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> Mechanical locks, or "How I plan to screw with my players"
nylanfs
post Nov 11 2014, 04:51 PM
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Lock #1 (for secure locations inside less secure facilities)

http://gizmodo.com/this-bizarre-high-secur...dium=socialflow

Lock #2 (for super secure facilities)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ey2SFHbZV8
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Stahlseele
post Nov 11 2014, 04:55 PM
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The Master Key will open it anyway.
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nylanfs
post Nov 11 2014, 05:00 PM
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Well yes, but I am going to REALLY enjoy the looks on their faces the frst time they have to do with with a "no traces" requirement to the run.
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Stahlseele
post Nov 11 2014, 05:03 PM
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Have the mage cast animate on it.
"Yo, lock, open for me please"
*Sure thing brotha, i'm open for all sorts of shenanigans!*

And because the animate spell is basically never taken because it's mostly useless:

Have a spirit inhabit the lock and do it that way
"Phenomical cosmic powers!"
*itty bitty tiny living space*
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nezumi
post Nov 12 2014, 02:53 PM
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The first lock doesn't seem so impressive. In fact, by virtue of having the cylinders exposed like that, it makes it a little easier. The time cost is just because of how many pins there are to pick. It's effectively a key with 23 notches (except ... not ... because 17 of those don't need to be picked at all). In actual use, I imagine it'll be even easier. People try to put the key in, they'll rarely hit it dead on the first try. That means you can expect surface scratches and wear around valid key holes, and not around the rest.

It would defy bump keys/lockpick guns/etc. so that's a plus when defending against people with all the tools and none of the skills.

(You would need some sort of tool to apply torque though. Not sure the best way to do that.)

The second one ... I've seen pictures of that before. Like the guy said, standard picks won't work very well. I don't have a quick answer on how to do that, although I imagine someone in Shadowrun can figure out something. On the flip side, the wavey shape means when the cylinder rotates, the shear line is effectively unequal. This means if you CAN reach the pins, it should be much easier to pick than even standard locks. Plus, no sidebars, so there's that.

Both of them just rely on no one having the right tools on hand for the job, which is a fun challenge for the job. But should the tools be found, the picking itself I don't expect to be so intense.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Nov 12 2014, 03:23 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 11 2014, 10:03 AM) *
Have the mage cast animate on it.
"Yo, lock, open for me please"
*Sure thing brotha, i'm open for all sorts of shenanigans!*

And because the animate spell is basically never taken because it's mostly useless:

Have a spirit inhabit the lock and do it that way
"Phenomical cosmic powers!"
*itty bitty tiny living space*


My Occult Investigator had it. Very Useful Spell...
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binarywraith
post Nov 13 2014, 02:45 AM
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I'd be more worried about Troll With Sledgehammer types of brute force lockpicking.

Any sufficiently complicated lock simply means that people will come in through another method. Venitlation systems. Blowing a hole in the wall. Taking a concrete saw to the door around the lock... or the wall five feet to the left of the door.

Locks don't keep out the determined criminal, they just keep honest people honest.
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Sengir
post Nov 13 2014, 11:38 AM
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QUOTE (nezumi @ Nov 12 2014, 03:53 PM) *
(You would need some sort of tool to apply torque though. Not sure the best way to do that.)

Actually usable nanotech: Shear-resistant superglue which allows you to just glue a handle to the center
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Stahlseele
post Nov 13 2014, 12:12 PM
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@binarywraith
The Master Key as mentioned above.
But the caveat was no traces left, so violence, the ultimate tool, is straight out sadly <.<
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KarmaInferno
post Nov 14 2014, 05:00 AM
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Drill out lock, replace with identical lock.

Requires some planning ahead, of course. If you switch the security guards keys as well nobody may even notice the swap.


-k
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Jaid
post Nov 14 2014, 05:20 AM
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if you can replace the lock with an identical one, wouldn't that make it a lot easier to just make a copy of the key? i mean, how are you going to copy the lock that wouldn't let you just make a key... and once you have a key, it's a lot easier to just use the key than to replace the lock...
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binarywraith
post Nov 14 2014, 09:54 AM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 13 2014, 06:12 AM) *
@binarywraith
The Master Key as mentioned above.
But the caveat was no traces left, so violence, the ultimate tool, is straight out sadly <.<


Oh, violence is still useful, you just need to know where to apply it. To someone who has access already, for example, or to their family.

There's always leverage, sometimes you just have to be creative about how you apply it.
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Umidori
post Nov 14 2014, 01:23 PM
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Magic is the counter to this sort of thing, particularly the mind control variety.

That said, good old fashioned blackmail, bribery, and other leverage still works too. The weakest portion of any security system is always the human element.

~Umi
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nylanfs
post Nov 14 2014, 05:00 PM
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Yes, but I plan on leaving plenty of clues when I throw it at them that there's something finicky about the security setup at x location. Assuming they do due diligence during the legwork.
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Neraph
post Nov 14 2014, 05:38 PM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Nov 12 2014, 08:45 PM) *
I'd be more worried about Troll With Sledgehammer types of brute force lockpicking.

Any sufficiently complicated lock simply means that people will come in through another method. Venitlation systems. Blowing a hole in the wall. Taking a concrete saw to the door around the lock... or the wall five feet to the left of the door.

Locks don't keep out the determined criminal, they just keep honest people honest.

Via a 3.5 D&D game: "... Are the walls Arcane Locked?"

No, they weren't.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Nov 14 2014, 05:45 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 14 2014, 10:38 AM) *
Via a 3.5 D&D game: "... Are the walls Arcane Locked?"

No, they weren't.


Indeed... Good Times. Trolls can be awesome. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Modular Man
post Nov 14 2014, 06:19 PM
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QUOTE (Michael Westen)
Every decent punk has a bulletproof door. But people forget walls are just plaster.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Also, if you do it just right and patch the hole back up, people may not notice. See, who'd be crazy enough to come through the walls silently? Most guards won't even look.

Those locks look like a piece of work. Exspect some creative and/or destructive plans from the players (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Stahlseele
post Nov 14 2014, 06:33 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Nov 14 2014, 06:45 PM) *
Indeed... Good Times. Trolls can be awesome. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Leaving no traces of it having been stolen is pretty damn easy . .
"Let's see, i need 100 Kilo of C8 . . and a remote controlled vehicle to make it go boom in there . ."
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Smash
post Nov 16 2014, 08:55 PM
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I'm clearly missing something here. Why is the application of the 'locksmith' skill not going to work in these cases? Does the group not have it?
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War Wrecker
post Nov 16 2014, 09:34 PM
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The way the locks are designed makes them virtually impossible (or at least in the case of the second one) to pick with conventional lock picking techniques.

The way you normally pick a lock is by using a bunch of bits of metal to press the lock mechanisms out of the way like the teeth of a key, and then you have another piece of metal to twist the lock to open the door, like the base of the key.

The first lock isn't opened by a key with "teeth", instead being opening by a bunch of pegs, and has several "fake" holes making lock picking it not quite impossible, just infinitesimally more time consuming (as the number of "holes" needed cannot be derived, so theoretically all combinations need to be tried) than picking a regular lock, as well as needing completely different tools to pick.

The second lock is opened by a key with teeth, but the shape of the lock is very exact, and every piece of lock picking equipment you used would have to have the same "zipper" structure to thread through the S bend without getting stuck in the lock.
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Ixal
post Nov 16 2014, 11:53 PM
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QUOTE (War Wrecker @ Nov 16 2014, 10:34 PM) *
The way the locks are designed makes them virtually impossible (or at least in the case of the second one) to pick with conventional lock picking techniques.

The way you normally pick a lock is by using a bunch of bits of metal to press the lock mechanisms out of the way like the teeth of a key, and then you have another piece of metal to twist the lock to open the door, like the base of the key.

The first lock isn't opened by a key with "teeth", instead being opening by a bunch of pegs, and has several "fake" holes making lock picking it not quite impossible, just infinitesimally more time consuming (as the number of "holes" needed cannot be derived, so theoretically all combinations need to be tried) than picking a regular lock, as well as needing completely different tools to pick.

The second lock is opened by a key with teeth, but the shape of the lock is very exact, and every piece of lock picking equipment you used would have to have the same "zipper" structure to thread through the S bend without getting stuck in the lock.


I doubt there are that many people left in SR who specialize in physical lockpicking tools and are good enough to come up with lockpicks for those things (unless everyone starts using them). The few that exist will likely ask for premium payment. Its more likely that the runners will resort to a more unconventional or messy way to get past the lock, ranging from magic, over destroying the lock with fire or acid to leaving the lock alone and smashing through the door. And that only if they can't find a other way in.

And the other downside of physical locks are that the key is also physical and can be "liberated" by the runners or copied. The lock might be offline, but the database of the company which made the lock likely is not.
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War Wrecker
post Nov 17 2014, 01:52 AM
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Oh yeah of course, nobody is going to bother trying to lock pick these. They'll look at them for 3 seconds, go "I've never seen this lock before and I'm pretty sure I can't pick it", check if it's alarmed, and then take the violent option. Or alternatively try to pick it, fail miserably, and then go with the violent option.
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Stahlseele
post Nov 17 2014, 02:05 AM
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@Ixal
That is actually quite the smart idea . .
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Smash
post Nov 17 2014, 03:59 AM
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QUOTE (War Wrecker @ Nov 17 2014, 08:34 AM) *
The way the locks are designed makes them virtually impossible (or at least in the case of the second one) to pick with conventional lock picking techniques.

The way you normally pick a lock is by using a bunch of bits of metal to press the lock mechanisms out of the way like the teeth of a key, and then you have another piece of metal to twist the lock to open the door, like the base of the key.

The first lock isn't opened by a key with "teeth", instead being opening by a bunch of pegs, and has several "fake" holes making lock picking it not quite impossible, just infinitesimally more time consuming (as the number of "holes" needed cannot be derived, so theoretically all combinations need to be tried) than picking a regular lock, as well as needing completely different tools to pick.

The second lock is opened by a key with teeth, but the shape of the lock is very exact, and every piece of lock picking equipment you used would have to have the same "zipper" structure to thread through the S bend without getting stuck in the lock.


So this is another application of GMs not being able to suspend disbelief?

Good grief, I'm glad I don't play in one of those games. Seriously, if I rolled 5+ successes on a locksmith check with my trusty lockpick set and the GM pulled out the 'Oh, you can't pick this kind of lock' on me, then I'd probably walk on that game.

Why would anyone even want to do that? I'm throwing that one squarely on the pile of 'Everything is meant to be wireless but it's not because.....fuch you deckers!' and leaving it alone from this point onwards.
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Umidori
post Nov 17 2014, 04:32 AM
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In theory, and specifically on the point of the type of lock in question, I don't entirely agree, as there are reasonable limits to skills and what they cover.

Having the Pistols skill doesn't let you shoot exotic and nonstandard pistols like Laser Pistols, for example. Should the Lockpicking skill let you pick exotic and nonstandard locks?

That said, I can definitely find fault with the GM for the contrived nature of this planned encounter. Realistically, with non-electronic locks already being a rarity in the setting, completely exotic lock designs like these would be so amazingly rare as to be unbelievable that one of them would still be in active use - let alone two of them, of two entirely different designs, both in the same location.

Add on top of that the "coincidental" mission requirement to leave no trace purely to make the fact that this is an exotic kind of lock even matter and you've basically shot suspension of disbelief for the plausibility of the mission full of holes - you might as well have your runners stumble onto Dunkelzahn and JetBlack having drinks on the other side of these doors.

~Umi
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