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> SR3 - Help build out a concept, PhysAd does what now?
Mach_Ten
post Nov 18 2014, 02:47 PM
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Hi,

So about a year ago, nearly to the day I got Fragged by a particularly nasty form of Black IC (Unique identifier r34L Lyf3).

it's been quiet in my padded cell, the troll in the corner is mostly peaceful and I save a bit of soy-paste to placate it every so often.

and then some idiot opened the door with the words "Let's get a Shadow Run 3rd game on!"

Mouth engaged before brain, to respond in the affirmative Chummer!

and I'm suddenly embroiled in char creation again... now my brain hurts.

I guess there's a point I should get to, I'm in over my head,
and last time that happened a Dwarf Rigger was born that had no right to live with mediocre skills and zero understanding of the world he lived in.

Now, I'm going to simplify things for myself, I'm going to write up a concept here and ask for your help in fleshing out some skills, powers and wares that I should take

***NOTA BENE*** this is not an exercise in munchkinry,
but I would like to be on a level playing field with the other team members who can be best described as Psycho murder hobos on acid!

So here goes :

Silas is an ork street kid with a keen interest in 20th century comic book heros,
in fact he's memorized all the ones he can get and has taken to enacting scenes from TMNT with his buds.

the last one got him in deep trouble as he interrupted a "Run" in progress leading to the team to bungle the op and barely escape, taking Silas with them as hostage.

This was officially the most awesome day in his life thus far and he now craves more of that action.

so I have so far chosen
A: Attribs
B: Magic (Adept)
C: Resources
D: Race
E: Skills

Skills as E as there is a further 60 Karma to spend on bringing him up to par. .. but I can be convinced to swap around

I have spent 4 magic points on powers and sacrified 2 points of essence in ware and Bio.
Suprathyroid and muscle replacement I think + Data jack & Smartlink2

Powers are improved reflexes
Counter strike
Flare comp
Blind fight
Thermo vision

Skills are mostly in true turtle style
some stealth,
mostly unarmed with pistols as a backup
sword

Breaking and entering skills (electronics and B/R car)

Gear is very basic due to funds and his beginnings as a street punk.

_____________

So, what would work better do you think ?




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Stahlseele
post Nov 18 2014, 04:11 PM
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1.)
How set are you on Ork instead of Dorf?
Dorf starts with Thermo-Vision so potential to save on Magic there already.
Couple that with the edge that gives natural low light, then have one single cyber-eye with eye-light and you will never ever need to spend magic on blind fighting and microscopic vision for improved TNs in lockpicking and technical skills.

Plastic Bone-Lace would be a nice to have thing for a brawler kind of character.
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Mach_Ten
post Nov 18 2014, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 18 2014, 04:11 PM) *
1.)
How set are you on Ork instead of Dorf?
Dorf starts with Thermo-Vision so potential to save on Magic there already.

Pretty set, the rigger was a dwarf and my cleric is always a dwarf... I'm going up in the trog world, at least height wise

again, not looking to min/max the powers otherwise it'd be full of killing hands etc.

more of advice on what areas to avoid .. or not forget about, whats a good armour combo (assume 7 quickness and good body scores)

tips n tricks ... or if you have an archetype that's worth looking at to crib from ?

input appreciated

**Edit** to add, good to see you still around Stahl
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Stahlseele
post Nov 18 2014, 04:19 PM
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Formfitting Body Armour and Camo-Full-Suit < = best combination probably.
Maybe the Arsenal Armor for couriers, the Coverall.
Remember, body does not factor into how much armor you can have in SR3.
That was only introduced as of SR4.
The only limiter you have on armor is the only highest counts full,s econd highest only 50% and then problems with combat pool and dodge TN and the such.
If you go for high Quick, Whips might be a usefull skill to have.
Otherwise Thrown and definitely Club as Weapon-Skill. Everything you can pick up can be used as one or both of these.
You can usually smuggle one or two of these around, if you use it as a Belt and simply chains on leatherjacket for example.

Instead of Pistols maybe Shotguns? More reach, can be used as a club too. And more Damage if needed be as well.

As an Adept, you need to REALLY focus at the start of the game and the broaden your horizons usually, because you are very strapped for points.
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Cochise
post Nov 18 2014, 05:59 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele)
The only limiter you have on armor is the only highest counts full,s econd highest only 50% and then problems with combat pool and dodge TN and the such.


The limitations on combat pool stem from the relation between total armor points (impact and ballistic) vs. Quickness. Dodge TN is not influenced by armor (as "stupid" as it might seem). However, when layering armor (with the exception of FFBA and one particular coat) you can suffer TN modifiers to all Quickness related tests (Attribute Tests and Skill Tests linked to Quickness). However, with his given value of Quick 7 there aren't to many layered armor combinations that would incur either penalties.

As far as the "best" armor layered armor combination is concerned for a starting character the full FFBA + Camo full suit is indeed pretty much "best in slot", baring some more creative additions. Although you technically can spice it up without adding more armor with Ruthenium Polymer coated black "camo" full suit + 12 scanners which allows you to either change to any given camo pattern (without movement restrictions) or going for the Predator-like invisibility (which has limitations for maximum movement rates without giving your position away pretty much instantly). However, that's nothing you'll see on a character with C priority on resources.

@Mach_Ten:

As far as the "super hero" interest and TMNT association is concerned I'd say that a sword / swords would indicate Leonardo. Stuff like B&E skills (Electronics in particular) would be more in the domain of Donatello. The "best day of life" attitude would suit Michelangelo ... and I guess the common Ork stereotype about aggressive and short-tempered nature would complete the team by adding Raphael in the mix. Is that on purpose or do you intend to have Silas an even more focused resemblance to any of the Turtles?

Before giving suggestions I'd like to hear if I correctly asserted the chosen power levels and associated costs:

Improved Reflexes Level I: 2 power points for +2 reaction +1D6 initiative
Blind Fighting: 0.5 power points
Improved Senses (Thermo): 0.25 power points
Improved Senses (Flare Comp): 0.25 power points
Counter Strike Level II: 1 power point (0.5 per level)

Since you mentioned that you could be persuaded to change priority orders does that refer to just E for skills vs. anything but Magic with B or does that include swapping things like A for attributes and C for resources as well?

Also a general question: Is priority chargen a "must"? Reason for asking: The point built system would allow to have things like 200k starting resources and attribute point totals not numbered in steps of 3.
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Stahlseele
post Nov 18 2014, 06:27 PM
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With Ressources at Priority C, he is not going to be able to afford the ruthenium stuff, else i'd have recommended it too.
For some more Armor: Forearm Guards straight up add +1 impact Armor. And it depends on how hard you can haggle for the Hat and the shawl to add another +1/+1 . .
There is no ballistic mask as there is in SR4, if it isn't hidden very cleverly in some splat book somewhere . .

One major point i forgot:
how set are you on the priority system instead of point buy?

And if you are set on using the priority system, one of the most broken builds has always been Adept with 1 Million Nuyen.
Because then you can actually have your cake and eat it too . .
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Mach_Ten
post Nov 19 2014, 10:57 AM
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Thanks guys,

I'll try and quickly broaden this out
QUOTE (Cochise @ Nov 18 2014, 05:59 PM) *
As far as the "super hero" interest and TMNT association is concerned I'd say that a sword / swords would indicate Leonardo.
Stuff like B&E skills (Electronics in particular) would be more in the domain of Donatello.
The "best day of life" attitude would suit Michelangelo ...
and I guess the common Ork stereotype about aggressive and short-tempered nature would complete the team by adding Raphael in the mix.
Is that on purpose or do you intend to have Silas an even more focused resemblance to any of the Turtles?

Flaw 1 : Impulsive (2)
Flaw 2 : oblivious (2)
Background skill Interest: 20th Century comics (6)

Silas street name is Rembrandt, he see's himself as the 5th turtle who embodies the best of the turtles ideals and is yet to choose his signature fighting style
while incidentally probably encompasses all of their individual flaws ...
he's the biggest fan (and I freely admit I personally am not, although it was my childhood fave TV series)
so there's no 'Focus' on one personality, more of a
"Man, what would LEO do in this situation?!"
or
" in #51-city-at-war-part-ii There's this totally radical part where the guys are ..... etc."

GM has just confirmed we can use Martial arts from cannon comp. so I need to look into that and skills
QUOTE (Cochise @ Nov 18 2014, 05:59 PM) *
Before giving suggestions I'd like to hear if I correctly asserted the chosen power levels and associated costs:

Improved Reflexes Level I: 2 power points for +2 reaction +1D6 initiative
Blind Fighting: 0.5 power points
Improved Senses (Thermo): 0.25 power points
Improved Senses (Flare Comp): 0.25 power points
Counter Strike Level II: 1 power point (0.5 per level)

Since you mentioned that you could be persuaded to change priority orders
does that refer to just E for skills vs. anything but Magic with B or does that include swapping things like A for attributes and C for resources as well?

Also a general question: Is priority chargen a "must"? Reason for asking: The point built system would allow to have things like 200k starting resources and attribute point totals not numbered in steps of 3.

the power points are correct, except I have spent some of the additional 60 Karma to initiate and Improved reflexes 2 for the extra PP

Chargen is fixed at priority as we are joining an existing group who used the same rules for fairness.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 18 2014, 04:19 PM) *
Formfitting Body Armour and Camo-Full-Suit < = best combination probably.
Maybe the Arsenal Armor for couriers, the Coverall.
Remember, body does not factor into how much armor you can have in SR3.
That was only introduced as of SR4.
The only limiter you have on armor is the only highest counts full,s econd highest only 50% and then problems with combat pool and dodge TN and the such.

cool thanks, will maybe drop BOD a few points, but I already have a possible strength of 10 (with race, edges and ware etc.) it seems excessive
so not sure what else to do with those points... but swapping it all around just wastes an A on magic ... or a stupidly high attribs and no resources.

I guess I'm just stuck on being a young impressionable orc with a burning need to be a hero turtle !
getting it to fit around the skeleton of creation is hard (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 18 2014, 04:19 PM) *
Otherwise Thrown and definitely Club as Weapon-Skill.
Everything you can pick up can be used as one or both of these.
You can usually smuggle one or two of these around, if you use it as a Belt and simply chains on leatherjacket for example.

Instead of Pistols maybe Shotguns? More reach, can be used as a club too. And more Damage if needed be as well.

As an Adept, you need to REALLY focus at the start of the game and the broaden your horizons usually, because you are very strapped for points.

I LOVE the idea of chains as a jacket ornament / weapon for those "oh crap" moments when unarmed will not work
and yeah .. I want him to focus on unarmed / non-lethal ... we already have enough psycho murderers in the team

shotguns filled with rubber bullets ... fun times.

Your last point is the hard one, in trying to be a character in his own right, I lose the focus needed to excel in a team.
but .. I haven't met the team yet, so fitting needs around them is difficult
so I end up as a "BARD"

I'm okay with this ! ... I like Bards! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) but I guess I need my focus area to get the attention of a Johnson in the first place.
H-2-H combat
stealth
basic technical skills for B&E
.... specialist area?? I'm stuck


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Stahlseele
post Nov 19 2014, 11:44 AM
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Hell no! Never lower body if you can lower something else <.< This goes DOUBLE if you are intending on fighting a lot.
Body is the king stat in SR3, followed by QCK for gunbunnies/sneaks and STR for heavy gunners and brawlers.

For unarmd, always go with specialisation fists < = stun glove, hardliner glove, it's just too good a specialization to not take.
Especially seeing how if you do use a kick, you gain 1 point of reach which can either lower your own target number by 1 or increase your targets tn by 1, so even if you have a bit less in terms of dice to roll around, the probability of connecting does not change that much.

I never was a big fan of the martial arts of cannon companion . . way too complicated and too many drawbacks for my liking . .

In terms of whips . . have him wear a hat and be from indiana (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Stealth . . i would not bother too much with actually . . if you can't afford sneaky gear, you will be noticed anyway and if you can afford it, you don't need too high a skill because the gear will do most of the work for you
Same with the breaking and entering stuff actually.

Oh, mucho importante!
If you actually do go for some bladed weapons, do remember this fact:
Dikote is still a thing in SR3!
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Mach_Ten
post Nov 19 2014, 12:27 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 19 2014, 11:44 AM) *
Oh, mucho importante!
If you actually do go for some bladed weapons, do remember this fact:
Dikote is still a thing in SR3!

meant to look up the availability last night but forgot, still restricted by starting rules ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

but am beginning to shy away from lethal weaponry .. in favour of stuns and disabling attacks with gel rounds

Impact armour in SR3 seems to be lower on most mooks
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Stahlseele
post Nov 19 2014, 01:11 PM
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It is generally harder to get impact armor up than it is to get ballistic up.
That's why stun then kill has become a thing.
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Mach_Ten
post Nov 21 2014, 12:20 PM
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okay,

I might be able to use Point buy,

tried it last night but it turned out so much worse than priority, am I doin it wrong ?

200,000 nuyen
Ork
adept.

ended up with only 22 Attribs and 5 active skills (NSRCG) ... weird
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Stahlseele
post Nov 21 2014, 12:47 PM
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Point buy is for more granularity and you can get some points by being creative with edges and flaws.
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Mach_Ten
post Nov 21 2014, 02:00 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 21 2014, 12:47 PM) *
Point buy is for more granularity and you can get some points by being creative with edges and flaws.

I kinda expected it to work out that way but it didn't

forgive my numbers (not memorised them) but I get:

A 1,000,000 nuyen
B Adept
C 22 attribs
D Ork
E 27 skills

from point buy
I'm only after 200,000 nuyen and a mild improvement on the skills or stats above, but it turns out massively worse.
22 attribs and 5 skills

I'm not trying to game the system here to my benefit, I just thought I am doing something terribly wrong and not getting the granularity

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Stahlseele
post Nov 21 2014, 02:05 PM
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Priority gives 1 Million Nuyen, Adept, Ork, 24 Attributes and 27 Skills.
Points gives 200k Nuyen, Adept, Ork, 22 Attributes and 16 Skills.
At default campaign using 105 points.

I think i remember now why i thought points would be better.
Because many use 123 instead of 105 points, and thus get out more.
Out group used to do that too, and on 123 points, you get 22 Attributes and 34 Skills.

At 116 Points used, you get out with 22 Attribute Points and 27 Skills.
So you are at the same Attribute and Skill Numbers, but only at 20% starting money <.<

For 1 Million Nuyen, Adept, Ork, 22 Attributes and 27 Skills, you would need to use 131 Points.

Considering that a High Level Campaign only uses 140 Starting Points . . yeah . .

The main advantage of the point buy system is the more granularity in terms of how many monies you want as starting ressources and the ability to buy edges or get points for skills/attributes by taking flaws . .
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Mach_Ten
post Nov 21 2014, 02:15 PM
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okee doke, sticking with my priority build

cheers Stahl'
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Stahlseele
post Nov 21 2014, 02:22 PM
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QUOTE (Mach_Ten @ Nov 21 2014, 03:15 PM) *
okee doke, sticking with my priority build

cheers Stahl'

np, bored at work, connected to home machine remotely and am tinkering with NSRCG3
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Mach_Ten
post Nov 21 2014, 02:28 PM
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same situation here, but can only get to my SR3 dropbox as work would have a coronary if I tried a remote connection or installed NSRCG at work (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

going to try and squeeze a 123 pointer past the GM and see what he thinks..

already know the flaws and edges are :
Impulsive / oblivious
extra BOD/ exceptional STR

burning 2 points of magic on bone lace . enhanced articulation, suprathyroid etc.. they are just so cheap over Adept PP.

will initiate once I think for a magic point and get counterstrike ... should be a fairly rounded character after all this..

Thanks for the math ... appreciate it
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Stahlseele
post Nov 21 2014, 02:36 PM
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The Min/Max is strong in this one ^^
Try and squeeze in alpha smartlink.
Maybe Smartlink 2, if allowed.
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Mach_Ten
post Nov 21 2014, 02:44 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 21 2014, 02:36 PM) *
The Min/Max is strong in this one ^^

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Those are words I have heard from the group, I mean the "Enhanced articulation" words ...

totally not my fault if I looked at them and my first thought was "YOINK!"

This coming from the person who has read some of your previous entries into the "Broken beginning Archetype of fame" honour roll (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Mr. 6 skills and 18 dice ! starting char ...

I think I can imagine the looks on my friends faces if I put that piece of work on the table and tried to keep a straight face.

The GM would allow me a brief funeral I think... or maybe just incinerate me on the spot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 21 2014, 02:36 PM) *
The Min/Max is strong in this one ^^
Try and squeeze in alpha smartlink.
Maybe Smartlink 2, if allowed.

Allowed and yes I will,

the extra cash allows me to be much more flexible in my utility gear ... climbing stuff and B&E kit ...

excited about our first session of play on sunday, been too long away from Shadowrun.
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Stahlseele
post Nov 21 2014, 02:49 PM
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Skillwise, it's always the wiser choice to go into width and get mods to the TN than to go into high skill numbers and rely on luck on the roll.
18 dice for a starting skill is with pure adept built, 6 skill, 6 improved ability and 6 (combat) pool.
Pretty limited, but it makes people pause for a bit, when you do it the first time.
If you want something a bit more usefull, i have a built where i have 16 skills with 8+ dice.
Without cheating and using magic.

For climbing, impact armor actually helps mitigate fall damage for a bit. Not much though, simply because the damage as usual ramps up much faster than armor.
Mystical Armor for an Adept in SR3 only gave impact armor and made such things a bit more feasible. In SR4, it gives both impact and ballistic armor <.<
Still, get gecko tape stuff and do what you can to simply not fall.
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Mach_Ten
post Nov 21 2014, 02:54 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 21 2014, 02:49 PM) *
Skillwise, it's always the wiser choice to go into width and get mods to the TN than to go into high skill numbers and rely on luck on the roll.
18 dice for a starting skill is with pure adept built, 6 skill, 6 improved ability and 6 (combat) pool.

Hmm good point, raises a question I asked myself last night ... is it better to buy specialisation at char gen, or with Karma?
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 21 2014, 02:49 PM) *
If you want something a bit more usefull, i have a built where i have 16 skills with 8+ dice.

Honestly, no, but thankyou... I enjoy building my char a bit organically around the concept ..

"builds" don't feel to be mine, if that makes sense.

Now I know the irony is that I'm on here asking for build advice,
but I'm not taking it verbatim, adding my own flair and ignoring some bits that feel off.


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Stahlseele
post Nov 21 2014, 02:56 PM
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It was a testbed character to see wether or not i could actually find a way to make skillwires usefull without the drawbacks . .

For a real character concept, i have an Ork Firefighter.

It's better to specialize in char gen, because it's cheaper and easier and faster to get some low ranks in skills in game than to raise a skill just a bit further.

In SR3, you go for some good Attributes for your choice of activity, then get these skills as high as you can justify to both yourself and the GM, then pad out with some all around usefull skills at mid levels and get some low level flavour skills usually.
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Cochise
post Nov 21 2014, 06:05 PM
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I haven't quite had the time to think about giving some hint / suggestions. So at this point just a more general comments:

On build point vs. priorities:

The build point system has the tendency to favor mundane characters over magically active ones. However, it allows for combinations that simply can't be done in priority system.

On implants:

You obviously are allowed to use Bioware for your starting character, so I'd suggest reconsidering the use of muscle replacement cyberware due to the following reasons:

  1. Their quickness bons IIRC is explicitly exempted from reaction calculation while Bioware pendants do not suffer from that restriction.
  2. Their status as cybersystem has ramifications for maximum skill levels for strength based skills which are of importance for melee oriented characters to some degree. Unless you're already aiming for natural strength of 6 (including racial modifiers) that could influence the number of needed skill points for your core melee skill. Bioware does count as natural and - depending on GM's agreement - will form the basis for skill cost calculation even during character generation.

    Side note: Strength - despite being an important attribute for melee oriented characters - can be "min-/maxed" to a certain degree because at some point you'll just face too much of diminishing returns on even higher strength values.
  3. The Bioware systems Muscle Augmentation and Muscle Toner allow independent increases to strength and quickness
  4. The impact on magic is usually lower or can be tailored better to have less impact. But ofc the impact on monetary resources is somewhat higher


As far as your Smartlink is concerned you should have a closer look at the more detailed subsystems in Man & Machine because technically you could opt for a less standardized setup where you use the following cyber- and noncybersystems:

  1. Image Link instead of standard smart link eye display (higher essence cost but more versatile)
  2. Limited Simrig (no replacement there)
  3. datajack (+plus optical wire to your gun) instead of a standard induction pad (again higher essence cost) for transmitting gun data to the smart system.
  4. Smart processor of choice (no replacement possible)
  5. Rangefinder / Personal safety are optional


Despite having an external component in for of an optical wire, this setup does still allow for the full smart bonus and the datajack / image link implants provide more overall "bang for the buck" (just not for combat). And the cable would give the character a more "cyberpunk" touch in my opinion.

On melee skills:

Since you my go for Martial Arts according to one of your postings, I'd suggest looking at Pentjak-Silat and Arnis de Mano (or equivalents) for Martial Arts that allow transfering learned maneuvers onto melee weapons as separate maneuvers. Arnis being my personal favorite due to allowing it for both clubs and edged weapons.
Ninjutsu would allow transferring on all melee skills but the constraints of Ninja Clan or Renegade Master are kind of too intrusive particular for the type of character background you have presented so far.

More thoughts later ...

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Stahlseele
post Nov 21 2014, 07:08 PM
Post #24


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Something very important that was forgotten:
If you go for UNARMED close combat, then get some sort of elemental effect to negate enemy Armor.
Doubling STR is expensive, halving armor is cheap. And let me tell you as the usually dedicated Tank:
hellishly annoying for people like me as well <.<
As said above, TN is more important than dice pool. And if you can somebody deprive somebody of half of thier armor to resist your punches, then you usuylla double their TN.
Let's go with the STR10M Damage and 6 points of Impact Armor Example.
TN to resist your damage on a Hit is 10-6 so 4. If you can halve the armor, it becomes 10-3=7, which is much harder already.
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Mach_Ten
post Nov 23 2014, 12:22 PM
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okay here we go
[ Spoiler ]


I avoided the smart link for a couple reasons 1. I can't afford the essence (magic) loss
and actually .. in keeping with my non-lethal mentality, I don't want to be really good with it.. it's my oversized holdout for laying down clouds of pepper punch
it can be someone elses job on the team to hand out the murder/death/kill

So, on the FFBA, it doesn't count towards the encumbrance limits, do can you stack something else on top ?
or is it just ther best combo?
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