A couple of North America map questions, The border does what? Options

[Beta]

I have some questions about some oddities in the Shadowrun map of North America, that shadow wiki was not able to help me with. I’m hoping that the collective memories and wisdom of the forums here might either pull up some known information, or be able to provide some fun speculation.

Background: My game has been heading cross-country from Seattle in recent sessions, having finally made it through some NAN states to arrive in Winnipeg (in mid-winter….so they really don’t want to linger). . They are heading to Boston, but they are trying to avoid the most ‘natural’ routes to avoid the people who may or may not still be hunting them. So last night I pulled out my old SR2 book and spread out the decent map of North America therein. Looking at possible routes and hazards, we noted a couple of oddities. I followed up with some other on-line maps, and they seem to show up consistently.

Oddities, of course, are often great jumping off points for stories.

One: The UCAS/MAC border takes a dip south, to put Thunder Bay in Algonquian-Manitou Council (AMC). Thunder Bay is, in the here-and-now, a fairly major Canadian port on Lake Superior, which ships a lot of the grain from the prairies. I suppose that the obvious reason for it ending up in AMC hands is that they really wanted a port that was not iced up for as much of the year as Churchill is, and bargained hard for it (maybe they gave up some extra prairie land in return).

But I wonder if there are any other reasons/stories/rumours about it?

Also, because there is a fairly major highway running along the north shore of Lake Superior, that means all traffic taking that route has to go in then back out of AMC territory at Thunder Bay. To me this just screams opportunities for smuggling, scams, and the likes. Any existing material or ideas on how to create an episode or two around this would be welcome (although the group may take a south shore route just to avoid the border crossing, given two fake identities and someone who is lying low for safety reasons)

Two: Go look at the UCAS/Quebec border. For the most part it just follows the current borders between the province of Quebec and the provinces and states that touch it pre-SR era. Now follow it as it swings up to the north and west. It starts much like the border we see in RW maps between Quebec and Ontario. Towards the northernmost extension of the UCAS, however, the UCAS border pulls slightly away from the Quebec border, leaving a very slender finger of the AMC extending down between the two for maybe a couple of hundred kilometres.

I’ve not carefully enough compared the SR maps to RW ones to figure out exactly where that may be. Possibly around Lake Timiskaming (or Témiscamingue if you prefer), but I’m not quite sure.

Anyone have any idea what the reason for this is? In the RW this is not exactly highly populated territory, although if my reading of the map is off, it could possibly include the copper mining area around Rouen-Noranda (or Rouyn-Noranda if you prefer)? But it would be a lot more story-interesting if it was because of a dragon lair, free spirit claimed territory, ritual site of great potency, or the like.

Again, anyone know anything about this odds spit of AMC territory? Failing knowledge, have any fun speculations?

[Tecumseh]

Thunder Bay is explicitly mentioned in one of the setting books. I'm going to guess Shadows of North America because I reread it recently and recall Thunder Bay being mentioned, but I suppose I could be remembering a reference from Native American Nations, Volume 2. You have the basic idea right: AMC was desperate for a year-round port on Lake Superior. I don't remember if there was additional backstory around how they got it. I'm away from my books right now so I can't double-check.

As for the other slip of land - the sliver of AMC between Québec and the UCAS - I'm going to guess that follows Highway 11 and reaches down to North Bay. Lake Nipissing seems too shallow to be useful for shipping (average depth: 4.5 meters) but North Bay is at the junction of Highways 11 and 17 which would make it a major transportation center.

Here's a blurb from the Sixth World Almanac that you may find relevant and useful:

• Hey, you all forgot the best part of the AMC. The country’s like an open sieve.
The military mans the major border crossings, and not much else. Towns are
small and easy to avoid. Thunder Bay has one of the best smuggler’s ports on
the Great Lakes, and almost no one to manage it. I think the only legitimate
shipments that go out of that port are heavily guarded Azzie ships; and the Big
A doesn’t care what else goes through there, as long as you leave them alone.
It’s a smuggler’s paradise, I tell you.
• 2XL

[Beta]

Thanks! Looking at google maps a bit, it is just about possible that the border is supposed to follow
- From Mattawa (on the Ottawa river) to North Bay, along highway 17.
- From North Bay all across Northern Ontario to Thunder Bay along highway 11
- From Thunder Bay out to near Winnipeg along highway 17 (going a bit north to include most of Winnipeg in the UCAS, according to the map….although in my game north Winnipeg, which in actuality has one of the highest native north American populations of any urban area in north America, is AMC territory, with a road connection to the main AMC lands)

Having a highway be the border seems a bit odd, but given the terrain....I guess it makes as much sense as anything. The highway is probably in AMC territory, just, to give them a link across their lands.

[Megu]

Thanks! Looking at google maps a bit, it is just about possible that the border is supposed to follow
- From Mattawa (on the Ottawa river) to North Bay, along highway 17.
- From North Bay all across Northern Ontario to Thunder Bay along highway 11
- From Thunder Bay out to near Winnipeg along highway 17 (going a bit north to include most of Winnipeg in the UCAS, according to the map….although in my game north Winnipeg, which in actuality has one of the highest native north American populations of any urban area in north America, is AMC territory, with a road connection to the main AMC lands)

Having a highway be the border seems a bit odd, but given the terrain....I guess it makes as much sense as anything. The highway is probably in AMC territory, just, to give them a link across their lands.

The way I rationalized Winnipeg being UCAS in my game (set in MSP so it's close enough to be relevant) is that I envisioned it as sort of the Hue of the Ghost Dance War; they destroyed the city in order to save it. The NAN's strength was not urban fighting, so I imagine the US and Canadian armies took it back, but leveled it in the process. The Natives elected to take Thunder Bay instead as much because it was intact as anything, and because the UCAS couldn't bear to give it away after taking it at such cost. The people who rebuilt essentially hate Natives more than anybody, and there's still unexploded ordnance maiming kids now and again, localized background counts, probably a Z-zone of buildings that simply never got cleared and rebuilt.

[hermit]

But I wonder if there are any other reasons/stories/rumours about it?

Shadows of North Amrerica covers Thunder Bay to some extent. It's, basically, a trade port with a lot of semi-officially tolerated smuggling.

Also, because there is a fairly major highway running along the north shore of Lake Superior, that means all traffic taking that route has to go in then back out of AMC territory at Thunder Bay.

I'd expect that to be a toll road, where transit traffic is waved through - probably given a Mark that alerts cops as soon as the vehicle leaves the highway on AMC turf, to prevent unwanted Americans strolling off the highway and bothering the locals (rest stops and licensed restaursants, gas stations and motels might be exempted from that rule).

Shadowrun's North American borders tend to follow highways for some reason.

Any existing material or ideas on how to create an episode or two around this would be welcome (although the group may take a south shore route just to avoid the border crossing, given two fake identities and someone who is lying low for safety reasons)

Well, Target: Smuggler Havens (an old setting book) details North American smuggling routes. I think there was a Northern route through Thunder Bay and along ormer Sozth Canada, but it's been a while since I read that.

Anyone have any idea what the reason for this is?

I'd just call it contested territory. This was left or future negotiations, I suppose. You'd be amazed how often this happens in reality. Ethiopia and Eritrea fought a bloody, tooth-and-nail attrition war for some years over such an issue, and a similar issue has prevents any peace between Israel and Syria.

In the RW this is not exactly highly populated territory

There is highly populated territory in North America? Where?

[Beta]

There is highly populated territory in North America? Where?

Well, let's put it this way..... if you are from much of Europe or southern or eastern asia, you would say that. If you were American, you might make a similar quip about Canada. If you are Canadian, you might say that about northern Ontario....