Why is corporate SIN worth 25 Karma ? Options

[Glyph]

Fake SINs shouldn't be cheap, but personally, I think runners often get paid far less than they should, both because of all of the expensive items they risk at their jobs (fake SINs, decks, drones, etc.) but also the massive costs faced by augmented characters who wish to upgrade themselves. I think professional freelance criminals who operate at the level of shadowrunners should make a lot more money, but a lot of it should go to repairs, bribes, safehouses, etc.

[Cain]

One thing I did with great success in SR2 and 3 was the low cash, high gear game. Instead of paying runners in cash, the Johnson would frequently pay in product: one might have access to guns and body armor, a mage hiring you might pay in telesma or ritual materials, that sort of thing. Cash only runs were common enough, but they weren't the norm.

I had a lot of success with that model. First, it allowed me to control the flow of cash better, so we didn't get runners who were so rich, they demanded thousands of nuyen just to get out of bed. Second, it allowed me to adjust the flow of gear-- cybered characters always had advancement difficulties against the Awakened, because better cyber was really hard to get. Third, it meant that gear wasn't a downtime activity, it was a plot hook. That last point was the big one; my players loved it, because it gave them character-driven runs. So, if you wanted the latest Ares combatgun, you could find someone who'd give it to you... if you did a small favor for them.

My only caveat with this is that you need to warn your players in advance that you plan on running this way. I've had a few players get frustrated, because they didn't understand why the cash flow was so light. Mostly, this was players who came in after I started the campaign, so I probably forgot to tell them.

Anyway, there's no real reason this wouldn't work in Sr4.5 or 5e. You can pay runners in expensive gear, like fake SINs. They'll feel like they got a good deal, and you don't have to worry about some odd piece of equipment breaking your game.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Fake SINs shouldn't be cheap, but personally, I think runners often get paid far less than they should, both because of all of the expensive items they risk at their jobs (fake SINs, decks, drones, etc.) but also the massive costs faced by augmented characters who wish to upgrade themselves. I think professional freelance criminals who operate at the level of shadowrunners should make a lot more money, but a lot of it should go to repairs, bribes, safehouses, etc.

Runners DO get paid far less than is reasonable, at least by Book Standards. Many tables offset this by added incentives, either in Cash or Kind. When you money is where it should be, then the Cost of a Fake SIN should not be so bad. In SR4A, the cost was about right (in my opinion), but in SR5, the recommended payout makes the simple replacement of Identities an onerous task.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

One thing I did with great success in SR2 and 3 was the low cash, high gear game. Instead of paying runners in cash, the Johnson would frequently pay in product: one might have access to guns and body armor, a mage hiring you might pay in telesma or ritual materials, that sort of thing. Cash only runs were common enough, but they weren't the norm.

I had a lot of success with that model. First, it allowed me to control the flow of cash better, so we didn't get runners who were so rich, they demanded thousands of nuyen just to get out of bed. Second, it allowed me to adjust the flow of gear-- cybered characters always had advancement difficulties against the Awakened, because better cyber was really hard to get. Third, it meant that gear wasn't a downtime activity, it was a plot hook. That last point was the big one; my players loved it, because it gave them character-driven runs. So, if you wanted the latest Ares combatgun, you could find someone who'd give it to you... if you did a small favor for them.

My only caveat with this is that you need to warn your players in advance that you plan on running this way. I've had a few players get frustrated, because they didn't understand why the cash flow was so light. Mostly, this was players who came in after I started the campaign, so I probably forgot to tell them.

Anyway, there's no real reason this wouldn't work in Sr4.5 or 5e. You can pay runners in expensive gear, like fake SINs. They'll feel like they got a good deal, and you don't have to worry about some odd piece of equipment breaking your game.

It is an idea we have played with as well, though many runners are very leery of accepting Gear and Equipment that may be used against them in the future. Each table deals with this dilemma differently, I think.

But I will say this... In the real world, there are professional criminals that fall into the Mold of a Minimum payout, and it is ubiquitous in the portrayal of career professional criminals (How many movies have you seen where the Hit man dictates payout for his services (I can think of several just off the top of my head), and rightfully so. After all, The "Johnson" is coming to you to fulfill a service that few others (or no tohers) can provide. When you hit the big time in Shadowrun and become an Elite/Prime Runner, then you should be able to demand better prices than the Simply professional Runner. We have one player that once his characters hit a certain benchmark of expertise, his minimums go up (Often times his mimimums are too high, and the other runners look at him funny, especially when the rent is due). Fortunately, both of our GM's also subscribe to that philosophy. After all, if you can ,make more money boosting cars, then there is a problem.

[Sengir]

I considered "Does [SIN] exist?" but decided against it because of a possible brute force attack.

Brute forcing would still be a problem, since you could just do the "does this DNA swab match [SIN]" query with an arbitrary number of SINs. If a player tried that, I'd point out that considering the corps built the system the way they did, they will take a really dim view of any attempts to circumvent the restrictions. Forgers and similar elements are annoying but often useful, but somebody trying to game safeguards which help keeping a lot of dirty secrets secret is just not acceptable. And those running the GSR have a way of driving that point home.

I envision the fake SIN business to be the domain of high-level criminal enterprises able to place moles among whoever is responsible for maintaining the GSR.

Well, that much is canonical (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Glyph]

Payment in gear is a good partial solution, but it seems like some problems could crop up. It's fine if everyone gets a custom-fitted set of armor, some APDS ammo, and some very good fake IDs and travel papers, in exchange for taking out that bug hive. But what happens when the mage gets paid with a power focus, or the decker gets paid with a better deck - what do the other characters get? Do you handle this with metagaming (look, the rigger got a truckload of drone this time, but your sammie might get his hands on some betaware upgrades next time), or with characters who work as a well-oiled team and take the long view (sure, Wiz the mage got a lot more than the rest of us with that power focus, but it'll make him a more valuable member of the team. And he won't complain if the troll gets a Panther assault cannon as a bonus when we do that arms smuggling job next week). For the latter, I can only see it working either for a group that is very close-knit, or where everyone is an independent contracter (So I got paid more; I'm worth more. You didn't hear me whining when you got a bit extra last time).

[Moirdryd]

Mr Johnsons Little Black Book suggests that a Corporate Johnson can and will offers goods in value of 20% greater than an offered cash payment sum. These are normally put in part of the negotiation and the team will often request items (once they have a Nuyen figure to work around) of the Johnson according to their needs. Obviously depending on the Johnson depends on what can be offered and if something is a no, well, there's always Nuyen (or CorpScrip).

[Cain]

It is an idea we have played with as well, though many runners are very leery of accepting Gear and Equipment that may be used against them in the future. Each table deals with this dilemma differently, I think.

But I will say this... In the real world, there are professional criminals that fall into the Mold of a Minimum payout, and it is ubiquitous in the portrayal of career professional criminals (How many movies have you seen where the Hit man dictates payout for his services (I can think of several just off the top of my head), and rightfully so. After all, The "Johnson" is coming to you to fulfill a service that few others (or no tohers) can provide. When you hit the big time in Shadowrun and become an Elite/Prime Runner, then you should be able to demand better prices than the Simply professional Runner. We have one player that once his characters hit a certain benchmark of expertise, his minimums go up (Often times his mimimums are too high, and the other runners look at him funny, especially when the rent is due). Fortunately, both of our GM's also subscribe to that philosophy. After all, if you can ,make more money boosting cars, then there is a problem.

Problem is, that's largely a movie phenomenon. "Professional hit men" don't really exist, and it's debatable if they ever did exist in modern times. And if they did, no one can say if they got paid millions or chump change. Most of the assassination [attempts] I can think of from the 20th century weren't motivated by money, but rather ideology and politics. (Reagan was somewhat of an exception, Hinkley was just a nutcase.)

Even within the heist genre, there's very few major heists that actually work like a Shadowrun is supposed to. Most of the examples I can find are disgruntled ex employees, and not a professional sabotage and intel squad. Even heists are rare: I can't find many that were sponsored by someone else, mostly we have people pulling jobs for themselves. You don't really see professional criminals who work for someone else, they mostly work independently.

So, the "real world" arguments don't actually fly in Shadowrun, because nothing quite like this has happened in the real world. We can't say what is "realistic" in a setting full of fireball-flinging mages and flying lizards with lethal halitosis, anyway. What would happen is that shadowrunners would charge whatever the market can bear, which might not be a whole lot.

That's why I like to compromise with gear. No company likes to part with money, but if they have stuff you want, they'll trade it happily. Even if they take a small loss versus the retail price, the fact that they made a bulk sale without having to pay for packaging, transportation, or marketing, is a big bonus. This also helps the "little guys" hire shadowrunners, something that happens a lot in the fiction. They might not have lots of cash, but if they can trade for excess inventory, that's a good deal.

[Shemhazai]

Brute forcing would still be a problem, since you could just do the "does this DNA swab match [SIN]" query with an arbitrary number of SINs.

I see your point. At which time that particular "merchant account" would get locked pending an explanation.

My original thought was for players with the idea that they could brute force valid SINs by repeatedly asking the system if a certain SIN exists in the system, and then compiling a list of them to sell like carders do today with credit card info. Of course, we both know that this wouldn't work.

Your model of very limited information is pretty much the only workable way. Still, it might be funny for rather than a transaction to come back as "DECLINED" it came back as "HE'S DEAD".

[Cain]

Payment in gear is a good partial solution, but it seems like some problems could crop up. It's fine if everyone gets a custom-fitted set of armor, some APDS ammo, and some very good fake IDs and travel papers, in exchange for taking out that bug hive. But what happens when the mage gets paid with a power focus, or the decker gets paid with a better deck - what do the other characters get? Do you handle this with metagaming (look, the rigger got a truckload of drone this time, but your sammie might get his hands on some betaware upgrades next time), or with characters who work as a well-oiled team and take the long view (sure, Wiz the mage got a lot more than the rest of us with that power focus, but it'll make him a more valuable member of the team. And he won't complain if the troll gets a Panther assault cannon as a bonus when we do that arms smuggling job next week). For the latter, I can only see it working either for a group that is very close-knit, or where everyone is an independent contracter (So I got paid more; I'm worth more. You didn't hear me whining when you got a bit extra last time).

Part of it was metagame. But also part of it was an in-character network of favors that developed.

So, let's say the decker has a chance to earn a better cyberdeck. He calls up the team: "Hey, Sam? Remember that time I helped you on a run to get a crate of APDS? I'm going after something myself, and I'm calling in my marker." Or: "Wiz? I need some help. Work with me this time, and I'll owe you later." The end result was that the team became *stronger*, since they all owed each other, and were more willing to take risks for each other.

One fun part about a particular campaign I ran was that only about a third of their runs were for actual pay. Most of the runs were character-driven: a favor to a friend or contact, a personal crusade, going after a choice bit of gear, or just getting drawn in through roleplay. The team ended up constantly asking each other for help to do something or other. It actually improved team bonding, since they helped each other on personal missions more than they worked for pay.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Problem is, that's largely a movie phenomenon. "Professional hit men" don't really exist, and it's debatable if they ever did exist in modern times. And if they did, no one can say if they got paid millions or chump change. Most of the assassination [attempts] I can think of from the 20th century weren't motivated by money, but rather ideology and politics. (Reagan was somewhat of an exception, Hinkley was just a nutcase.)

Even within the heist genre, there's very few major heists that actually work like a Shadowrun is supposed to. Most of the examples I can find are disgruntled ex employees, and not a professional sabotage and intel squad. Even heists are rare: I can't find many that were sponsored by someone else, mostly we have people pulling jobs for themselves. You don't really see professional criminals who work for someone else, they mostly work independently.

So, the "real world" arguments don't actually fly in Shadowrun, because nothing quite like this has happened in the real world. We can't say what is "realistic" in a setting full of fireball-flinging mages and flying lizards with lethal halitosis, anyway. What would happen is that shadowrunners would charge whatever the market can bear, which might not be a whole lot.

Agreed on that the Movies are where many gamers get their ideas on what payout should be like. And you are correct in that the Heist job is a personal thing rather than a Corporate or Organization thing. The issue is that they set the trope idea for what something is "worth" and the dangers associated with it.

Whether or not "Professional Hit Men" exist is debatable, depending upon your definition. I would class most of those guys with an organization that has Initials somewhere in their descriptors, whether they be military or government groups. And again, even if they do not exist, the trope is out there, and is again a place where many gamers get their ideas of fair compensation from. One of the guys at our table tends to take those tropes to heart, even if the rest of us often question him on it. When you are in need of money, holding out for $50,000/runner is often a bad decision. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That's why I like to compromise with gear. No company likes to part with money, but if they have stuff you want, they'll trade it happily. Even if they take a small loss versus the retail price, the fact that they made a bulk sale without having to pay for packaging, transportation, or marketing, is a big bonus. This also helps the "little guys" hire shadowrunners, something that happens a lot in the fiction. They might not have lots of cash, but if they can trade for excess inventory, that's a good deal.

Agreed, as long as the characters are willing to accept such things. Many won't, however, because they are paranoid enough to not trust the corp/group offering them high end equipment in place of money. Money is far harder to trace than a serial number on a piece of equipment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

One fun part about a particular campaign I ran was that only about a third of their runs were for actual pay. Most of the runs were character-driven: a favor to a friend or contact, a personal crusade, going after a choice bit of gear, or just getting drawn in through roleplay. The team ended up constantly asking each other for help to do something or other. It actually improved team bonding, since they helped each other on personal missions more than they worked for pay.

Always helps when a group of characters drive the story along. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

Agreed on that the Movies are where many gamers get their ideas on what payout should be like. And you are correct in that the Heist job is a personal thing rather than a Corporate or Organization thing. The issue is that they set the trope idea for what something is "worth" and the dangers associated with it.

Whether or not "Professional Hit Men" exist is debatable, depending upon your definition. I would class most of those guys with an organization that has Initials somewhere in their descriptors, whether they be military or government groups. And again, even if they do not exist, the trope is out there, and is again a place where many gamers get their ideas of fair compensation from. One of the guys at our table tends to take those tropes to heart, even if the rest of us often question him on it. When you are in need of money, holding out for $50,000/runner is often a bad decision. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

"Professional hit men" don't actually exist. The closest I can think of are military-trained snipers, but they don't generally kill outside of a war zone. People who's profession is killing others? Again, outside of the military and a war zone, that doesn't happen. You may find a trained sniper or ex-special forces working for an Alphabet agency, but they'd be rare, most intelligence operatives are trained in languages and computers these days. James Bond is a myth, most real-world spies are paper pushers. I won't say that spies who are also trained commandos don't exist, but they're a definite minority.

Agreed, as long as the characters are willing to accept such things. Many won't, however, because they are paranoid enough to not trust the corp/group offering them high end equipment in place of money. Money is far harder to trace than a serial number on a piece of equipment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, I do admit that the "wifi is your friend" attitude in SR4-5 makes gear trickier. Still, it can work better than a cash-based game. But in SR1-3, it's fairly easy, since most gear doesn't broadcast its serial number for everyone to see.

[Sengir]

Your model of very limited information is pretty much the only workable way. Still, it might be funny for rather than a transaction to come back as "DECLINED" it came back as "HE'S DEAD".

Hmmm, having the GSR report flags like "dead", "stolen", or "SSSS" shouldn't hurt, or am I missing something obvious?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

"Professional hit men" don't actually exist.

Well, we tend to call them terrorists these days, but I would be willing to bet that there are people out there in the real world who kill for money (as there are others who will kill for ideology). One is as good a reason as the other. They tend to be a bit romanticized in the media (Fiction, movies and whatnot). Whether you count them as professional or not depends upon your definition of Professional. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

Well, we tend to call them terrorists these days, but I would be willing to bet that there are people out there in the real world who kill for money (as there are others who will kill for ideology). One is as good a reason as the other. They tend to be a bit romanticized in the media (Fiction, movies and whatnot). Whether you count them as professional or not depends upon your definition of Professional. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) "Professional" hit men are the ones who make a living killing people. Terrorists don't make a living, they go out planning to die. Again, outside of the military, you really don't find people who are paid to kill; and even there, you don't find people who are paid a lot.

[Sendaz]

Again, outside of the military, you really don't find people who are paid to kill; and even there, you don't find people who are paid a lot.

I blame this on a serious lack of Quality Control.

Why pay for a 'professional' when so many thugs are out there who will do it for less than the price of an Americar?

These can not be considered 'professional' as the killing is not their main focus, they can and will do it if called upon, but it's usually a shambling mess and more often than not leads back to you.

Hardly professional.

When you can order a hit along with a taxi on one call you have to know QC has gone out the window...

Just say No to Amateurs and support your House of Sinanju.

For when you want to send the very best. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Glyph]

"Professional hit men" don't actually exist.

*ahem* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cain]

*ahem* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Ha! Good point, but I would hardly consider smiley-face hit men to be "professional" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Shemhazai]

Hmmm, having the GSR report flags like "dead", "stolen", or "SSSS" shouldn't hurt, or am I missing something obvious?

I wouldn't want to alert the fake SINner that the system is on to her. I also wouldn't want a dumb employee to go on a power trip and try to detain the person or obviously call the police. If necessary, the system could discreetly alert the authorities after the ID check fails. There might even be people standing by to authorize the check to appear as if it were successful while they have armed people en route.

I'm not saying that numerous flags would not be a part of the system itself, just that they would not be accessible by just anyone. The criminal SIN flag, for instance, might show itself on queries by law enforcement or an authorized background check, but not necessarily when you receive a package or download a library book.

[binarywraith]

Given SR5 Omnipotent Corporate Matrix Gods, all they'd have to do is flag her credstick (and maybe get a couple free marks on it while it's in the reader) as a possible fake SIN and let the deckers crawl all over her. Welcome to everything being interconnected and open.

It occasionally makes me wonder how anyone at all operates with a fake SIN in SR5's world.

[Shemhazai]

Given SR5 Omnipotent Corporate Matrix Gods, all they'd have to do is flag her credstick (and maybe get a couple free marks on it while it's in the reader) as a possible fake SIN and let the deckers crawl all over her. Welcome to everything being interconnected and open.

It occasionally makes me wonder how anyone at all operates with a fake SIN in SR5's world.

Regardless of which edition you prefer, I think Sengir has found an elegant solution. Whatever happens to someone after a failed SIN check is up to the GM.

I suppose fake SINs should work something like forged IDs, fake documentation, or falsified passports.

[Sendaz]

I wouldn't want to alert the fake SINner that the system is on to her. I also wouldn't want a dumb employee to go on a power trip and try to detain the person or obviously call the police. If necessary, the system could discreetly alert the authorities after the ID check fails. There might even be people standing by to authorize the check to appear as if it were successful while they have armed people en route.

Kind of reminds me from the first Thor movie when they had caught Thor while he was trying to recover the hammer and his 'Donald Blake' ID came up as an obvious fake, they let him go and followed him rather than detain him as they must have realized weird stuff was going down and it was easier to just follow and see what was happening than waste time holding him as he was not an immediate threat but still of special interest.

[Redjack]

It occasionally makes me wonder how anyone at all operates with a fake SIN in SR5's world.

Agreed. The complete interconnection and advent of G.O.D. was definitely designed without a legitimate understanding of how that would all work. Another pet peave of mine from the SR5 matrix is the run that all connected firearms have their own, extra icon in AR. Seems that would be the first thing hackers would 'fix'.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Agreed. The complete interconnection and advent of G.O.D. was definitely designed without a legitimate understanding of how that would all work. Another pet peave of mine from the SR5 matrix is the run that all connected firearms have their own, extra icon in AR. Seems that would be the first thing hackers would 'fix'.

But the only fix is for you to just use older (throwback) equipment or burn out the Matrix hardware (which is pretty ludicrous). That said, I am all about using older equipment, actually. Can't hack equipment that has no Matrix Presence. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)