Why is corporate SIN worth 25 Karma ? Options

[Medicineman]

Because we're discussiong it right now in Germany :
Does anybody of You Guys know ( or has a plausible explanation) why Corporate SIN is worth those massive 25 Points ?
ImO it makes more sense
to rate them:
National SIN 5
lim Corp SIN 10
Corp SIN 15
and Criminal SIN 20

What Do You think ?

with a SINful Dance
Medicineman

[Cain]

Because we're discussiong it right now in Germany :
Does anybody of You Guys know ( or has a plausible explanation) why Corporate SIN is worth those massive 25 Points ?
ImO it makes more sense
to rate them:
National SIN 5
lim Corp SIN 10
Corp SIN 15
and Criminal SIN 20

What Do You think ?

with a SINful Dance
Medicineman

By RAW? It makes no sense whatsoever.

Under certain house rules, it makes a little more sense. Someone told me that in Missions, if you had a SIN, you had to pay taxes. Corp SINs had to pay the highest, and it was auto-deducted from your earnings, no matter what you did. That still doesn't make sense, because any shadowrunner worth a damn would know how to hide money away, but it kinda worked as a restriction.

[Bertramn]

The notion is that it is worde for you if the corps have your biometric data, compared to the government in general.

since the corps do not work together much though, it is not.

[Sengir]

ImO it makes more sense

The SIN qualities make no sense? Stop the presses!

[Stahlseele]

What ADVANTAGE does the Corporate SIN give?
Or should the cost simply be -25 making it a flaw instead of an edge?

[Mantis]

What ADVANTAGE does the Corporate SIN give?
Or should the cost simply be -25 making it a flaw instead of an edge?

It is a flaw and you get 25 karma to spend for being corp born. Guess the corp brats do get all the best toys.

[Umidori]

Are you guys forgetting that Runners don't trust Corpers and ex-Corpers? If you secretly have a Corporate Sin, almost everyone in the shadows who finds out is going to view you as a traitor who cannot be trusted.

~Umi

[Stahlseele]

No, i get that, but the opening post read to me like you had to PAY the 25 Karma for being an outcast on discovery . .

[Medicineman]

No, i get that, but the opening post read to me like you had to PAY the 25 Karma for being an outcast on discovery . .

thats because You don't play 5th Ed
(Or You would've known that its a Neg Qual which gives a whopping 25 Points (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

with a whopping Dance
Medicineman

[Stahlseele]

still say they should never have changed from edge/flaw to positive/negative "quality"

[Jaid]

Are you guys forgetting that Runners don't trust Corpers and ex-Corpers? If you secretly have a Corporate Sin, almost everyone in the shadows who finds out is going to view you as a traitor who cannot be trusted.

~Umi

that seems like a rather broad characterization of what is undoubtedly a very broad spectrum group.

some runners (who are themselves former corporate employees) may trust other former corporate employees more. there aren't a lot of general statements you can make about shadowrunners, mostly because if they were the kind of people to fit neatly into categories, most of them wouldn't be shadowrunners.

now, you could certainly make that argument for, say, people who are or used to be members of the halloweeners. that's a sub-group that i'd say would feel strongly anti-corporate, and would feel contempt or mistrust for someone with a corporate SIN.

[Umidori]

A rather broad characterization of what is undoubtedly a very broad spectrum group? Funny - that could apply to the Infected as well, and yet how many people around here insist that it's universal "Shoot On Sight" when it comes to the Infected? Or even just changelings with Insectoid Features?

Runners, more than anyone else, know how horrible the Corps are. You don't have to be a drekhead Halloweener to distrust the guy who used to work for Aztechnology or Saeder-Krupp. Any runner who trusts someone who worked for Blood Mages or Lofwyr is a moron who deserves to die, neh? Unless you have damn good proof they aren't still secretly working for The Man, you're probably better off just shooting them the moment you find out their past.

After all, the Corps are more than capable of brainwashing people into unwitting sleeper agents, or even just simply blackmailing them into doing their bidding. Why risk getting eaten betrayed as soon as your supposed ally gets hungry squeezed by the corps who have dirt on them?

~Umi

[Jaid]

there are vastly more people in aztechnology who have never even seen a blood mage than there are people who work for him. likewise with lofwyr... you're only working for him in a very general sense, in much the same way that a gas station attendant might be considered to be working for the CEO of shell. in a very loose sense, the CEO is their ultimate boss... but practically speaking, you're never going to have any interaction with them.

as to the corps being able to brainwash people... sure. what makes you think someone who didn't work for a corp is immune? you think the corp can't just capture someone and brainwash them?

shadowrunners are frequently paranoid, yes (at least, the ones that live for very long). but a lot of them don't really care about corporations in general (though they may have a beef with one or more specific corporations... someone who lost family in the renraku archology shutdown may deeply resent renraku for playing with fire, especially since those events were closely related to a lot of bad things that have happened since, if you know about the setting, for example).

but if they had a KOS policy towards corporate employees, they wouldn't be able to be shadowrunners.

[Cain]

Are you guys forgetting that Runners don't trust Corpers and ex-Corpers? If you secretly have a Corporate Sin, almost everyone in the shadows who finds out is going to view you as a traitor who cannot be trusted.

~Umi

First problem: every shadowrunner knows how to hide their ID. They have to; the whole point of hiring a shadowrunner is that they're deniable, and they can't be tracked back to the Johnson.

Second problem: many runners are ex-corp types. From the very beginning, there were at least two archetypes like that: Former Company Man, and Former Wage Mae. And other original characters, like Dirk Montgomery, were ex-corp. Historically, it's never been a problem.

Third, the SR5 rules don't actually list any penalty for going corp SIN. These are house rules we're discussing, but by RAW, there's no real difference between a National SIN and the hefty Corp one. Except one gives you five times more points, of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Shaidar]

To me the true bad side for being corporate born is that they definitely have DNA, and quite likely a preserved Material RITUAL Sample.

That seems like a pretty big downside to me.

[Hibiki54]

Third, the SR5 rules don't actually list any penalty for going corp SIN. These are house rules we're discussing, but by RAW, there's no real difference between a National SIN and the hefty Corp one. Except one gives you five times more points, of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

There is a hefty price to pay as a Corp SINer. Like the other SINner negatives, you were born in the Corp and all your information is readily available by the Corp should someone have to run a scan on you. You could be considered a high priority extraction target should someone find you. That's going to draw elite HRT like Firewatch or the Red Samurai. It doesn't matter if your character tossed that SIN away. You're forever on the Corps personnel list. And you're not just some wage slave or kid of a wage slave -- you're in the upper echelon. If you leave a couple drops of blood at a scene and some rent-a-cop runs that sample, he could pull up a warrant for your arrest or to contact that specific corp. And even if you're not part of the Corp anymore, if people find out, your team might lose potential jobs or NPC you work with will back-stab you for whatever reason.

Just throwing things out there.

[Jaid]

i have a hard time believing corporations are that desperate to recover shadowrunners that were formerly part of their corporation. if the person was suitable for employment by a corporation, they most likely would be (bearing in mind that you really don't want your deniable assets to be perfectly happy to go undeniable at an incredibly inopportune time, for example. nor do you particularly want the person who really hates your guts and is most likely extremely skilled in some area that can cause you massive damage to be constantly hanging around your person)

a much more realistic drawback possibility, imo, is that the person left the corporation because someone powerful in the corporation burned them, and that person may find out they're still alive. and even that is not terribly likely realistically speaking (but at least it's believable).

[Critias]

To me, the best way to salvage the SR5 SINner qualities is to handwave "taxes" as "fees," instead. The IRS isn't involved in any way, it's that you're dedicated a cut of all your illicit shadow profits towards covering your ass, and keeping folks from finding out about you, keeping the corp from calling you legally dead or tracking you down, keeping your two lives, your two identities, from explosively colliding (whether it's greasing palms, paying off a crooked probation officer, or what-have-you).

I think the costs are still weird, and all in all I think SR4 had it pretty close to right...but that word "taxes" being there really, really, bugs me, so I headcannon it away as best I can.

And, remember, you don't HAVE to take the qualities to just have these histories as part of your background. As in many games, the Qualities are there if you want the mechanical representation and the points for it; anyone can have a character that grew up in a corporation (or a country, or have a prison record, or whatever), not having the quality just means they've gotten away clean.

[Hibiki54]

In terms of Shadowrun Missions, it's basically getting 25 free Karma to spend with the knowledge that you need to be cautious around that particular Corp.

For home campaign play, I would assume your GM will ask you for a background as to why you want to take that, or go with the whole amnesia route with that knowledge being unknown to you.

[Cain]

There is a hefty price to pay as a Corp SINer. Like the other SINner negatives, you were born in the Corp and all your information is readily available by the Corp should someone have to run a scan on you. You could be considered a high priority extraction target should someone find you. That's going to draw elite HRT like Firewatch or the Red Samurai. It doesn't matter if your character tossed that SIN away. You're forever on the Corps personnel list. And you're not just some wage slave or kid of a wage slave -- you're in the upper echelon. If you leave a couple drops of blood at a scene and some rent-a-cop runs that sample, he could pull up a warrant for your arrest or to contact that specific corp. And even if you're not part of the Corp anymore, if people find out, your team might lose potential jobs or NPC you work with will back-stab you for whatever reason.

Just throwing things out there.

I do have trouble with that, since some shadowrunners in the fiction were raised as corp brats. There are simply too many ex-corp employees to make that sort of thing stick. DNA tracing isn't a big threat, since that cop has to get corp approval to run the check. Unless they have a very good reason to suspect you were employed or born to a given corp, they wouldn't even know who to ask. And then, there'd be the question of rather or not the corp would grant access, which is a "maybe" at best, unless the cop proved that it was in their best interest to do so. So, if they linked you to a run against your original corp, that would work. Of course, if you botched a run enough that they not only pegged that much of your ID, but that you were originally linked to that corp, you're already kinda hosed.

And don't forget, many corp employees were "lost" in Crash 2.0. There were what, millions of people who lost their SINs, their jobs, savings, everything? They'd all end up in the shadows. Not all of them would end up as shadowrunners, but there are way too many to track down individually.

[Moirdryd]

The other thing to remember (although the opening paragraphs for each SIN does it poorly) is that what most of us are thinking of when we hear or see Corporate SIN is in fact the 15pt Corporate Limited SIN which handles the Wage Slaves, Low Ranking Security, Enlisted Corporate Military and also encompasses things like Research Scientists/Mages, Corp Deckers and so on (something which requires special security clearance) meaning that people with a Corp Limited SIN can be desirable for extraction by other Corps. It also covers the children of such people most of the time (minor child of a wageslave). The Corp Limit SIN IS shared in the Global SIN registry and would encompass the vast majority of those we would think of Corporate Origin Characters. Its for those recruited from the outside and for those who grow up in the arcologies (on the apartment block levels). Your Corp ties may well make people resent you in the Shadows, maybe they'll even get violent or question your dependability (plus a Corp may be looking for you if you were good enough to be noticed by them).

The Corporate SIN 25pts (or to give it it's full referenced name in it's own section) The Corporate Born SIN is a little different. It makes the character the child of an Executive, A Lead Researcher, A Departmental Head, Special Ops Captain and so forth. You live breathe and eat Corp (okay so do some of the Corp Limiteds) but there is no grind there, no drudge. Mama Corp didn't just provide, it showered you with wealth and benefits but it expected returns too. You Life was evaluated and planned and you had access to all manner of privileged information, you may not have been right at the top but you were one of the elite. Now take a look at the info for the Neg Quality again, It says you were Pushed Out, Forced to leave a life filled with opportunity and luxury and wealth and Real Food etc, Maybe it was your fault, probably it wasn't. Now after all those years of indoctrination, all that Corp given good stuff... what would you do to give it back? Sell out a pack of Street Scum or a team of Shadowrunners when they go to hit Momma Corp? No wonder the Shadows would see you as a liability. It's also worth considering (although as people have said it's not solid RAW but anyone who knows the Sixth World knows it's certainly part of the game Mythos) with the stuff that you know, or possibly know, Momma Corp doesn't want you telling anyone else her secrets (also worth considering if you left in a more voluntary capacity).

[Sengir]

Third, the SR5 rules don't actually list any penalty for going corp SIN.

Characters with the Corporate Limited SIN experience prejudice and hostility from those in the shadows who are SINless. The SINless believe the corporations deliberately keep them poor and powerless so they can be exploited. The character with the Corporate Limited SIN may find himself being personally blamed for his corporation’s actions—protesting he has no real authority and no connection with the actions in question usually does little good. To the SINless and neo-anarchists the character with the Corporate Limited SIN has sold out and chosen a corrupt and oppressive system over his own people.
...
Most in the shadows see the Corporate Born as the privileged few, the aristocrats in the armored limousines who look down on them, oppress them, exploit them and deny them their basic rights. If the SINless discover the character’s Corporate Born SIN, reactions will range from deep suspicion to violent hostility; serious injury and death are real possibilities. The character’s loyalty to his corporation is never questioned, which can be an insurmountable liability in a culture that works against the megacorps. Would-be runners have been killed for holding Corporate Born SINs.

Yes, everybody suddenly grew fearful of all the ex-corp types in the shadows...

[Jaid]

wow. someone actually wrote that for an official shadowrun book? and then someone else actually ok'd it to be published?

well, fair enough then; that provides the context i was missing as to why people think everyone in the shadows automatically hates, fears, and distrusts anyone who has ever had anything to do with the corporations. apparently every single person in the shadows suddenly got the brain worms since the earlier editions.

(on a side note: i get a kick out of people suggesting that being SINless somehow makes you less likely to want the wealth and comfort that a megacorporation can provide, as if people who are born living in poverty have no desire whatsoever for the high life or something. are we seriously pretending that a person who was thrown out of a corporation or who forcibly extracted themself is more likely to go back to their corp than an average person would be likely to go to the corps in the first place?)

[Beta]

I would say that it is worth keeping in mind that those senior level corp people that Moirdryd was talking about are almost politicians as much as they are businessmen, in terms of how we deal with things now. Position in corps is the premiere way of attaining power in the world, so a lot of ambitious people are fighting their way to the top, which means that every weakness can and will be used against you.

Like your kid/ex-protégé/etc, the mass-murdering professional criminal (i.e. typical shadowrunner). Of course whoever had relationships with you wants you out of the shadows, and depending on their personality either being rehabilitated or silenced. Of course their competitors want you, to use you against those you had a relationship with. Even if you hate those you left behind and would be happy to see them brought down, that doesn’t change the fact that you don’t want to kidnapped from your bed some night and used in that process (and if you don’t hate those you left behind, it is even worse).

Even worse, those powerful people probably have background efforts going on to find you. There may not be a lot of resources put into it, but the odds are high that Dr. Thingamajig who you worked for hasn’t forgotten about you and is worried about what you are going to do, so has your identity on a watch list of some kind, and may even hire people to look for you at times. Meanwhile Dr. Thingamajig’s competitors will wonder what the story is that his pet security mage (or whatever) suddenly dropped out of site….is he/she doing a black op they should know about? Or is there some dirty laundry that needs to be dug up and aired out when it would do the maximum damage to Dr. Thingamajig? Either way worth having a pocket decker spend a bit of time scanning for information, potentially even worth taking more active measures.

[Medicineman]

wow. someone actually wrote that for an official shadowrun book?

Not for just any Book but for the Big Basic Book !!
OtoH its a nice Clichee that SINless vs Corps Idea (reminds me a bit of Land of the Dead)
If it wouldn't mess up the rest of the Shadowrun History I could accept it, but not after 4 Editions of different Shadowrun Backgrount.
Its kind of a Retcon ImO

(on a side note: i get a kick out of people suggesting that being SINless somehow makes you less likely to want the wealth and comfort that a megacorporation can provide, as if people who are born living in poverty have no desire whatsoever for the high life or something

There is an official Canon of Anarchist Berlin, where the Gouvernment offered free SINs and a Comlink to the Anarchist Part in Berlin but only a Fraction of the SINless took the offer.
( Its German Canon of SR3 and 4A )So Yes, some of the SINless don't want that normal, SINfull Life
It makes not much sense to me either,Jaid, but it happens (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

JahtaHey
Medicineman