Dumpshock: Improvements?, Soliciting Member Feedback Options

[Abschalten]

Anyway, not to discourage people from trying, because it would be really cool to see new fantasy/cyberpunk world that could compete with Shadowrun

Savage Worlds has a setting called Interface Zero. IZ 2.0 came out this year and I've been running it on and off since I got it. It's a nice replacement for Shadowrun, and even has some ex-SR writers helping to develop the line.

[Shortstraw]

Savage Worlds has a setting called Interface Zero. IZ 2.0 came out this year and I've been running it on and off since I got it. It's a nice replacement for Shadowrun, and even has some ex-SR writers helping to develop the line.

How are the hacking rules?

[Sengir]

I find it bitterly ironic that several people have suggested the way to improve dumpshock is to fix SR5.

Me and some others have pointed out that we see SR5 as the reason activity has gone down significantly, that does not entail that fixing SR5 (questions of practicality aside) is the way to improve Dumpshock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


And since the issue of thread derailment seems to be a prominent concern, here's my two cents: Discussions meandering in the weirdest directions is completely normal and not a problem in itself. If the effect it has on individual threads causes concern, we should encourage everybody to split off discussions once they have diverged significantly from the original topic line. Apart from keeping the original thread clean and on topic, this would also allow people who have no interest in the original topic to find the new discussion, which might be relevant to them.

[Cain]

Are you talking about Play By Post? Because trying to compete with Roll20 would be tough, to say the least. In fact, I'd rather see resources compiled specific for use in Roll20 campaigns.

Play by Post has the advantage that it's not in real time, although it is only a part of the online play available. Wizards has been trying for years to fully develop a virtual tabletop, but they keep losing critical people.

[Abschalten]

How are the hacking rules?

A little weird and (IMHO) in need of a little clarification, but the mechanics are simple and they resolve quickly. There is direct AR-style hacking and VR as well, but building your avatar (think persona) is a crazy money sink. But compared to most hacking mechanics I've seen they are perfectly serviceable and you won't play a half hour solo mini game while everyone else goes out for pizza and cigarettes.

[Shev]

Play by Post has the advantage that it's not in real time, although it is only a part of the online play available. Wizards has been trying for years to fully develop a virtual tabletop, but they keep losing critical people.

Play by post, we could try to spruce things up a bit. I don't see much point in trying to build up a "map+chat+dice+etc" program like Roll20, though. I think we'd be better off making things like macros and character sheet to be used in conjunction with it.

[nezumi]

So a question here is, what exactly is your intended audience?

Is it new players? Casual players? Oldbies? Creative types? Freelancers?

I think some markets are a little harder to capture. Newbies/casual players are more likely to start with the Shadowrun.com forums, or on a forum they're familiar with like reddit and general roleplay forums. Competing with them for that market is going to take some more aggressive tactics. Freelancers I think has already been discussed. And the current DS population has to be taken into account as well. The fact is, I hear a lot of people here saying they don't care to play SR5, and therefore, aren't likely to be very helpful when it comes to seeking SR5 rules clarifications. And even if you bring in SR5 people, that's not going to do anything to help retain your current SR 1/2/3/4 folks.

I think the best thing we have to offer, the most marketable skill here, is the creative types. Our rules knowledge is outdated, and being the best SR1/2/3 place on the web only means readership will continue to decline. But creating new material isn't limited by editions.

How would we be more creative? Make space for more permanent editions. Finding WR's special 80s-style adept powers is just about impossible even for me, who knows what he's looking for. The Drop Bear Adventure at least is easily found, but getting people to fill in gaps was tougher than I anticipated. SR3R was literally driven off the site. I don't know what happened to Sphynx's alternate magic system. I have the pdfs, but otherwise I think it's lost to the forums.

But these are products that add value. They give us space to debate and bicker, if that's what we want to do. And it gives us space to fill out the SR history as well. However, a forum is not the best place for them, because they get lost. And last I saw, the forum policies aren't always the friendliest either (and this is not something I put on the leadership. I understand DS walks a fine line sometimes. But SR3R getting bumped off the forum was, IMO, a major loss.)

A few semi-regular columns would help too. Someone to curate some great stories. I love the novel-writing idea. A lot of these projects will suck. A lot will fail. But some will succeed, and that's what DS needs.

[Jack VII]

Play by Post has the advantage that it's not in real time, although it is only a part of the online play available. Wizards has been trying for years to fully develop a virtual tabletop, but they keep losing critical people.

As one of the players in one of the more active PbP threads on Dumpshock, I have to say that I'm surprised how few of the regular posters participate in PbP games on the boards. PbP certainly has its share of challenges and frustrations that could deter players/GMs, but it can be a lot of fun. Additionally (aside from the SRT Forum), there really aren't all that many places to find a PbP game of Shadowrun, certainly no where else where Shadowrun games are the primary offering. I don't think we necessarily need mapping tools/dice rollers/etc, the cloud revolution has helped to fix a lot of that by offering shared resources, but running more PbP games (which can take the form of any edition) would probably drum up a bit more activity.

I just find it odd that so many people spend a considerable amount of time participating in raucous debates in the main forum, but don't seem to want to play the game itself in the PbP forums. I'd suggest everyone should give it a shot. The best part is that the Mods don't really even have to do anything for that to happen.

[Beta]

First of all let me say that I was not here during its salad days. I have been with other forums during their rise and fall, however, and I think I see some common themes.

As for SR, I played some first edition back around 1990-1991 and kept a couple of the supplements I’d liked from that, and later on I picked up the second edition rulebook during a futile attempt to get a gaming group going later that decade. Then I just didn’t do any face to face gaming for years because of, meh, just life stuff. In due course part of that ‘life’ stuff grew into a teenager and got into gaming, and one day was looking through my bookcase and discovered some rather dusty SR books, and thought the world looked pretty cool. I’d been running a campaign for him in another rule set, so we parked that and I picked up the fifth edition rulebook and started looking for resources online. I’ll admit that I started on the official forums, but someone linked to something here and I found some good stuff, so I kept coming back.

That last sentence is probably a bit part of the problem, right there. Type “ShadowRun forums” into Google, and this place is the third site that pops up, and the first two have the game’s name in the website name. If you go to either of the other two first, and find reasonably active forums, why would most people keep looking farther? That is, for people who don’t already know about the web site, and that is part of the key—people always move on from communities and interests, so the only way to keep a place thriving is through acquiring new participants. Step one is having them find you.

Of course, step two is convincing them to keep coming back, and step three is getting them to participate. A little bit of that can be ease of use, slickness of the interface, and so on, but personally I think a lot of it comes down to content. So, what does this place offer that that the official forums don’t?

I’ll tell you what really kept me coming back—the Redneck Runs thread. I’m not bad at coming up with ideas but I still voraciously seek out ideas from others, because it creates more variety in a game, and that thread is a mother load of unique ideas. After that I realized that there are a number of posters on here with very detailed knowledge of the setting, so I found it was also a great place for asking odd questions on that front.

On the other hand, quick rules questions, house rules musings, getting notification of new books being available….the official forums work just fine for that. Why would I post those sorts of questions here, where the grumpy grognard factor is higher? Over on the official forums I’m more apt to get thoughts on how the rule works in 5th edition, and less apt to get complaints that it was better in 3rd/4th/whatever, that the poster told everyone that rule was trouble three years ago but nobody ever listens, or that this was hashed to death in the great motorbike controversy of ’09 (I’m paraphrasing here, but I’m sure you’ll recognize what I’m talking about).

To summarize:
-CON: DS is not the first place people will come
-CON: DS is pretty grognardy, which can be intimidating and can make it less useful to new posters.
- PRO: DS has a treasure trove of knowledge, experience, and creativity, that can create supplementary content for a game that is not all that well supported right now.

Of course, the second point has the potential to stifle the third point—if people try to provide adventures, regional back-ground, cool NPC, or whatever, and get nothing but “that isn’t consistent with the one mention of that area in a second edition source book” or “this is basically a rip off of something I posted back in ‘03” or the like, well then people are not apt to contribute a second time.

In short, my suggestion is that if DS is to have a strong future, it should be looking for ways to encourage people to contribute fan content. Being the premiere place for fan content is a pretty solid niche, and should help expand the community.

[Redjack]

So a question here is, what exactly is your intended audience?

Is it new players? Casual players? Oldbies? Creative types? Freelancers?

Perhaps that's really the first question we need to ask. I agree with you about Newbies/casual players. Perhaps it is time that we consider what we want our focus and audience to be. Is it time to begin to diversify a bit?

In short, my suggestion is that if DS is to have a strong future, it should be looking for ways to encourage people to contribute fan content. Being the premiere place for fan content is a pretty solid niche, and should help expand the community.

This is part of the conclusion I was coming to.

Another thought is to possibly diversify with resources for various Cyberpunk genre games... Would that make us lose too much of our focus?

[Beta]

One more VERY simple thing, for making the place more welcoming: put out a welcome mat.

More specifically, sticky a "introduce yourself here!" thread. Give an optional template in the first post. Encourage old timers to re-introduce themselves, so that that newbies have a chance to figure out who is who. And for individuals who care about the forums, stop by that thread occasionally and welcome the new posters and help point them in useful directions.

Maybe it sounds like a corporate marketing ploy, but honestly welcoming people and interacting with them really can help.

[Bertramn]

Another thought is to possibly diversify with resources for various Cyberpunk genre games... Would that make us lose too much of our focus?

I do not think so.

Having a place on here for Cyberpunk2020 and Eclipse Phase and Cyberpunk Gurps and that Savage Worlds Cyberpunk Setting and stuff, would be a great way to accumulate general material, which could fit into any setting.

[Cain]

As one of the players in one of the more active PbP threads on Dumpshock, I have to say that I'm surprised how few of the regular posters participate in PbP games on the boards. PbP certainly has its share of challenges and frustrations that could deter players/GMs, but it can be a lot of fun. Additionally (aside from the SRT Forum), there really aren't all that many places to find a PbP game of Shadowrun, certainly no where else where Shadowrun games are the primary offering. I don't think we necessarily need mapping tools/dice rollers/etc, the cloud revolution has helped to fix a lot of that by offering shared resources, but running more PbP games (which can take the form of any edition) would probably drum up a bit more activity.

I just find it odd that so many people spend a considerable amount of time participating in raucous debates in the main forum, but don't seem to want to play the game itself in the PbP forums. I'd suggest everyone should give it a shot. The best part is that the Mods don't really even have to do anything for that to happen.

Slight tangent: I play PbP on one or two sites. Generally, I don't like using a traditional forum, like Dumpshock, for a couple of reasons. There's no dice roller, for one. Another is no special places for character sheers, pictures, that sort of thing. I'm not worried so much about maps, but not being able to post images is a moderate issue. And there's the fact that you can't have multiple names when you post-- Dumpshock rightly restricts you to one account per person, but when you're running multiple characters (either in different games of as NPC's) it certainly helps to give them different names.

[flowswithdrek]

How about a nice new DumpShock logo or some nice artwork to freshen the site up?

[Sengir]

Having a place on here for Cyberpunk2020 and Eclipse Phase and Cyberpunk Gurps and that Savage Worlds Cyberpunk Setting and stuff, would be a great way to accumulate general material, which could fit into any setting.

Well, there is a "General Gaming" board here...

[Redjack]

How about a nice new DumpShock logo or some nice artwork to freshen the site up?

That actually has been on my mind. I'll start a new thread to discuss.

[bannockburn]

<snip try PBP>

For me that's got nothing to do with DS. I simply hate the format with a passion. I want my games in real time, not waiting for a forum post.
I'll freely admit that the format has its benefits, but it just doesn't appeal to me.

So, for me (and many others I know) playing or not playing PBP-games isn't a pro or con of DS specifically either.

[Shaidar]

My 2 yen,

Dumpshock has the advantage of history and longevity. Capitalizing on this perspective and make the Sixth World history available to the SR4-5 crowd in the color and texture that our experience has granted us.

One means might be to host a type of 6th World Wiki, maybe. Cross-referencing all of the events, people, and places given in the various SR products over the years.

[DeathStrobe]

My 2 yen,

Dumpshock has the advantage of history and longevity. Capitalizing on this perspective and make the Sixth World history available to the SR4-5 crowd in the color and texture that our experience has granted us.

One means might be to host a type of 6th World Wiki, maybe. Cross-referencing all of the events, people, and places given in the various SR products over the years.

There was a 6th world wiki on dumpshock, but it wasn't very well maintained and was eventually moved to the shadowrun wikia, where it is still not very well maintained...

[fistandantilus4....]

One more VERY simple thing, for making the place more welcoming: put out a welcome mat.

More specifically, sticky a "introduce yourself here!" thread. Give an optional template in the first post. Encourage old timers to re-introduce themselves, so that that newbies have a chance to figure out who is who. And for individuals who care about the forums, stop by that thread occasionally and welcome the new posters and help point them in useful directions.

Maybe it sounds like a corporate marketing ploy, but honestly welcoming people and interacting with them really can help.

Welcome to Dumpshock.

Here's your Dikoted Ally Spirit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Ahh .... I miss that reference. Damn. Now I feel old.

[tjn]

Welcome to Dumpshock.

Here's your Dikoted Ally Spirit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Ahh .... I miss that reference. Damn. Now I feel old.

Isn't that supposed to be a Dikoted Viper Slivergun Ally Spirit? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

As for the topic... if Dumpshock is going to grow, it needs the new players of Shadowrun. New players of Shadowrun are going to predominately be using 5th edition, and maybe 4th as the books are still in circulation. New players using 3rd or before are just going to be so rare as to not to have a significant impact upon DS. This next bit is going to annoy the old guard to no end, but if DS is to grow, it needs to jettison the previous editions and make 5th edition the default for discussion, despite whatever misgivings some might have about Catalyst, the new rules, or whatever.

By perpetuating the conflict from the editions by trying to straddle the line and support all camps, it comes off, at best, as the old man screeching about "back in my day, the roads were paved in gold," but will more likely cause confusion for the new players, who will move on to other places that don't have debates around rules that are fifteen years old, and in books that have been out of print for over six years now. Here's the thing: there's a cap on the potential old edition fans and every day that cap grows smaller, just from the attrition of life. Catering to a niche, of a niche, of a niche, is not a winning plan to bring fresh blood to DS.

Make a clean break and don't look back. If DS is going to attract new players, it needs to cater to new players, and not the people who have already been here for almost twenty years. God I feel old now.

[binarywraith]

Throw the baby out with the bathwater, why don't you. The official forums already exist to pretend that nothing before 4e ever existed, no sense in cutting ourselves out of it and throwing away our old posters as well just to try and steal a few of their posters.

[tjn]

And when the old posters go away due to college, jobs, kids, or life in general? Who will replace them? Old posters are a finite resource, and holding on to them at the expense of the new only leads to a slow death when the old posters gradually leave for their own reasons. If DS wants new blood, it needs to cater to new blood.

[nezumi]

it needs to jettison the previous editions and make 5th edition the default for discussion, despite whatever misgivings some might have about Catalyst, the new rules, or whatever.

This is certainly the most straightforward method, if the only goal is to increase the number of members.

But then, I don't think that's the whole question. I'd like to think that I'm still welcome here, and I do like having a place to go to. And as was pointed out, doing that just puts us in the same market as shadowrun.com, /r/, and so on. Dumpshock isn't special, and therefore, isn't competitive.

I'd think the ideal solution:
1) Builds on our strengths
2) Doesn't require showing a large segment of current members the door.

[Draco18s]

Late to the party here, I don't really have any ideas, but

Add something that when people argue it kicks them to a private room where they can hash it out going back and forth instead of post after post in a thread:)

I first read this as "something that when people argue, it kicks them in the privates."

Which I thought would be a great idea, if only it was viable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)