[SR5] house rules for Shadowrun 5, Alternatives rules for SR5 with less rolls and dices Options

[Archaos]

I think there are good innovations in Shadowrun 5 (the magic and perhaps the Matrix (not tested)) and bad (the limits) but my main complaint is that the system is heavy, or even heavier than previous (complexity of fireshots and adding limits).
Good innovations make me want to play to SR5, but my players and me have had enough of this system crawls.

So I worked on a new system with the following objectives:
- Prune Shadowrun 5: less rolls, less dices, fewer attributes, fewer skills, etc. order to have a faster, easier and more fluid game.
- Obtain a relatively compatible system with conventional rules and equipment (scale attributes and skills, d6, damage, equipment, etc.) or at least adaptable without much difficulty.
- Keep the richness of the system and the world of Shadowrun.

Other considerations taken into account:
- There must be a difference between a professional (skill 3) and amateur (skill 1).
- Facing a troll melee should be scary.
- The conjuration is too strong in SR5 and SR4 where mages are doing everything with their spirits.
- Different versions of Shadowrun have the Qualities to integrate the characters in the Sixth World. Provide historical bases would help design a character really related to this universe.

I think I managed to do all this. The documents can be found on the SRA page of my web site (SRA = Shadowrun Alternative).

The basic principle of the system is that the skills set the threshold of the dice (2 in a skill that only the 1 and 2 on the dice are succes). That's less than we throw dice (only the attribute and bonuses) and that skills have real importance. One action = one roll. All dice rolls 'secondary' (drain, defense, etc.) are replaced by constants or removed to speed up the game. Firearmes use and Matrix are simplified.
Small drawback: it's in French (not very complicated French). Sorry for my poor English.

[binarywraith]

You should really test the Matrix before calling it a good innovation. In play, it really isn't.

Most of the rules never even saw use in the game I was in, even with a decker in the party, because brute force handled essentially everything.

[Cain]

I saw the post you made elsewhere. I still can't read your page (apologies. but I haven't studied French for 30-some years) but there are a few thoughts:

First of all, every edition of Shadowrun from 4e-onward is basically a buckets-of-dice system. Your effectiveness is directly tied into how many dice you get to roll, and it's easy to get tons of dice. They also rely heavily on opposed rolls, which slows things down considerably. While changing things to a threshold looks good on paper, with inflated dice pools, you're just making every challenge too easy to pass. Limits don't work, either-- system masters will find ways to finesse or bypass them, while players who don't min/max as successfully with just get frustrated.

The only fix here is a total overhaul. You need to eliminate most of the modifiers, changing things so that there's fewer dice rolled. I still think going to a SR3, skill-only model would work-- attributes only factor in indirectly. It'd also make skills meaningful again.

[Bertramn]

Funny, I am at the moment working on the same project, except I try to modify third edition rules, not fifth.

[binarywraith]

The only fix here is a total overhaul. You need to eliminate most of the modifiers, changing things so that there's fewer dice rolled. I still think going to a SR3, skill-only model would work-- attributes only factor in indirectly. It'd also make skills meaningful again.

At which point we're playing skills vs variable target number and might as well be using SR3 to begin with because it is more mechanically sound in the first place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Cain]

At which point we're playing skills vs variable target number and might as well be using SR3 to begin with because it is more mechanically sound in the first place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Problem is, while you're absolutely right, the OP wants to keep this as close to SR5 as possible. Unfortunately, that means we're going to be stuck with a buckets-o-dice game; because without a variable TN, the only way to be more effective is to roll tons of dice.

In theory, you could get away with a much smaller amount of dice with a fixed TN, but in practice you'd still have people trying to squeeze more dice every chance they get.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Problem is, while you're absolutely right, the OP wants to keep this as close to SR5 as possible. Unfortunately, that means we're going to be stuck with a buckets-o-dice game; because without a variable TN, the only way to be more effective is to roll tons of dice.

In theory, you could get away with a much smaller amount of dice with a fixed TN, but in practice you'd still have people trying to squeeze more dice every chance they get.

The theory does work... Only if you make the DP the goal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Bertramn]

Make Limits limit the amount of dice, instead of the amount of successes.

Because they limit successes, they enter the equation extremely late when you roll,
thus you probably have to look up your limit in the middle of the test,
which leads to it taking extra time to work out the roll.
Making them limit the maximum amount of dice would make them a central part in every test,
which means knowing ones Limits is more integral to the game, which means people have less trouble remembering them.

Also they seem to add something to the game which attributes were in 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition,
an element that limits skills in a way.
In 3rd we had two elements, skills, and the attributes that limit them.
In 4th we had two elements, skills and attributes that boost them.
In 5th we have three elements, skills, attributes that boost them, and Limits that limit them, which are themselves boosted again by attributes.
I liked Limits at first, but now I feel they are adding another layer of complexity to a game which is already way too complex.
Compared to the skill system in 3rd they seem redundant to me now,
at least the way they were implemented.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

SR4/4A has a Dice cap of 20 (Optional Rule - It was something like that anyway, and I really liked it), and I was always of the opinion that that was more than enough.
SR3 was okay in that your skill imposed that limit on you, but I saw some really stupid high DP's, even in SR3, and with the Karma Pool, well, many rolls were not really all that difficult to hit.

[Redjack]

Here are a list of SR5 house rules we actively use. We are trying to keep house rules to a minimum as we all play/run Missions:
- +1dp initiative for everyone (ergo: base 2dp for initiative). Gives more people opportunity for interrupts and provides a slight leveling of reflex/initiative enhancements.
- Combat Defender rolls reaction +/- modifiers: This is opposed to Reaction + Intuition +/– modifiers (SR5 pg 173).
- Restore individual karma awards: Dump the 'one size fits all' Karma awards (SR5 pg376). 1-2 Survival, 1 Per Objective Completed, 1-2 Good Role-playing, 1-2 Guts/Bravery, 1-2 Player pushing the storyline, 1 Right Place/Right Time, 1-2 Smarts, 1-2 Humor/Drama

Both our campaigns currently run based on SR4 with a number of SR5 changes back ported. Given the mess the SR5 matrix is, we are currently keeping SR4 matrix in our transitional campaigns. We have back ported SR5 combat (modified as above) including armor, damage, weapons, interrupts, initiative, and surprise.

[Cain]

SR4/4A has a Dice cap of 20 (Optional Rule - It was something like that anyway, and I really liked it), and I was always of the opinion that that was more than enough.
SR3 was okay in that your skill imposed that limit on you, but I saw some really stupid high DP's, even in SR3, and with the Karma Pool, well, many rolls were not really all that difficult to hit.

The dice pool cap was actually my idea, I posted it here on Dumpshock a long time ago. It was popular enough that it was picked up by Bull and added to Missions.

Unfortunately, when Missions got a hold of it, they left in a loophole. Edge did not count against the cap, so you could break it that way. That led to some problems in my second Missions game, where one guy was rolling a lot more dice than everyone else, which made them feel inferior.

As far as SR3 goes: it was really hard to get a huge dice pool, since the biggest source of bonus dice was limited to your Skill. So, if you had Pistols 4, you could only add 4 Combat pool dice. So, even if you had a huge Combat Pool, you couldn't always use it.

There were ways to get more, of course. My personal record was 20 dice, but that came from abusing fetish foci. The biggest one recorded was 28 dice. Unfortunately, the CLUE files are long gone, but the tale lives on:

"My group of six runners was in the process of breaking camp to continue on our journey through some flatland. From over the horizon came the silhouette of two GMC Banshees. Not prepared for a firefight, the team scrambled to break out the ordinance, the rigger sprints for the Bison, etc.
The troll mage, who has had an unfortunate experience with Banshees in the past, panics and tosses a fireball at the closest one, throwing in all the dice he can get his hands on. The result? He rolls 28 dice for the fireball.

The group was hushed as he shook the huge handful of dice and cast them onto the table.

They came up all ones.

So, as the Banshees bear down onto the camp, the troll mage erupted into a mushroom cloud of organic debris.

We stopped playing for the night. It was a baaadddd omen…"

[pragma]

I've toyed with a bunch of SR5 houserules, but the only one I recommend to other is this: decks cost 10x less than listed price, hacking programs cost 10x more than listed price. It lets more people get into the hacking aspect of the game without them becoming one trick ponies.

Most of my other patch house rules are ideas about how to get the matrix to work: but I haven't found a silver bullet because the rules are a mess. A gentleman's agreement with the hacker seems to work best.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As far as SR3 goes: it was really hard to get a huge dice pool, since the biggest source of bonus dice was limited to your Skill. So, if you had Pistols 4, you could only add 4 Combat pool dice. So, even if you had a huge Combat Pool, you couldn't always use it.

There were ways to get more, of course. My personal record was 20 dice, but that came from abusing fetish foci. The biggest one recorded was 28 dice. Unfortunately, the CLUE files are long gone, but the tale lives on:

I think I finished up with 18 Dice for my Troll Ganger using Counterstrikes. Which in SR3 was a pretty large DP. My Combat Pool was never large enough to really add all that much, and I generally used it for defense. Karma Pool, on the other hand was pretty nice, and it came in very handy.

My 1st Edition/2nd Edition Wolf Shaman borked himself pretty bad with a Hellblast during a Berserk... It was bad. Fortunately, the character did not obliterate... that would have been Really Bad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Hibiki54]

Other considerations taken into account:
- There must be a difference between a professional (skill 3) and amateur (skill 1).
- Facing a troll melee should be scary.

Since Skills now go up to 12, professional level is now 6.

Take an excerpt from Bullets and Bandages on the Biotech Group, for example. The same could be applied to other skills with similar flavor text.

0 Untrained: Has some basic knowledge of anatomy, but nothing more
1 Beginner: Person who took a CPR course or learned some first aid as a Boy Scout or something
2 Novice: Med student, new hospital orderly
3 Competent: Good student, but not up to advanced coursework yet
4 Proficient: Intern, certified nurse’s assistant
5 Skilled: Resident, licensed practical nurse
6 Professional: Doctor or registered nurse in practice for less than five years
7 Veteran: Doctor or registered nurse in practice for five years or more
8 Expert: Leader and/or supervisor in a practice or hospital
9 Exceptional: Award-winning practitioner, recognized in trade magazines as one of the best in their field
10 Elite: Top-flight practitioner at elite facility or university, sought after by wealthy clientele
11 Legendary: Pioneer of new, cutting-edge medical techniques
12–13 Apex: The absolute tops—CEOs of the megacorps fight each other to see these people

As for the other bullet point, facing a Troll in Melee IS scary. I had to face another PC, who was a troll, in melee after he got mind controlled. The only difference between me and anyone else in the party facing him is that my character has Unarmed 10 and had martial arts to negate any advantage the troll player had.

[Cain]

Since Skills now go up to 12, professional level is now 6.

This is a side note, but why is a skill cap even necessary?

Capping starting skills at 6 is a good idea, because it slows down extreme builds. But because skills come at an escalating cost, you'll hit the point where the practical limit is better than a theoretical one.

By not capping skills, you leave the top tier wide open, and those who exceed it are genuinely impressive. Fastjack has a computer skill of 15? That just proves what a badass he is. But if there's a cap, then he's not impressive, he's using special NPC rules.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This is a side note, but why is a skill cap even necessary?

Capping starting skills at 6 is a good idea, because it slows down extreme builds. But because skills come at an escalating cost, you'll hit the point where the practical limit is better than a theoretical one.

By not capping skills, you leave the top tier wide open, and those who exceed it are genuinely impressive. Fastjack has a computer skill of 15? That just proves what a badass he is. But if there's a cap, then he's not impressive, he's using special NPC rules.

Because the concept of completely unlimited growth is pretty ludicrous because you must then push the envelope (for those who are the Shadow Legends, Like Fastjack or Harlequin, etc.) as your players progress.

You need no special rules to implement people like Fastjack. You could add them if you felt the need to do so (and I believe that SR4 did so in the Street Legends book), but it is not really necessary.

[sk8bcn]

Because the concept of completely unlimited growth is pretty ludicrous because you must then push the envelope (for those who are the Shadow Legends, Like Fastjack or Harlequin, etc.) as your players progress.

You need no special rules to implement people like Fastjack. You could add them if you felt the need to do so (and I believe that SR4 did so in the Street Legends book), but it is not really necessary.

I don't think that a top tier NPC should always be [PC ability]+X.

The system should allow a PC to reach Fastjack's level, but given a very high amount of experience.

[sk8bcn]

Make Limits limit the amount of dice, instead of the amount of successes.

Because they limit successes, they enter the equation extremely late when you roll,
thus you probably have to look up your limit in the middle of the test,
which leads to it taking extra time to work out the roll.
Making them limit the maximum amount of dice would make them a central part in every test,
which means knowing ones Limits is more integral to the game, which means people have less trouble remembering them.

I don't like it (personnally).

With a limit on success, having a higher skill still impacts your average successes upward.
With a limit on a dice pool, there's no reason (execpt edge) to go over the limit, and actually, no difference.

I find option A way more subtle.

[Nath]

With a limit on a dice pool, there's no reason (execpt edge) to go over the limit, and actually, no difference.

Only if you assume that there is no negative modifier that apply. It takes a base dice pool of 30 or more to guarantee that you will still roll 20 dice in harsh situations, with wound modifiers and every modifier the system can throw at you.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't think that a top tier NPC should always be [PC ability]+X.

The system should allow a PC to reach Fastjack's level, but given a very high amount of experience.

I agree... But I imagine that My idea of Fastjack is a far cry from Your idea of Fastjack. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

Because the concept of completely unlimited growth is pretty ludicrous because you must then push the envelope (for those who are the Shadow Legends, Like Fastjack or Harlequin, etc.) as your players progress.

You need no special rules to implement people like Fastjack. You could add them if you felt the need to do so (and I believe that SR4 did so in the Street Legends book), but it is not really necessary.

First, you don't need to push the envelope if you don't have a skill cap. It means the players can eventually reach the level of street legends. Otherwise, it becomes one rule for the PC's, and another for the NPC's.

And the point is to make it so you don't need special rules for characters like Fastjack. He's simply got so much Matrix experience, he's earned a skill of 15. And the players know that if they live that long, they might someday stand just beneath him.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

First, you don't need to push the envelope if you don't have a skill cap. It means the players can eventually reach the level of street legends. Otherwise, it becomes one rule for the PC's, and another for the NPC's.

And the point is to make it so you don't need special rules for characters like Fastjack. He's simply got so much Matrix experience, he's earned a skill of 15. And the players know that if they live that long, they might someday stand just beneath him.

Thing is, I don't need to represent Fastjack with a Computer skill of 15. There are other ways to represent a Street Legend without separating PC from NPC. The way SR3 does it is just ONE way of doing so, and not my favorite, because it DOES allow for unlimited advancement, which I have some issue with. I prefer a cap (of some sort) on Skill Level. SR4 was decent with 9 Discrete Skill Levels before Adept Magic. SR5 goes a bit further. But they are both capped, which I far prefer over uncapped skills. To be fair, I was not happy with SR4's way of representing the Street Legend either (Hits on 4+). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

Thing is, I don't need to represent Fastjack with a Computer skill of 15. There are other ways to represent a Street Legend without separating PC from NPC. The way SR3 does it is just ONE way of doing so, and not my favorite, because it DOES allow for unlimited advancement, which I have some issue with. I prefer a cap (of some sort) on Skill Level. SR4 was decent with 9 Discrete Skill Levels before Adept Magic. SR5 goes a bit further. But they are both capped, which I far prefer over uncapped skills. To be fair, I was not happy with SR4's way of representing the Street Legend either (Hits on 4+). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, while unlimited advancement looks game-breaking in theory, in practice the escalating costs keep it from getting out of hand. Granted, the Sr4.5 skill costs are really low, but you could scale it further as you go up. That way, even though there's no theoretical cap, the practical one will help.

Out of curiosity, where are you getting 9 skill levels from? They're rated from 1-6, with 7 a distant possibility.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Skill

Well, while unlimited advancement looks game-breaking in theory, in practice the escalating costs keep it from getting out of hand. Granted, the Sr4.5 skill costs are really low, but you could scale it further as you go up. That way, even though there's no theoretical cap, the practical one will help.

Out of curiosity, where are you getting 9 skill levels from? They're rated from 1-6, with 7 a distant possibility.

Practical caps will definitely exist, to be sure (and those slide depending upon the table, I think), but the powergamers do come out occasionally. See the Topic that details that very subject (28 DP in SR3, Right?). Not in many peoples nature to just keep pounding a Skill, but it does happen, regardless of good reasons (diminishing returns) to the contrary.

Where I see it really having an impact is with the game world itself (NPC"s have no concept of Karma/Experience expenditure). If the GM's desire is to keep the Legends above the Players, then the world scales out of whack after a bit. I have seen this most in DnD, but it does happen in SR as well.

SR4/4A Skills...
Unaware (No Roll Allowed at all)
Unskilled (Skill 0, Attribute -1 Skill Roll))
Skill 1
Skill 2
Skill 3 (Professional)
Skill 4 (Veteran)
Skill 5 (Elite)
Skill 6 (Best in World)
Skill 7 (Legendary - Best of the Best in World)

9 Discrete representable intervals of Skill. Adept adds an additional 3 Levels based on the Adept Power, for a Total of 12 Discrete Levels (Max Skill 10 with Magic). This is about right to me, but I could go to Skill 9 if I had to... the arguments for such don't bother me all that much...

SR5 Goes to 13, so that would be 15 Discrete Levels, + potential Adept Levels if you go with that (Max Skill 19 if Adept Stacks). I think SR5 goes too far.

[Nath]

I thought you meant 9 as in Aptitude+Specialization.

To me, it makes sense that the "best in the world" actually are only in a subset of the fairly broad domain a single SR skill represent. There is the best car racer in the world and then there is the best bike racer, the best sword-fighter and the best spear-fighter, the best salesman and the best diplomat... The only skills for which it doesn't work are the firearms skills (the best sniper in the world probably ought to do just as well with a hunting rifle, or even an assault rifle, which is actually even supposed to be a different skill). I guess a lot of people would say the same about Hacking, because of the way most people picture this activity and the rules themselves: they don't expect a world-class hacker like Fastjack to attain top-level only for one single use of the skill among Exploit, Stealth, Spoof or Decrypt and be just on-par with PC on everything else.