Dumpshock: Improvements?, Soliciting Member Feedback Options

[Redjack]

So the "Dumpshock... What happened?" thread has us thinking. What things could be done to reinvigorate Dumpshock?
Please be polite. If you disagree with someone's opinion, reply with constructive criticism.

Example: Telling us the mods are a bunch of lazy fudge sticks won't get you far. Saying you wished for more active moderation and quicker squashing of arguments (vs debates), is a constructive suggestion.

[Smilingfaces]

Add something that when people argue it kicks them to a private room where they can hash it out going back and forth instead of post after post in a thread:)

[Sendaz]

Let's break it up into more sections and maybe even give us a bit of an opportunity to build on it.

So maybe a New Content, Rules & Errata, Toys & Shinies, House Rules, Short Stories/Mission Diaries (telling the run from a particular characters POV).

It is still up to us as members to actually add to these, but maybe what we can do is bring back the focus on creating things in the game instead of tearing it down.
I mean, Toys & Shinies could be a great place to come up with new items for others to integrate into their own campaign. Somewhere where we can bring them to be final tweaked and statted without having someone jump down their throat because it is not from the printed books.

Hell, lets even throw in a MetaCooking Section so one can share their favorite recipe for Behemoth Gumbo or other Awakened World recipe. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Remember Ka Ge magazine and Shadowrun Supplemental? Half the fun was seeing new stuff made up by fellow gamers/writers and hey, because it was done by folk who actually played it the material followed the game, unlike where we sometimes see content coming out that seems to have been made by someone not even familiar with the setting.

To often we get bogged down in arguments over RAW vs RAI on the same piece of equipment when each and every new edition comes out, but there is little to no change in said equipment. While it is good to have a baseline, the equipment list has gotten pretty vanilla. So why not unleash that inner techie and let's see what new toys we can come up with?

Short stories/Diaries can give a spot for members to swap tales and maybe let someone stretch their writing chops a bit who might not have otherwise. Written by players for the players. We are grateful for the writers we have, but there still remains a large gap in the novel side that still looms large.

When you look at the number of members here with years if not decades of experience, there is a huge amount of potential just begging to be tapped.

[DeathStrobe]

I don't think more sections will help. And I don't think there really is anything the moderators can do.

I think the only thing that will help will be people actually talking about the content.

Like a new book just came out about the Metaplanes and no one is talking about it. This new untouched part of the Shadowrun world which had always been left open for GM interpretation finally has something. And no one cares to talk about it, offer their own interpretation, or whatever the hell. Instead its all about how SR5 sucks and has killed Dumpshock, while in truth Dumpshock killed Dumpshock by not moving past their vitriol.

Shadowrun.com, shadowruntabletop.com, /r/shadowrun are doing great and are more popular than ever. The truth is that Dumpshock has been left behind because its a community of grognards that won't get with the times and accept the fact that the new direction is the "right" direction for the SR line. Is SR5 perfect? Hell no, but it does fix problems that are inherent to SR4, just how SR4 fixed problems from SR3, and so on. You can disagree with those changes, and to a degree you might even be right. But shouting down any talk about the new edition doesn't help add to the community, it only drives people away. So people move on to other forums where they CAN talk about the new rules and setting.

[Cain]

I don't think adding more sections will help, either.

The strength Dumpshock has right now is the history. We here know more about the past of Shadowrun than anyone else, and are better at breaking down systems, and coming up with ways to fix them. We should play to that.

As part of that history: Dumpshock began as the Deep Resonance forums, a site that linked together all the top fan sites and mailing lists of the day. That's how we became so popular, we were formed by all the fans coming together. That might work again: start offering server space to a lot of fans, so they can put up their own pages. They can use the Dumpshock.com domain name, I know others used it in the past. As fans build their base here, they'll start attracting more people.

You can also bring back some of that history. The Dumpshock Archive is long gone, but I can still find copies of it via the Wayback Machine. Some of that stuff wasn't very good, but some were pure gold-- the CLUE files are absolutely hilarious, for one. They also hosted a ton of adventure suggestions, the unofficial timeline, and many other valuable resources for Shadowrun fans in every edition. Make this a fan-based place again, and the people will come.

[binarywraith]

Oh, man. I haven't though of the C.L.U.E. Files for years. That and Blackjack's page were real influences on me back in the day.

http://web.archive.org/web/20000815084411/...sers/blackjack/

http://web.archive.org/web/20011224233544/...rner/index.php3

If you ever wonder where a lot of the old GMs get their attitude from, go read Blackjack's articles.

[Cain]

Oh, an idea I had: RPG.net has the + or - system for thread titles. If you want to just discuss the positive aspects of something, put a [+] in the thread title. Everyone knows that's what you want, and any negative discussion is a derail. On the flip side, a [-] thread is to discuss problems, and trying to say that there aren't any is a derail for that thread. Expectations are clear, we know no bashing in the + threads, and no apologies in the - ones, and so people have a chance to voice their likes and frustrations without being attacked for it.

[fistandantilus4....]

I don't think more sections will help. And I don't think there really is anything the moderators can do.

I think the only thing that will help will be people actually talking about the content.

The reticence to bring up something like that has/had been a problem here before. We as moderators got a lot more active on stepping on the people that were the main buzz kills. It helped quite a lot at the time. The question remains as well though, will people use sub sections if we make them, or tend towards posting in the main forums area? Worth looking into though.

The strength Dumpshock has right now is the history. We here know more about the past of Shadowrun than anyone else, and are better at breaking down systems, and coming up with ways to fix them. We should play to that.

That's part of the problem though. The attitude that we know better or have some sort of grace just because we've been here longer doesn't exactly fly anymore. Sorry Cain not trying to rain on you, but although there is the history, I don't think that's really enough. Especially since a lot of those old fans have since gone on, either well and away because of bad blood (Ancient History .... pun intended) , or taking it a step further and started working directly on the game (Critias, Bull). We don't go hugely out of our way to make the freelances feel welcome , even though some of them like Patrick Goodman have taken a lot of time in the past to post and hang out here. We tried to make a point of not specifically toeing the line, so to speak. But then those guys ended up being the punching bags for problems that were bigger than them. It's not Patrick Goodman's fault if someone has a problem with the way a piece of tech increases a threshold. Hell, even if it happened to be, he shouldn't have to defend himself for every rule he writes. After a while, it's just not worth it for those guys to fight it out. Easier to post on the CGL boards where they can moderate more directly.

It's been a long time since I've seen some old familiar handles like mfb, Kagenenshi, Kanada Ten, Fortune, tisoz. A lot of that base has moved on, or moved elsewhere. The issue before was the climate, which has always been sort of a Dumpshock thing, and occasional source of backwards pride. But you can only hate on the game for so long without contributing without people wanting for something a little more relaxed and opened. Happened before, we fixed it. We had to cut some people out (SL James, Doc Funk, Frank Trollman for example). Even though some of them had some damn great ideas, they were frankly, pains in the ass. Personally I like Doc a lot. He's a good guy. But he was a pain on the board. It has, over the years, tended to be the attitude, not the ideas, that draws us down.


Edit: Sorry , I tend to make long posts when I have something to say. I'm going to sit back and read for a day or so, let you guys say whatever and expression your desires/complaints/whichever. We'll be here listening and debating amongst our selves. Thanks for adding your thoughts all.

[binarywraith]

I honestly don't think most of the issue is Dumpshock. It's hard to be a Shadowrun fan right now. The products that are coming out really aren't all that exciting if you don't love 5e, because the same problems that crop up in the main book (editing, loss or disregard of institutional knowledge of the setting and backstory) crop up in everything so far published for it. Add on top that the books we've seen so far have all been essentially re-released or long delayed 20A content, or reprints of main rulebooks that haven't changed substantially, and it gets even more difficult.

I'm not sure what can fix it, but I think the ball's in Catalyst's court now. We've got a lot of people here who dearly love the game, and would be rapidly engaged... if they were given something worthwhile to engage with.

Right now, the first few books spurred discussion, but as it became obvious that the same problems just kept cropping up, people quit talking about stuff, or looking forward to it. I feel really bad for the freelancers who post here, because what's getting published really doesn't make them look anything like as good as it should.

[Bertramn]

Making a clear distinction between threads that are about 4-5 or 1-3 Editions would be a good help.

Starting a thread about a 5th Edition problem is not going to help if the discussion revolves around 3rd edition rules starting at post number three.

[bannockburn]

Personally, I'm not sure if there are improvements to be made.
I am, although I like more structured forums, perfectly happy with just one big SR forum, and then the "everything else"-forums here.
I frequent all major shadowrun forums, and from my perspective, DS is no more or less caustic than other ones. The moderation here seems fair, too. Fairer even than examples I've seen elsewhere.

Finding root causes for inactivity is always difficult, so I can only speak for myself:
For me it's not something that's specific to Dumpshock. It's a general lack of interest in the new line. I don't buy the products, I don't follow the discussions, so in reverse I also don't contribute. I'm also not one for spewing opinions about products I don't own, based on hearsay or other user's reviews.

So, in essence, because of 5th edition, I've become more of a lurker in most of my forums.
The poor editing of many of the late 4th edition products followed by a very lackluster release basically killed the franchise for me.
I still play with the extensive material I own (which is, for better or worse, almost every 4th Ed. product) and bend it to my needs, but that's material for years to come, so my lack of interest doesn't hurt me.
Furthermore, I very much hope that the authors keep their passion for what they're doing.

For what it's worth, I don't think that DS is a more or less hospitable place than other forums. I'm not often on reddit, but I've met trolls and unpleasant people on all of them. People will have favorites, either due to usability or a perceived lack of hostility or even friendly atmospheres, but my experience tells me that this may be due to confirmation bias.

tl;dr: Keep on keeping it on, DS.

[tisoz]

When I try to solve a problem like this, I ask myself some questions.

What made it popular? Why did people come here instead of all the other options?

What are the differential advantages? Think of this as what does the site do better than others? If it was in terms of countries or geographic regions, what is inexpensive and abundant here that has a demand elsewhere? What 'natural resources' can be found here and how can they be 'cheaply exploited'? Can 'new products' be developed that would 'create demand'?

I found Dumpshock the first day I got on the internet in early 2001, the same day FASA announced they were closing. I got a bit of a rude greeting, perhaps served, and looked to see what other sites had Shadowrun content. There were hundreds of sites, but Dumpshock was far and away the most active. I learned quite a bit, even though I had been playing the game for a decade and thought I knew it pretty well.

What I liked was learning about potential game breakers, discussions of rules I had overlooked or that had been played incorrectly, and the almost instantaneous responses to requests for help.

What I see as a huge problem came with the introduction of 4th Ed. Prior to 4th, I believe most people ran 2nd or 3rd with probably the majority playing 3rd. I know some still played 1st Ed but there were not the thread stopping edition wars when a first edition player offered their 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and the newer edition players did not deride them for staying with 1st. Since 4th Ed, it HAS been a problem and frankly, I get tired of reading it. Perhaps it is time to divide the editions on the forums. I think 3rd Ed threads usually get marked as such, but invariably, someone will post (not always unwelcome) having not noticed it regarded 3rd Ed. I rarely take time to read threads that are not marked 3rd Ed so don't know if this is an issue for those topics. It got to be such that when life kept me away for some time, I really did not miss my Dumpshock fix as it had become 'unfun'. I am going to guess that the other forums that get mentioned are mainly devoted to compatible editions.

Will this resolve another of the major problems of thread hijacking? I realize topics evolving has always occurred and threads getting hijacked has happened often enough, but perhaps it is time for the admins to step in and move hijacked threads. This is especially true if the forums do not get split and the hijacking keeps devolving to edition wars.

[Sendaz]

Having sections in itself was not really the point I was trying to bring up, though I should have worded it better.

I just wanted some way to kick start more conversations about new things/adaptations/ideas/SR humor/ etc..., but this can be done with threads perfectly well without sectioning the forum itself. But if we do get ideas popping then things can get buried sometimes so I had suggested sections so folk could look for things they want/need help with easier. I do like the search feature here better than at the official one for finding particular items among the older threads.

And it doesn't always have to be uber serious where it is just a RAW vs RAI discussion, but again maybe things to fill the sandbox with like the old Blackjack pages did to inspire us to think outside of just what was printed on the pages of the core books.

I am going to try to sit down and think of what kind of threads we can kick off along these lines.

[tisoz]

I have really liked BRodda's linked posts to some of his creations. The Tow Truck one had me asking why didn't someone else already come up with this? The tactics for low level NPCs had some excellent ideas before getting derailed. Like the majority of the Redneck Runs. I'm sure that those who have been around more recently know some more examples.

These are the sort of topics that Dumpshockers can be great at posting.

I may even run another fiction contest. I like to think I got Critias started even if I didn't, lol. Maybe he can let me know how deluded I am in that belief.

[Shortstraw]

I'm not particularly active simply because my group isn't playing at the moment. So I still pop on from time to time and toss up some science/tech article I think might interest people but don't really have a lot game wise to discuss.

[Aria]

I recognise that it was a hell of a lot of work (and sadly I'm in no way volunteering) but the Dumpshock DataHaven stuff was great...is there a way of getting more contributors via the boards? I don't think there's anything else like it on ShadowGrid (the only other SR place I frequent personally)??! Shorter but more frequent issues?

Also pulling together a decent timeline resource would be wonderful! I used to refer to the one here all the time until it lost steam. The one in 6WA picked up some but by no means all items and it doesn't look as though Catalyst is going to come back to it as an information format...? Anyone have the link to the original by the way? Mine seems to have disappeared into the mists of time...

If the board does get broken into more sections there would need to be some sort of 'recently unread posts' system or something like on SG I'd suggest, that only becomes a problem if things get more active here of course (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[Smilingfaces]

Well perhaps a section where its 1-3rd ed then 4-5th. That way it stops the bickering over systems. I think 1-3rd got along simply because the game was fairly the same attribute wise and other fluff reasons. 4th-5th is different stat wise bla say bla. So then just make sure if someone hates old or new and they start a edition war stop that and reprimand them if they are in the wrong section just causing havoc. Other then that I think things will work out old players will do there own thing creating what they like while the new players can do the same.

[tisoz]

Can a "Like" feature be added? There are several posts I see and think exactly. Posting such doesn't really add anything to the conversation, though I can think of at least one person that seems to do so.

[Shev]

I haven't been active because I haven't really played much since 4th hit. Got a few games in 4th in, but I and my players hated it. Combined with the fact that we all graduated college that year, our group kind of fell apart. I was barely aware of the advent of 5th, but from what I've seen none of the stuff about 4th I disliked was addressed and even more issues were introduced. I’ve only just started browsing the board again because a few people I know got interested in the world that I described for them, so I’m going to be running my first game of 3rd in a long, long time.

But even with that, I don’t find much to post about because most everyone is just discussing the difference between 3rd and 4th, or 4th and 5th, or what have you. Most of my contributions to those is relating what I liked about 3rd and disliked about 4th. I’d love to post something more positive, but with no new 3rd ed content to discuss, there’s not much else.
Essentially, it’s like enjoying Reeses Peeces since you were a teenager, and then suddenly a new owner buys out the company and replaces the peanut butter with caramel. Some people love the change, but it leaves you cold and wondering why the hell they couldn’t have just made their own damn brand from scratch.

In short, I don’t think there’s much the mods can do. The current situation is due to the state of the game and the genre, and the only way to even pretend that everything is hunky-dory is to just ban anyone who’s not content with the current situation.

[Wounded Ronin]

Some people probably remember I used to post a lot.

Personally, since I know jack about 4th edition onwards, I found it was harder to participate in conversations since I had no idea what people were talking about rules wise. If someone were to talk about 3rd edition I'd be better able to participate, although by now I haven't played in years so I have started to forget some details. So, if we were to have different forums, maybe having forums by edition?


Also, maybe have an archive of the old material like others have said. Well known articles and so on. A lot of that stuff is what built my interest in the game in the first place back when I was a kid. That and some of the 80s-sensibility early SR novels as well....

[Starmage21]

I only feel like Dumpshock had any decline at all because an official forum was launched. Ever since that point, its been just easier to go there for all the info and opinions that bloomed into discussions and treatise that appeared here.

Plus, people are going to follow the game devs wherever theyre posting, trying to get official answers in regards to their rules questions, or to help divine the rules-as-intended if the rules-as-written are off. 'They ain't postin' here.'

[Critias]

On the topic of splitting up into edition-based subforums, I just want to point out they've got that -- pretty much exactly that -- over on the Shadowrun Universe forums. I hate their layout so I don't post over there or keep up with it as often as I could/should, but even at a glance, the subforum activity numbers are pretty jarring; "previous Shadowrun editions" has about 600 total comments (with about a half-dozen threads that have seen any activity in all of 2014), "Shadowrun 4th Edition" has about 4,000 (with exactly two posts made any time this calendar year), and "Shadowrun 5th Edition" has going on 17,000.

Just some post count stuff to keep in mind, which might be relevant to the discussion. Maybe it says something about gamers in general, maybe it says something about Dumpshock's attention span for older editions compared to other forums (and what that implies about demographics, I guess), maybe it says something about the divisiveness of new RPG editions in general, maybe it only says something about the forum layout and interface of the Shadowrun Universe forums...I dunno. But since it's a topic of discussion, I figured I'd share that completely anecdotal data point, about edition-based sub-forum activity.

[fistandantilus4....]

I recognise that it was a hell of a lot of work (and sadly I'm in no way volunteering) but the Dumpshock DataHaven stuff was great...is there a way of getting more contributors via the boards? I don't think there's anything else like it on ShadowGrid (the only other SR place I frequent personally)??! Shorter but more frequent issues?

Also pulling together a decent timeline resource would be wonderful! I used to refer to the one here all the time until it lost steam. The one in 6WA picked up some but by no means all items and it doesn't look as though Catalyst is going to come back to it as an information format...? Anyone have the link to the original by the way? Mine seems to have disappeared into the mists of time...

If the board does get broken into more sections there would need to be some sort of 'recently unread posts' system or something like on SG I'd suggest, that only becomes a problem if things get more active here of course (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

As to the Datahaven, there's been work on and off to keep that going. Redjack did it a few years back but it lost steam. It's a lot of work, and frankly there was too much going on in RL.

Same on the Timeline. I know I loved the hell out of that thing and would look it up all the time. I even started doing a sort of "Shadowrun Prequel" , running a game based in 2012-2014, which it was incredibly helpful for. But updating it is a whole different issue, simply because of the amount of reading and input that would have to be done on it.Not that I don't love the idea of an updated timeline, but the task is pretty Herculean.

As for sub-forums and all things functionality around here, I defer to RJ on that. He's out organizational guru.
(Ever have one of those moments when you say "I am soooo glad we hired that guy? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) He's pretty awesome, but like the rest of us he has the demands of every day life as well.

Please keep thoughts coming, pros/cons, this might work, this might not, whatever.

[Shev]

Found a post of mine talking about this exact issue...in 2008.

I mean, I've read (and run) 4th ed before, so I could discuss it...but really, it's 3rd I want to discuss. People are welcome to their technomancers and generic magicians, but I'd rather discuss things like new totems for shamans, what kind of cyber your sammy loves, or how to build a viable adept with only freefall and improved reflexes for powers (Imp reflexes 2 : 3 points. 12 levels of free fall: 3 points. "Look! Up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane!" *THUD* "IT'S A MIRACLE!")

Damn I feel old.

On the topic of splitting up into edition-based subforums, I just want to point out they've got that -- pretty much exactly that -- over on the Shadowrun Universe forums. I hate their layout so I don't post over there or keep up with it as often as I could/should, but even at a glance, the subforum activity numbers are pretty jarring; "previous Shadowrun editions" has about 600 total comments (with about a half-dozen threads that have seen any activity in all of 2014), "Shadowrun 4th Edition" has about 4,000 (with exactly two posts made any time this calendar year), and "Shadowrun 5th Edition" has going on 17,000.

I think most of the people who still prefer 3rd stick to DS, when they post at all. I'm not sure that divided forums is really the answer though, for the same reasons given above.

[Kyrel]

Personally I wouldn't recommend splitting up the forum any further. 1) The traffic volume isn't really big enough to support it IMO, and 2) Unless you have significant traffic and posts, I find that this layout is just annoying.

As for what Dumpshock can do, in order to get the traffic back up again? I have to be honest and say that I don't really know, because from my perspective the place just seemed to kind of "die down" gradually after the introduction of 5th ed. We can argue that people who liked 5th ed got run off by the negativity of the people who disliked the changes in the new editions, but I'm not sure that I really buy that as the main reason. Sure, some probably migrated to another forum, but to that big a degree? In my mind, the main problem with the forum atm, is really a lack of new posts on topics that can be debated. To my eyes, the place seems almost deserted. New posts have become something of a rarety in my perspective, and a dead forum isn't really an attractive one to visit on a regular basis, which cuts down the activity further.

So what's the solution? Frankly, we need to get people posting more new threads, so that the forum becomes alive again. To my eyes, it really doesn't matter what the threads are about, as long as they are SR relevant and as long as they are there. More threads mean more chances that people will find something to debate/talk about, and that's really what we need. Who's running campaigns they want to tell about? Who needs some fresh ideas for a run or story arch? Anyone interesting in looking at build proposals or perceived game-mechanical issues? Personally I don't really have anything to contribute in terms of new threads for the time being, seeing as my gaming group for SR is currently put out to pasture. RL happened. Also, knowing nothing about 3rd ed., and not having bought 5th ed., I'm currently a littled hampered in the contribution department.

As for the tone of the debate here on DS, I have to admit that I don't really see much of a problem with it in general. That being said, however, there are people amongst us, who could frankly use a knock on the head once in a while, when it comes to how we elect to express our disagreements with someone. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing on things and debating them, but arguments should not involve personal attacks, and there are no reason to directly or indirectly insult another forum member, especially deliberately. Regardless how much you disagree with them on something. That is perhaps one thing that the moderators could look into. Pls. note that I'm not advocating thread closing, member banning or anything similar, but perhaps put on the mod. voice a little more often, and tell people to put away the insults/personal attacks. But that of course only work if people actually listen and "take the hint".