptical that this won't create huge bogdown. As I am your GM, this is a Bad Thing. Nonetheless, I guess it could work. I await specifics.

Well, me too. At this point, I don't think there's much more to do than run a few hands on tests, but that'll have to wait until I nail down some equipment. Shouldn't be long.

QUOTE (Person 404)
.25 of most armor is pretty much nothing- this turns milspec stuff into a light suit.

It does. I mentioned that mostly because 0.25 showed up in the last thread, but I've since decided on 0.5 with AP, so no worries there. Also, should note that APDS/SLAP/equivalent will not be available on anything smaller than Medium Rifle ammunition.

QUOTE (Person 404)
So, pistols get -2 TN at < 5 meters? Who wants to make the akimbo pistols CQB adept? You know you want to.

Yeah, I was worried about that. This will be offset by My Hatred of Adepts, which gives then +10 on all combat rolls.

Seriously, I am thinking that CQB at <=10m and extreme CQB at <=1m may be the safest route. Hell, maybe 15 and 1m.

QUOTE (Person 404)
I'd say so... I think the damage level loss is pretty bad enough.

Thing is, if -2 Power is too weak at range, -1 doesn't go a long way to fixing this. 7L at Extreme really isn't that great. Ideally, I'd like to make damage progress as 10D/8S/6S/4M (maybe 10D/9S/8S/7M? like I said in the last thread, I'm not really clear on shotgun lethality), but I don't think that's feasible in any elegant way. Shotgun damage is definitely up in the air.

And, yeah, that was specifically for shot. Slugs pretty much behave as you'd expect.

QUOTE (Person 404)
You know not with what you trifle. Seriously, though, while mages do need some more checking and balancing, I'm not sure skill-splitting is the best solution.

I specified Sorcery because it was the first thing that came to mind, but there are definitely other skills that need to be split up or combined. I guess I'm open to other solutions, but as it stands, I see this as the only feasible on short of falling right back to Firearms. And, still, there are tons of other places where you have to combine heavily to keep things consistent. It's not all weapons skills.

QUOTE (Person 404)
Incidentally, as your GM, I have to say that with these changes (especially powerful grenades and hit randomization), you guys had better be on the fucking ball if you don't want corpsec to process you into a fine paste.

Is it, uh, too late to forget this project ever existed? Seriously, we're down to three people. Jordan's completely new and has never played a tabletop RPG before in his life, and Becca's not a hell of a lot better off. I'm pretty damn worried, myself.
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Zazen
post May 7 2004, 04:08 PM
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QUOTE (Person 404)
QUOTE
On normal attacks, will be using a 2d6 system rolled for each attack to determine where the shot lands, and it'll probably be similar to Raygun's setup.  Yes, 3d6 offers more fine tuning, but in the context of this project, elegance is something of a necessity.  Still, may change my mind on that.


I remain skeptical that this won't create huge bogdown. As I am your GM, this is a Bad Thing. Nonetheless, I guess it could work. I await specifics.

Me too. Waiting for the player to find his special right-testicle armor rating every time he takes a hit sounds tiresome.
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Lantzer
post May 7 2004, 04:17 PM
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I tend to avoid such (armor/location) systems because I get really bored, really fast with the guy who figures out that bypassing armor is a good thing, so with his elite skills, comes up with the entertaining and varied tactics of:

"I shoot him in the eye!"
"I shoot him in the eye!"
"I shoot him in the eye!"
"I shoot him in the eye!"
"I shoot him in the eye!", ad inifinitum.

I had to put up with that as another Player in an Earthdawn game. God, I got sick of hearing that. The only time that character _didn't_ "shoot him in the eye" was the one time when the guy coming after us had some sort of magical tracking / death-ray eye. Still don't know why he didn't shoot it then.

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Arethusa
post May 7 2004, 04:17 PM
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QUOTE (Zazen)
Me too. Waiting for the player to find his special right-testicle armor rating every time he takes a hit sounds tiresome.

Seriously, keep in mind that armor ratings really won't be that complex. We're talking Head/Torso/Groin/Right Arm/Left Arm/Right Leg/Left Leg. If it were my system, I'd go further, but there's no need here. And keep in mind that arms and legs will usually have symmetrical armor ratings. Past that, it's as simple as having chart on redesigned character sheets. Shouldn't really be that bad.

[edit]

QUOTE (Lantzer)
"I shoot him in the eye!"

Well, I'm keeping that in mind. If the numbers are set up correctly, though, you'll get this:

"I shoot him in the eye!"
"You miss."
"I shoot him in the eye!"
"You miss."
"I shoot him in the eye!"
"You miss."
"I shoot him!"
"Better."

Bypassing armor's good fun, but actually performing under combat conditions should be a priority, called shots being left for controlled or extreme situations.

This post has been edited by Arethusa: May 7 2004, 04:21 PM
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Caine Hazen
post May 7 2004, 04:22 PM
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Look some people need this type of realisim in their games...they'll find role-master after some time.. :P

I wouldn't use any of this myself, cause I like abstraction, makes things easier on player and GM alike...however, I love hearing A & A's comments cause they give me things to think about to simplify into my own house rules. As to armor right now, I'm thinking of making a list that's FBA/PBA coverage...on PBA coverage called shots do dam with no armor...on a FBA coverage armor gets 1/2 it's value

I'll likely pull a few other things away from all this too before long...keep poundin away guys
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Eyeless Blond
post May 7 2004, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
If the numbers are set up correctly, though, you'll get this:

"I shoot him in the eye!"
"You miss."
"I shoot him in the eye!"
"You miss."
"I shoot him in the eye!"
"You miss."
"I shoot him!"
"Better."

Bypassing armor's good fun, but actually performing under combat conditions should be a priority, called shots being left for controlled or extreme situations.

I'm just waiting for:


"I shoot him in the eye!"
"You miss."
"I shoot him in the eye!"
"You miss."
"I shoot him in the eye!"
"You miss."
"I shoot him!"
"You hit him in...." *rolls 2d6* "...the eye!"
"...I shoot myself!"

:grinbig:
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Zazen
post May 7 2004, 04:37 PM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
Seriously, keep in mind that armor ratings really won't be that complex. We're talking Head/Torso/Groin/Right Arm/Left Arm/Right Leg/Left Leg. If it were my system, I'd go further, but there's no need here. And keep in mind that arms and legs will usually have symmetrical armor ratings. Past that, it's as simple as having chart on redesigned character sheets. Shouldn't really be that bad.

Half of my players are bloody incompetant at finding anything on their sheets. I already wait 10-20 seconds while they look at their sheet as if they were playing "Where's Waldo".

I realize that there are other games that won't see this problem, but mine definitely will.
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Austere Emancipa...
post May 7 2004, 04:39 PM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
Austere [...] sucks

Thanks mate! :D

Seriously, Eyeless Blond, if you're a "newbie" you don't want my rules. If you don't like lots of realism in your ranged combat, you definitely don't want my rules.

QUOTE (Arethusa)
SR has a lot more big, bad, nasty things that could use a good half inch hole than we have today.

Thing is, though, a .50BMG doesn't put a 0.5" hole into living critters. The 4" permanent cavity diameter estimated by the formulas here is pretty much right on. A .50BMG FMJ round will slam right through a large troll's chest, zip through a brick wall, fly 200 meters and smash a pedestrian's head into bits. The troll won't be significantly more dead than he'd be if shot with a .375H&H, but your shoulder sure as hell will be.

A .50BMG round produces insane amounts of power/energy/anything. Like I said, only critters like juggernauts and dragons really warrant that powerful a caliber. .50BMG is overkill against elephants. It's designed to kill low-flying aircraft and lightly armored vehicles, so what'd you expect?

QUOTE (Arethusa)
Shouldn't really be that bad.

And it isn't. I don't have a separate groin armor entry, but figuring out how much armor is in a specific location has never taken longer than figuring out how much armor is worn in general in canon. A stick-figure presentation goes a long way.

QUOTE (Caine Hazen)
Look some people need this type of realisim in their games...they'll find role-master after some time.

Nope. Some of us don't even find GURPS or anything else either. And these rules are still a hell of a long way from ultrarealism.

I did most of my pounding in the last thread. Or, actually, I've done it all before, but there's a lot of it in one place in less rant-ish form.
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Arethusa
post May 7 2004, 04:42 PM
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QUOTE (Zazen)
QUOTE (Arethusa @ May 7 2004, 11:17 AM)
Seriously, keep in mind that armor ratings really won't be that complex.  We're talking Head/Torso/Groin/Right Arm/Left Arm/Right Leg/Left Leg.  If it were my system, I'd go further, but there's no need here.  And keep in mind that arms and legs will usually have symmetrical armor ratings.  Past that, it's as simple as having chart on redesigned character sheets.  Shouldn't really be that bad.

Half of my players are bloody incompetant at finding anything on their sheets. I already wait 10-20 seconds while they look at their sheet as if they were playing "Where's Waldo".

I realize that there are other games that won't see this problem, but mine definitely will.

I'm hoping a large human outline in the upper right hand corner of the character sheets with fields for each of the armor categories will be enough to alleviate this. I don't know. I'm certainly hoping it wouldn't be a huge problem. Though, really, helps as the GM to just have copies of all pertinent information, and that includes character's armor ratings.
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BitBasher
post May 7 2004, 04:49 PM
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QUOTE
Well, I'm keeping that in mind. If the numbers are set up correctly, though, you'll get this:

"I shoot him in the eye!"
"You miss."
"I shoot him in the eye!"
"You miss."
"I shoot him in the eye!"
"You miss."
"I shoot him!"
"Better."
But you won't, unless you outright ban the SLII which effectively gives a -4 TN to called shots. That's an absolutely astounding bonus. That measn if you balance called shots for people using an SL-2 then normal people have no prayer, and if you balance it for normal people then everyone and their red headed cousin gets an SL-2 and never has a single reason to do anything else.

I just think a damage system like this is a bit of a cop out on the part of a GM that doesn't feel like using his brain to give good descriptions of combat, but that's just my opinion.

I also feel that SR needs to be more stramlined, sure as hell not more complicated. I think that taking an inherintly abstract combat system and replacing it with something far more complicated is just a bad idea, but opinions vary.
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