What is it about 3rd Edition? Options

[Jaid]

If you get a bad roll, you get a bad roll. That happens regardless if you soak or dodge.

But, I will admit, my example assumed that soaking would succeed on every die. That's not likely to happen, really-- on six dice vs TN 2, you're likely to get five successes, yes? Three negate the attack in my example, the last two stage it to serious. If your numbers are correct, on an average dodge roll with these givens, you're also looking at a serious.

So, the odds say if you don't completely dodge, you'll end up in about the same place. But if you do completely dodge, you take nothing. So, there's no real risk in going for the dodge.

there are some important differences regarding bad rolls, though.

1) bad rolls happen a lot less often against TN 2 than against TN 4.
2) related to the above, a roll that would be bad against TN 4 can be excellent against TN 2.
3) in your example, you don't need "not a bad roll" for it to be a good idea. you need it to be a *perfect* roll.

if i roll 1, 3, 2, 3, 2, 5, 3... that's a lousy roll against TN 4, but not a bad roll at all against TN 2.

and no, the odds don't say you'll end up in the same place if you don't completely dodge in your example, unless i'm remembering wrong; as i recall, you need two successes to stage the damage in either direction. a dodge with 2 hits means you need 3 successes on your 2 body dice to reduce the damage by one level (there's one level left over to reduce, then two more to reduce damage to serious). even if one success is enough, the soak is *vastly* more likely to avoid deadly damage, and is much more likely to stage down to moderate than the dodge is to reduce damage down to serious.

the only way you can reasonably expect better results from dodging consistently is if your dice are loaded.

there are times where it is better to dodge, and there are times when it is better to soak. anyone following the mantra that they should always dodge is going to be taking a lot more damage than they need to, unless they are cheating.

soaking does not have to reduce damage to 0 to be worthwhile. it merely has to produce better results than dodging could.

[Cain]

and no, the odds don't say you'll end up in the same place if you don't completely dodge in your example, unless i'm remembering wrong; as i recall, you need two successes to stage the damage in either direction. a dodge with 2 hits means you need 3 successes on your 2 body dice to reduce the damage by one level (there's one level left over to reduce, then two more to reduce damage to serious). even if one success is enough, the soak is *vastly* more likely to avoid deadly damage, and is much more likely to stage down to moderate than the dodge is to reduce damage down to serious.

the only way you can reasonably expect better results from dodging consistently is if your dice are loaded.

Not true. Based on your last example (which is part of why they're not working, we're using too many of them-- all of us) you'd score two successes with a dodge roll, on average. Versus 3 successes, that takes you one net, which would likely result in a Serious. Since that's the likely result in your example, they come out about the same.

Edit: Technically, the successes cancel each other out. So, with three successes on the attack, two on the dodge move the attacker to one net. Any remaining soak successes first reduce the attacker's roll, then stage things in the defender's favor. Dodge and soak work basically the same way, with the exception that Dodge has the chance of avoiding the attack entirely versus soak reducing the damage.

Granted, with all the examples floating around, it's getting hard to keep track of them.

I agree that patterns are important, but it is hard to develop said pattern given that the answer as to whether it is better to use CP to Dodge or Soak is based on:

1) Body of the target
2) CP Remaining of the target
3) TN to Dodge (which in itself has to account for wounds, ROF, etc)
4) TN to Soak (which in itself has to account for Power of the attack, Armor Rating, Ammo)
5) Base Damage of Weapon
6) Total number of successes on the Attack Test

That is an awful lot of moving parts, and I would submit to you that there isn't a pattern, simply a series of examples. I would go further to say that you can't say that it is always better to dodge, or always better to soak, but rather you have to look at each of those examples, and make the decision at the time.

I could come up with a bunch of counter-examples (getting hit by a Panther Assault Cannon, for example) but we're already getting all the examples mixed up. Let's try looking at principles.

1) Body of target: unless the body score is super high, troll high, you're better off dodging. That's because soaking requires more dice than dodging to work, especially if your body is low.
2) CP remaining: kind of irrelevant, if an attack is bad enough that you need to spend CP on defense, successes on dodge work just as well as soaking.
3) TN to dodge: This doesn't matter as much as you might think. Sometimes it's worth the gamble.
4) TN to soak: This also doesn't matter as much as you might think, although it can vary.
5) Base damage of weapon: This also doesn't matter as much as you might think. Twelve successes with a light pistol is deadlier than one with a Panther.
6) Total number of successes: This is the big one, although it also isn't that big of a deal. If someone gets tons of successes, you're not likely to dodge or soak it.

What you see is, no one factor works in isolation. Overall, though, dodging is clearly better. Sure, there's random edge cases when it might not be-- how common are trolls, anyway?-- but the rule is to dodge. Since dodge tests come first, if you succeed at a dodge, you're fine. If you don't fully succeed, you can transfer the successes to the soak test. And if you critically fail, well, then you're me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Lobo0705]

Ok - last post on this, and then we can agree to disagree if you still don't see what I'm saying.

Your statement is that it is always preferable to Dodge than to Soak, unless you have a 15 (or some other absurdly high) body.

I give several examples where it is better to soak than dodge (again, not with a super high body) and make the statement that sometimes it is better to soak than dodge.

Your answer is that since you can give some examples where it is better to dodge than soak, that I am incorrect, and it is always better to dodge than soak - even though in my own post I provided such examples, since it is my assertion that sometimes dodge is preferable.

I'll make this as simple as possible:

Body 4, Ballistic 7 (Armor Jacket and FFBA), CP of 8. Attacked by an SMG firing 6 bullets. 13D damage, +2 TN to dodge, getting 1 hit.

Clearly it is the better option to Dodge, since rolling 8 dice needing 6's, I can get 2 hits on a fairly consistent basis, and if I didn't, then that 1 hit transfers over to the soak, and my 4 dice is only going to get me one more hit or so, so it is worth the risk to dodge.

Body 4, Ballistic 7 (Armor Jacket and FFBA), CP of 8. Attacked by a Heavy Pistol, 9M damage, 5 hits.

Here it is clearly better to soak, not dodge. Why? Because while any hits on the Dodge transfer over to the soak, I am only getting hits on a 4+, and since I am very unlikely to get 6 hits on 8 dice, then it is a waste of time to try and do that, when I can simply add the dice over to my 4 body and roll 12 dice needing 2s. If I dodge first, then on average I get 4 hits, and then with my 4 body I get 2 more, meaning that I take damage. If I simply rolled all 12 dice to soak, I can easily get 10 hits, meaning that I negate the 5 hits on the attack test, and then get the requisite 4 more hits to stage the damage down to nothing.

Again - and this is the important bit. I just gave two examples of the same character getting hit with two different weapons - the character is not atypical, the weapons and hits are not atypical, they are not outliers or outlandish examples - and what those two examples show is that sometimes it IS better to Dodge, and SOMETIMES it is better to Soak - which is my assertion.

What it doesn't show is that it is ALWAYS better to Dodge, unless you are a troll with a 15 body (which is your assertion.)

The fact that you can come up with examples where it is better to dodge does not change anything - it supports my position that sometimes it IS better to dodge.

The only way to support your position would be for you to demonstrate that in every single case, barring weird outliers, it is better to dodge than soak - and you just can't do that mathematically, it isn't the way the system works.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What you see is, no one factor works in isolation. Overall, though, dodging is clearly better. Sure, there's random edge cases when it might not be-- how common are trolls, anyway?-- but the rule is to dodge. Since dodge tests come first, if you succeed at a dodge, you're fine. If you don't fully succeed, you can transfer the successes to the soak test. And if you critically fail, well, then you're me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

In SR3? They were pretty common at our table. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And Lobo0705 really does have the right of it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Shev]

Indeed... it was the RARE Physically oriented individual that had more Combat Pool than my Magical Guys did.

Mine tended to be roughly equal. Physical types tended to neglect willpower a little, and magical types didn't always max out quickness, but I never ran into many runners that didn't pump up their intelligence.

[Stahlseele]

Trolls were common in SR3 because they were awesome, if your team otherwise lacked combat power.
Only teams in which everybody could hold their own in a battle reasonably well you would usually not see any.

[Cain]

In SR3? They were pretty common at our table. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And Lobo0705 really does have the right of it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Trolls were my second favorite race. In one game, I played the only troll in a party of humans. They didn't realize how awesome trolls were until I charged a machine gun nest, took a few direct hits, but didn't get hurt at all. Or the time I charged a cybered piasma on crack, and took it down with my bare hands. (The roleplay had my troll a little pissed off, so he became overly aggressive. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) But what I meant was, in game, aren't trolls only 1% of the population? Granted, I probably phrased the question wrong. So, they're pretty rare, as rare as mages.

Anyway, here's the thing: I could counter with a hundred examples of how it's better to dodge. What neither of us can do is show how common our examples really are. We can't prove if his examples aren't random edge cases, or as rare as being a troll. That's why it's still better to dodge: both of us can come up with specific cases, but the more detailed you get, the less applicable the situation is. In the generic, it's better to dodge. In the specifics, it's still a good idea to dodge, except in rare cases.

[Jaid]

yeah, i'm done trying to discuss this with you now. first, you're telling me that the attack being at just under -1 success (regular damage) on average is the same as -2 success average (staged down by one level) (alternately, it's possible you've lost track of the various conversations and forgot that in the given example, the damage was starting at deadly - but if that's the case, then you should be staging down both examples from the same starting point, which still leaves it equally confusing).

now you're saying that since neither you nor lobo can prove something, that must mean that you're right.

you clearly are not using the same kind of logic i am using. if an inability of either side to prove which is more common means that you're somehow magically right, as if your lack of proof is somehow superior to his lack of proof, i call BS.

[binarywraith]

Trolls were common in SR3 because they were awesome, if your team otherwise lacked combat power.
Only teams in which everybody could hold their own in a battle reasonably well you would usually not see any.

Even then, they're still awesome.

What's not to love about eight feet of shit-kicking goodness? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I may be biased, given that I tend to play a lot of Trolls.

[Cain]

yeah, i'm done trying to discuss this with you now. first, you're telling me that the attack being at just under -1 success (regular damage) on average is the same as -2 success average (staged down by one level) (alternately, it's possible you've lost track of the various conversations and forgot that in the given example, the damage was starting at deadly - but if that's the case, then you should be staging down both examples from the same starting point, which still leaves it equally confusing).

Honestly, at this point, I can't keep track of which example people are using. Including my own, I admit.

But: in general, it's better to dodge. It's always better to dodge in the general case. You can argue that certain specific cases, it might be better, but those are probably edge cases at best-- like troll tanks, they're not the everyday runner. Unless you can prove the specific cases are common enough to be significant, the stance that it's always better to dodge stands.

[Grinder]

How's your number crunching smartassery related to the basic idea of this thread?

[melquisedeq]

Honestly, at this point, I can't keep track of which example people are using. Including my own, I admit.

But: in general, it's better to dodge. It's always better to dodge in the general case. You can argue that certain specific cases, it might be better, but those are probably edge cases at best-- like troll tanks, they're not the everyday runner. Unless you can prove the specific cases are common enough to be significant, the stance that it's always better to dodge stands.

Mate, the general consensus seems to be that the burden of proof is on you, not on everyone else who plays Shadowrun globally and easily understands that "sometimes it's better to Dodge, sometimes it isn't"...

Everyone else participating in the debate appears to agree that all the examples given, of why soak is often the sensible option, are not at all borderline and pretty much occur on an "every session" basis.
In everyone else's minds your argument that "dodge is ALWAYS better" sounds a lot like "Panther Cannons are ALWAYS the best weapon", and I'm sure you can easily discern why that affirmation is patently false. And I'm also sure you can understand why someone arguing for it by downplaying every argument that mentions stealth or low resources or even shadows etiquette as "borderline", when these are actually staples of the genre that are more likely present than not, why that someone would come across as stubbornly oblivious to the reality of the game (and even simple math, really, as amply demonstrated).
Now, given your status at DumpShock and the quality of your previous interventions, I refuse to believe this to be a case of ignorance of the reality of a Shadowrun table. So, being really really honest, can you sincerely say that, at this point in the debate, you're not just insisting on turning a simple exercise of logic into a borderline autistic marathon of self-indulgent stubbornness? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
(No offense, please, I just thought it was a funny thing to write).

On the original topic: yeah, trolls are dermal-armored-balls-to-the-wall awesome in SR3!
But I'm actually the douchey type of player who sometimes enjoys playing counter-stereotype, arguably counter-productive Troll Shamans (the sheer presence, unflinching stare, silent type) and Troll Faces (skinny for a troll, with the joker smile, Lennon glasses and received pronounciation). Waiting to testdrive this troll parazoologist/forensic investigator/classic lab nerd I've got on standby. Love it!

[binarywraith]

On the original topic: yeah, trolls are dermal-armored-balls-to-the-wall awesome in SR3!
But I'm actually the douchey type of player who sometimes enjoys playing counter-stereotype, arguably counter-productive Troll Shamans (the sheer presence, unflinching stare, silent type) and Troll Faces (skinny for a troll, with the joker smile, Lennon glasses and received pronounciation). Waiting to testdrive this troll parazoologist/forensic investigator/classic lab nerd I've got on standby. Love it!

My usual troll, Murphy, is a Face. Ex-Mafia, heavy south Boston accent, and charming as hell. Still built like a brick shithouse, though, and one heck of a talented boxer in a tight spot. Titanium bone lacing these days, too. When he hits someone (or their car for that matter), they stay down if they know what's good for 'em.

Haven't played him in forever, though, as he doesn't translate well to 4e. I'll have to try and build him out in 5th.

It's only 'douchey' or counter-productive if you consider it a betrayal of your gaming group to not have the absolutely most twinked-out dice pools humanly possible on every character. This is, to my way of thinking, an absurdist position to take and counter to the primary goal of any RPG, which is for the players to have fun.

[melquisedeq]

It's only 'douchey' or counter-productive if you consider it a betrayal of your gaming group to not have the absolutely most twinked-out dice pools humanly possible on every character. This is, to my way of thinking, an absurdist position to take and counter to the primary goal of any RPG, which is for the players to have fun.

Spot on!

In my group we do have a couple of (very mild) min-maxers, but they know better than to "demand" the same character building guidelines from other players.
The GM doesn't indulge them either, not by skewing the campaign towards their power-level expectations, nor by fixing the spotlight on them every single time their one-trick-pony expertise potentially comes up. You may be the best face there is, but you don't get to reply for the other players when an NPC directs a question at them. And you may be a combat monster, but everyone else still gets to shoot at least once every turn. Or lob grenades! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Grenades truly are idiot-proof.

[Cochise]

Grenades truly are idiot-proof.

Actually I still see them as another flaw within the combat rules of SR3 ... due to the absurd scatter rules.

[binarywraith]

Actually I still see them as another flaw within the combat rules of SR3 ... due to the absurd scatter rules.

I think SR3's are about the best so far. SR5 has made grenades only useful as a way to make people expend their movement. The scatter's a bit wide, I admit.

[Cain]

Mate, the general consensus seems to be that the burden of proof is on you, not on everyone else who plays Shadowrun globally and easily understands that "sometimes it's better to Dodge, sometimes it isn't"...

Everyone else participating in the debate appears to agree that all the examples given, of why soak is often the sensible option, are not at all borderline and pretty much occur on an "every session" basis.
In everyone else's minds your argument that "dodge is ALWAYS better" sounds a lot like "Panther Cannons are ALWAYS the best weapon", and I'm sure you can easily discern why that affirmation is patently false. And I'm also sure you can understand why someone arguing for it by downplaying every argument that mentions stealth or low resources or even shadows etiquette as "borderline", when these are actually staples of the genre that are more likely present than not, why that someone would come across as stubbornly oblivious to the reality of the game (and even simple math, really, as amply demonstrated).
Now, given your status at DumpShock and the quality of your previous interventions, I refuse to believe this to be a case of ignorance of the reality of a Shadowrun table. So, being really really honest, can you sincerely say that, at this point in the debate, you're not just insisting on turning a simple exercise of logic into a borderline autistic marathon of self-indulgent stubbornness? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
(No offense, please, I just thought it was a funny thing to write).

Well, first of all, I am fully autistic. So at worst, this isn't an exercise in stubbornness, it's really how I am. I'm not offended, but I do think you should be careful when you use the word "autistic" as an insult. Yes, i do see everything differently than you, and I don't see any consensus (although I almost never do, it's something that may literally be unable to register in my brain).

That said: I've outlined one condition under which soak is the more sensible option. It's simply that, according to all the evidence I see, conditions under which soaking is better than dodging are few and far between. It's better to always dodge, and watch out for the rare exception, than try and figure a special case to every situation that will probably either end with the same outcome, or slightly favor dodging anyway. If you always dodge first, you'll be able to handle just about every situation that comes your way; and even if there's a rare exception, you'll still likely do fine.

[Cain]

My usual troll, Murphy, is a Face. Ex-Mafia, heavy south Boston accent, and charming as hell. Still built like a brick shithouse, though, and one heck of a talented boxer in a tight spot. Titanium bone lacing these days, too. When he hits someone (or their car for that matter), they stay down if they know what's good for 'em.

Haven't played him in forever, though, as he doesn't translate well to 4e. I'll have to try and build him out in 5th.

It's only 'douchey' or counter-productive if you consider it a betrayal of your gaming group to not have the absolutely most twinked-out dice pools humanly possible on every character. This is, to my way of thinking, an absurdist position to take and counter to the primary goal of any RPG, which is for the players to have fun.

That was one of the fun parts about SR3. While it was harder for a troll to get high social skills, they weren't crippled in that arena, like they are in SR4+. Because there was only a soft link between skills and attributes, a troll with Etiquette 6 was just as effective as an elf with Etiquette 6. A low charisma max didn't hold you back in the same way.

[Stahlseele]

And high Body, STR, Armor and Weapon count actually had set modifiers that helped with things like Intimidation as well.
So in that Department, there was little as scary(quite literally) as a fully armored and armed battleTroll.

Sadly, just after had completed my latest masterwork of SR3 Troll-Design, life went different ways for my group <.<

[Sendaz]

I do miss 3rd Ed Trolls, because you know....


Trolling is half the battle. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[melquisedeq]

Cain: I was unaware of your condition, or I certainly would have never used the term 'autistic' in such light tone.
I meant it as a literal qualifier for that very specific type of stubbornness which, like you yourself put it, can only be displayed by people with an inability to perceive reality as the rest of us do, and thus simply unable to draw the same conclusions from the same raw data. Meaning that I meant 'autistic' as a precise descriptive, not as a generic insult.
Nonetheless, I apologise. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Still on grenades: did I tell you about the Queen Euphoria session when one of my players rolled a 23 on a magical grenade?

(spoiler alert)
The team had just gotten the a visit from Vernon the wageslave carrying half their payslip, and they felt that they had to relocate. They checked into this decent hotel in Tacoma, set up a little surveillance perimeter, and just stood there watching their last babysitting hours tick by.
Later that afternoon, their surveillance efforts pay off as they witness as Pride and his corp-sec entourage deploy into the floor hall at the end of which their room was located. Jimmy Wong the yakuza mage thinks OH SHIT, and projects to astral just in time to manabolt a little spirit into oblivion. A second after, the rest of the team see on the screen that Pride is signalling his men in the direction of the team's door. They run halfway up the corridor, then take a knee and wait. Then the door to the room gets blown to smithereens by a fireball, taking with it their carefully constructed surveillance system and most of the furnishings closer to the door. The runners barely have time to move into defensive positions before thick grenade smoke covers the entrance, and suppressing fire blasts through. It is on, mofos!

Smoke the elf decker had lost the use of his right arm last week, due to a pistol shot right in the spine. Waiting for funds to clear so he could get a cyber-replacement, his arm just hung limply on his side while he lined a revolver on his off-hand, hoping to get lucky on the first guy coming through the door. But after a couple of silent passes, it became apparent that their opposition had a different plan. Smoke the elf decker was entrenched deep inside the bathroom which was deep inside the room, which itself was 90 degrees from the at least 80-meter-long corridor at the far end of which Pride the lion shaman was doing his thing, but not really wanting to give the opposition time to think, our hero decides to throw a grenade at Pride...

...at this point the immersion breaks and I tell the player that it would be physically impossible for that to happen. He tells me that he wants to move up to the bathroom door, from where he can only see the first two meters of the opposing corridor wall. That's 10 meters altogether, so far. He then wants to throw the grenade as hard as he can against said wall, but with effect, so that it bounces off all the way down the corridor. Me: "That's mental!" Him: "Can I at least try?" Me, noticing it's almost 6AM and the session really needs to end soon: "You're looking at a target number of 20, at the very least, and if you fail I'm giving it a very good chance that it scatters back into the room threatening everyone else in your team." Him: *determinedly rolls his Throwing + ALL combat pool. Only one 6. Shit is looking grim. Re-rolls and it's a 6 again. And another 6 after that. And he tops it all off with a 5, for a grand total of 23!

The whole table (myself included) is just standing there mouth agape, as Smoke the recently one-armed elf decker goes "Fuck this gay Earth!" as he throws his Ruger over his shoulder like it's a good luck charm, grabs a frag from his jacket lining, bites the pin off, and awkwardly throws it with his off-hand through the smoke barrier seeping into the room. The fucking thing disappears down the corridor, bouncing from wall to wall at first then later just rolling down increasingly slow, losing momentum with every meter, until it just came to rest at the feet of one of the security mooks to either side of the shaman. BOOM! He pinched the shaman with a Moderate, dropped the first two goons immediately, and clipped one of the second two with a Light. Then Jade the ork razorgal takes the confusion to rush through the smoke and finish off the shaman and another corpsec with a couple lucky SPAS bursts. The other three corpsec get broken and run away. The team lets them. Yay! Even Euphoria is cheering them... because they convinced her that they were a special bodyguard unit commissioned by Carrone to keep her hidden away due to some made up threat, which she ended up believing was Pride and his team.

[Cain]

Cain: I was unaware of your condition, or I certainly would have never used the term 'autistic' in such light tone.
I meant it as a literal qualifier for that very specific type of stubbornness which, like you yourself put it, can only be displayed by people with an inability to perceive reality as the rest of us do, and thus simply unable to draw the same conclusions from the same raw data. Meaning that I meant 'autistic' as a precise descriptive, not as a generic insult.
Nonetheless, I apologise. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

No worries. Like I said, I'm not actually offended. And yes, I do see reality differently, and so I draw different conclusions.

In this case? Everyone else seems to see only the expected value. Which is fine for math class, but in actual play, expected values don't really show up. You can't actually roll 1.33 successes, no matter what the statistics say. That's why expected value is less useful in this case.

What's useful to examine is the outcome, or to put it another way, risk versus reward. What you are risking is combat pool dice, and the reward is damage avoided. TN's and expected values can alter the risk somewhat, but they're not the only factor, or even the biggest factor. What matters is how much dice you need to get the desired outcome, and the risks of failing to reach that outcome. No matter how you cut it, dodging carries less risk for better reward: it takes fewer dice to dodge fully than soak fully, and even if you don't dodge fully, you still have a soak coming. If your dodge fails, you have a second chance. That's not true for a soak, so there's more risk in putting everything into it.

If you look at the outcomes, you'll see what I mean. Frequently, on a soak, even with a good roll (all successes), you won't be able to avoid all the damage. You just won't have the dice to get that many successes, especially if your Body is low. TN doesn't matter so much as being able to get that many successes. On a moderate roll, you're still taking damage, and on a bad roll, you may be down, possibly even bleeding out. On a dodge, on a bad roll, you're just as bad off as a bad soak roll. On a moderate roll, you reduce the damage some, and you still have a soak coming to reduce it further. You'll usually end up about the same. And on a good roll, you take no damage at all. It may be a bigger risk, but it's also a bigger reward, which is what makes it worthwhile.

There are exceptions, but they're rare. Trolls can have so much body, they're likely to soak without spending any combat pool, so they're better off with the soak-- they're not risking any pool dice. Getting hit with a lot more successes than you have combat pool, when combined with a significantly higher dodge TN, might be one as well-- but again, that's decently rare, and you're not likely to avoid that much damage regardless if you soak or dodge. The exceptions are rare enough that you should always think dodge first, and if you mess up and dodge in the rare circumstance that you probably shouldn't, you're likely to come out close anyway.

Still on grenades: did I tell you about the Queen Euphoria session when one of my players rolled a 23 on a magical grenade?

Grenades? Oh, I have a story for you....

I'm GMing again, and the mission is to take out a heavily-secured facility. Now, they're getting paid to cause heavy damage and carnage, so they go in packing heavy, knowing the opposition will be just as well-armed. Since they need to raze the place, they even brought satchel charges; research has revealed the walls are all heavily reinforced, so extras are packed.

Things are rough, but they're still going well, up until this point, when the opposition barricaded a hallway.

Let me skip ahead to the punchline:

Me: (to mage) Let me get this straight. You're in a two-meter wide, ten-meter long hallway. The barricade is about 7 meters in front of you. You're sustaining a Levitate Self and Improved Invisibility spell, you have a moderate Physical and a Serious Stun wound, lighting is bad and you have no vision enhancements, and you want to do what?

Mage: I want to fly over them and throw a grenade. I got a frag left, it'll mess them up.

Me: *pause* Ohhhhkay. You're only dropping it, so I'll go against base TN of 2....(calculates modifiers) Target number 17. You do have Thrown Weapon, don't you?

Mage: Yup. Lessee... I got one die in it

Everyone: *pause*

Me: Are you really sure about this?

Mage: Yup. I'll drop it, and fly right past. I can spare one from my combat pool.

Me: Ohhhhkay.

Mage (rolls): oh.

Sammie: What??

Mage: I rolled all ones.

Sammie: (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) Spend some karma pool, doofus!

Mage: I'm out of Karma pool. I spent it to resist drain.

Me: Well then. (I start pantomiming) You grasp the grenade in your left hand, pull the pin, and throw. An object goes flying. Then you look down at your left hand, and have a second to yelp. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

Surprisingly enough, the mage managed to survive this; the sammie, some distance away, did so as well.

[Cochise]

The scatter's a bit wide, I admit.

It's not just scatter width but scatter directions as well ...

[melquisedeq]

To gracefully drop out of dodge argument, I'll just say that I personally also tend to dodge 99% of the time, except maybe when playing a pure tank, or when heavily wounded. But that is mostly for roleplaying reasons. It breaks immersion to be factoring in all the little details every time a bullets whizzes by, and let's face it, it's a purely mechanical argument to be made. No one, not even a troll, will credibly choose to get shot rather than not, unless he's proving a point or going for intimidation or something like that.

...
Me: Well then. (I start pantomiming) You grasp the grenade in your left hand, pull the pin, and throw. An object goes flying. Then you look down at your left hand, and have a second to yelp. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)
...

That's hysterical! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Oh, how I wish my players fumbled more. They're too cautious, the bastards!
I love high risk/high reward gameplay with high variability both in favour and in detriment of the players. And I appreciate a table that can take this in sport and manage to tie their own character development in with these events of pure whim of the dice. If you get a Deadly and roll poorly on the permanent damage table, and turns out you lose a limb, I see this as a cue for a character to justify the acquisition of cyber, as a possible step in a violent highly-competitive career with low survival rates. So the guy who willingly chopped off his legs to install a steamboat cyber-version of them is now reluctant to indulge in further essence loss so he wants to vat-grow an eye? These vanilla-ass essence-loss-free cloned bits are really just a cop-out, to allow character build to remain hermetically in the hand of the player, impervious to the world itself. Some willingness to compromise our projected character development (and perhaps a tad effectiveness) in order to give back to the shared story being told is, in my opinion, a good thing.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Even then, they're still awesome.

What's not to love about eight feet of shit-kicking goodness? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I may be biased, given that I tend to play a lot of Trolls.

Trolls are indeed...... Awesome. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Converted my 3rd Edition Troll to 4th Edition. He was still Awesome (11'6" and 1200 pounds of Awesome - he was big for his race (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ), but had to be a bit more careful as he could no longer bounce Panther Assault Cannons as effectively. But when all is said and done, he was still Awesome. Eventually retired him to the Shadows of Hong Kong, where he trains martial artists under the tender auspices of Wu Jen's House of Pain.