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> Removal of cyberware!
Topper28
post May 7 2004, 11:46 AM
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Hep!! So I am trying to find something in the core book about removal of Cyberware.

Is it possible to take out a piece of ware and put something better in?

Do a character regain essence if he removes Cyberware?

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Moonwolf
post May 7 2004, 11:53 AM
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It is possible to remove cyberware. Proper rules for this are in M&M. You have the option of leaving an "essence hole" which means you can fill that chunk of essence up with more cyberware, but you never get your essence back by canon.
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Cray74
post May 7 2004, 12:03 PM
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QUOTE (Topper28)
Is it possible to take out a piece of ware and put something better in?


Yes, with the exception of Boosted Reflexes. Except for Boosted Reflexes, any cyberware may be removed.

QUOTE
Do a character regain essence if he removes Cyberware?


No. You never regain Essence after having Cyberware installed.

However, if the removal is performed correctly, you can be left with an "Essence Hole" that can hold new cyberware.

For example: Say your PC was, once upon a time, an "executive assistant" (male secretary) in a megacorp. The character had 900 megapulses of headware memory, 3 essence points worth. The character got fed up with his job (if he wanted to be groped by ugly, overweight, older men, he would've been a gigolo), which involved doing all sorts of dirty deeds for his boss (hiring gigolos for his boss, hiding their bodies, and, worst of all, doing his boss's laundry), and went off to become a Shadowrunner, figuring it couldn't be any harder than what he was doing already. The character has the headware memory removed and gets wired reflexes 2 installed.

Does he get 3 essence points from the headware memory back? No.
Do the wired reflexes cost additional essence? No, they fit into the 3-point Essence Hole left by the headware memory.
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Abstruse
post May 7 2004, 12:13 PM
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That's a very basic explanation of it, but yeah. The way the rules work, though, the essence hole left may be smaller than the essence of the cyberware (using the previous example, the doc could only be able to save 2 points of essence instead of all three). For the detailed rules, check Man and Machine.

There is one "canon" example of someone getting essence back from removing cyberware, but said cyberware was removed from a Troll Bear shaman when his body was taken over by a powerful free spirit and the cyberware kinda sweated out of him. I think this is just another example of a writer of a novel (Nosferatu in this case) wanting to do something the rules plain flat didn't allow, so they made up a way for it to happen.

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Moonwolf
post May 7 2004, 12:18 PM
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Also, Boosted Reflexes can now be removed, as of SOTA 2063. It's in one of the genetech treatments.
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FXcalibur
post May 7 2004, 12:44 PM
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What about bioware or nanoware?
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booklord
post May 7 2004, 01:29 PM
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Depends on the bioware. Some straight organ replacements like the toxin Extractor could be done with a simple transplant of a cloned liver. However some ike Orthoskin or Enhanced Articulation would just get messy.

QUOTE
Yes, with the exception of Boosted Reflexes. Except for Boosted Reflexes, any cyberware may be removed.


In addition to Boosted Reflexes I'd add Bone Lacing and Reaction Enhancers to the list of things that simply would not extract well. In the case of Bone Lacing it would just be messy. On as for Reaction Enhancers they replaced part of your backbone when they put it in. They'd actually need to clone a backbone for you some they replace the reaction Enhancer with a section of bone for the cloned backbone. Another example would be the cyber-skull. You'd have to have a new skull cloned for you and surgically put back on you. That would be hideously expensive.

QUOTE
There is one "canon" example of someone getting essence back from removing cyberware, but said cyberware was removed from a Troll Bear shaman when his body was taken over by a powerful free spirit and the cyberware kinda sweated out of him. I think this is just another example of a writer of a novel (Nosferatu in this case) wanting to do something the rules plain flat didn't allow, so they made up a way for it to happen.


There is also an example of a rigger's eyes growing back in the last Talon book. It was the result of SURGE and did result in essense returning since she regained magical potential.

QUOTE
No. You never regain Essence after having Cyberware installed.

However, if the removal is performed correctly, you can be left with an "Essence Hole" that can hold new cyberware.


The surgical rules in Man + Machine were not recieved well by my players. ( or myself really ) Simply put before that it was ruled that when cyberware was removed you didn't get your essense back. But it did leave an "essense hole" ( though we didn't call it that ) equal in size to the removed cyberware. We wven went even farther than that. We had ruled that essense lost through something like a vampire attack would also count as an "essense hole" you could fill with cyberware. The players took one look at the surgical rules in Man+Machine and said they liked the way we were doing it. ( and why wouldn't they? Man+Machine offers a lot of penalities and complications in its surgical section and few bonuses )
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Moonwolf
post May 7 2004, 02:47 PM
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Bone lacing you remove the way it's put in. By the use of short term industrial nanites.

Bioware can be removed if you can physically see how it would be removed, and also has a "bio-index slot" option, although gods alone know why.

Nanoware doesn't have any built in costs beyond money. If you want to get you cyberware that allows the nanoware to be useful removed, it's just the same as cyber.
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Eyeless Blond
post May 7 2004, 03:10 PM
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QUOTE (booklord)
The players took one look at the surgical rules in Man+Machine and said they liked the way we were doing it. ( and why wouldn't they? Man+Machine offers a lot of penalities and complications in its surgical section and few bonuses )

I hear that. I'm playing a street doc character right now and I gotta tell ya, the rules for surgery make me pale, even with Aptitude:Biotech, an L2 contact to be an assistant, a rating 3 alphaware clinic, and biotech 5/7. I guess the stuff works in those gritty, everything-sucks kind of games, but geez is that harsh to the sams or what? Honestly, installing deltaware has a TN somewhere around 8, even with all the beneficial mods you can possibly fit on it. How the heck do you hit four successes on a TN of 8 with any consistency?
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booklord
post May 7 2004, 03:11 PM
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Since Bone Lacing is likely in a liquified state when the nanities attach it to the bones it would indeed be far more diffcult to remove it. (As its no longer in a liquified state)

Would removal of the item cause serious harm?

Bone Lacing would unless you've got some seriously powerful nanites. Orthoskin would be another one. ( I think the method of implantation is to add patches of orthoskin and allow it to grow and replace the weaker skin. Obviously that won't work in reverse. ) Any area where removal would be far more invasive than implantation. Some items like the cyberskull have replaced large vital parts of your body. And to be honest I have to wonder are some surgeries so invasive you can't go back?
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Cain
post May 7 2004, 05:38 PM
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QUOTE
There is also an example of a rigger's eyes growing back in the last Talon book. It was the result of SURGE and did result in essense returning since she regained magical potential.

While I haven't read that book, are you sure she got essence back? I was under the impression that if you gained Astral Sight from Surge, you only gained Magic of 1, and not any extra essence.

QUOTE
Bone Lacing would unless you've got some seriously powerful nanites. Orthoskin would be another one. ( I think the method of implantation is to add patches of orthoskin and allow it to grow and replace the weaker skin. Obviously that won't work in reverse. ) Any area where removal would be far more invasive than implantation. Some items like the cyberskull have replaced large vital parts of your body. And to be honest I have to wonder are some surgeries so invasive you can't go back?

By canon, no. Only Boosted Reflexes are specifically mentioned; and for good reason, it'd rapidly become incredibly complicated if the canon rules had to specifically list if each and every piece of ware could be removed. But if you want to house rule it, feel free. I don't think anyone would disagree too much. (Personally, I'd allow anything to be removed if the person is willing to get into a genetank, but that's just me.)
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booklord
post May 7 2004, 06:04 PM
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QUOTE
While I haven't read that book, are you sure she got essence back? I was under the impression that if you gained Astral Sight from Surge, you only gained Magic of 1, and not any extra essence.


The rigger was a former magician whose magic had disappeared due to her essense falling too low. When SURGE hit her eyes (which had been replaced) grew back and she regained access to her magical abilities again. (although the only confirmed ability she got back was astral perception. ) Talon promised to train her in magic skills.

That's about it. The pattern fits a sudden rise in magical power caused her to suddenly regenerate a cybernetically enhanced body part and after rejecting said body part regaining some of the magical power she had lost.

Of course one could also say she that she had two surge effects, One regenerated her eyes. The other gave her astral sight and 1 point of magic.


As for the removal of cyberware and bioware. I think given enough time and money you could remove almost any piece of cyberware. No house rule is needed. But GMs can realize through common sense that some ware is lot more difficult to remove than others.
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Dax
post May 7 2004, 06:10 PM
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In cannon, no, there is no way to get Essence back even when you remove cyberware.

However, Blackjack did come up with an interesting house rule take on the matter. I belive it stil covered in his BlackJack's Corner articles over at the SR archive.

But when you come down to it, its really up to the DM on how he wants to tinker around with that rule. Personally, I wouldn't let characters get essence back from cyberware unless you know the players well enough that you know they won't abuse your generosity.
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Moon-Hawk
post May 7 2004, 06:23 PM
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I've always let players get essense back. Not for free, of course! I've always gone with the rule that, if the offending cyberware (or whatever caused the loss) is no longer a factor, the "essense hole" can be filled with essense by spending 1 point of good karma to recover every 0.1 point of essense, or part thereof. It makes minor essense recovery fairly easy, but would still require lots of campaigning to redeem a street sam. I've never had any problems with anyone abusing this rule, as few characters change their mind about cyberware anyway, and no one wants to "waste" 50 karma on deciding that wired 3 was a bad idea after all.
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Apathy
post May 7 2004, 06:44 PM
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QUOTE
There is one "canon" example of someone getting essence back from removing cyberware


Doesn't it work this way for pretty much all the regenerating creatures? Shapeshifters, Vampires, etc all reject the cyber (unclear exactly how), and are treated as if they have full essence afterward?

So, I guess the way to get back your essence is to become a vamp, though then you've got even bigger problems.
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booklord
post May 7 2004, 07:16 PM
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When is the Shadowrun Target : Mad Scientists sourcebook coming out. We want to perform experiments on imprisoned meta-types so we can figure these things out!

My view?

Bioware is a big no for shapeshifters.
Cyberware is a yes but that ends their transformations.
No shapeshifter would "willingly" have cyberware put in their body.

Vampires....It has never come up.
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Moonwolf
post May 7 2004, 07:30 PM
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I would go the other way for 'ware and 'shifters, but all the Bioware would have to be a level beyond cultured, and since 'shifters are broke it's not really an issue.

Vamps have the problem that they are dead, so bio wouldn't work, and their essence shoots up and down, and they regen, both of which provide problems with fitting the crome.
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Cain
post May 7 2004, 08:32 PM
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QUOTE
Doesn't it work this way for pretty much all the regenerating creatures? Shapeshifters, Vampires, etc all reject the cyber (unclear exactly how), and are treated as if they have full essence afterward?

Dunno about Vampires, but they're a different case anyways. As for shifters, while it says they can't have cyber, it doesn't say anything about the attempt not costing them essence. I've never had a shifter character try, so it's never come up.
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