Shadowrun Licensing, Kickstarter? Options

[Abschalten]

I stopped really caring about this place mostly because of SR5. Sorry, but it's true. This place only exists because of Shadowrun, and the health and quality of the game is going to have a bearing on this place. I found myself only making posts to take potshots at a sub-par edition of what used to be my favorite game. I realized eventually I have better things to do with my time.

I do load up the site occasionally and lurk to see if there's any new posts of interest, but that's maybe every week or two, whereas I was a multiple-times-per-day visitor.

The solution is to fix Shadowrun on the product end. Stop buying the books, let the license go to someone else, maybe they'll do a better job. Then this place might bounce back.

[Bertramn]

How does that licensing work?

Is FASA still holding the rights for the third edition basic rules?
Is the setting as a whole under copyright? And how does that work?

If something like Pathfinder were to be attempted for Shadowrun,
which is the way to do it?

[binarywraith]

IIRC, Topps (yes, the baseball card company) owns all of the Shadowrun intellectual property. They owned WizKids, who in turn bought the IP from FASA when it went under. Catalyst Game Labs has license from them to produce tabletop gaming products, supplements, and fiction. Possibly also other merch, although it's rare enough that I'm not certain.

The video game rights are completely separate, and are owned by Microsoft and licensed to Harebrained Schemes to produce Shadowrun Returns... although they also had to license the IP from Topps for it.

Confusing, I know, but it's the same situation where CCP (Eve Online) owns all the White Wolf catalog, and Hasbro owns D&D via owning WotC, who bought out TSR. The only way Pathfinder was able to happen was the OGL, which meant the basic mechanics of D&D 3.x were open source and free to build upon, so long as the worldbuilding and copyrighted IP were stripped out. That'll never happen again, as it led to D&D making a monster that has sold at least as well if not better than 4e D&D.

[Bertramn]

IIRC, Topps (yes, the baseball card company) owns all of the Shadowrun intellectual property. They owned WizKids, who in turn bought the IP from FASA when it went under. Catalyst Game Labs has license from them to produce tabletop gaming products, supplements, and fiction. Possibly also other merch, although it's rare enough that I'm not certain.

The video game rights are completely separate, and are owned by Microsoft and licensed to Harebrained Schemes to produce Shadowrun Returns... although they also had to license the IP from Topps for it.

Confusing, I know, but it's the same situation where CCP (Eve Online) owns all the White Wolf catalog, and Hasbro owns D&D via owning WotC, who bought out TSR. The only way Pathfinder was able to happen was the OGL, which meant the basic mechanics of D&D 3.x were open source and free to build upon, so long as the worldbuilding and copyrighted IP were stripped out. That'll never happen again, as it led to D&D making a monster that has sold at least as well if not better than 4e D&D.

Mh, so I guess doing something like Pathfinder is not possible then, at least commercially.
Is it legal to do something like that if it is not sold?

[Smilingfaces]

There is another way, rebellious but we would need this rebel group that supposedly is here on Dumpshock and off Dumpshock. If there is this rebel group here like its being implied and it is truly not just hot air but a real passionate desire to fix something. "Then draw the line in the sand." Paizo did and gave the new system of D&D the bird. If your truly disenfranchised with the current system, stand by your desire and quit talking about wanting or wishing about it to change. Let us channel this energy, creative desires and anthusasim to roll out, and up, the good ole black flag and take the system back, in a true shadowrunner way!

1. Put a petition up on dumpshock stating We the Dumpshockians, and all lovers of this beautiful fictional world called Shadowrun. Decree; That the current system is unjust, and milking the IP. We here by state our support for an overthrow of the system, that will give the IP back to Jordan Weisman and (or) the original creators. We the Dumpshockians seize this initiative and aim to open a crowd funded source to do just that and buy back the IP, for all gamers and readers of this beautiful world of Shadowrun everywhere.

2. Spread the petition around the net and other media outlets, to where ever and who ever lets you post it slap it on anything and everything. Let the creators see our plight, let them see this creation that they helped make, has now took a breath on its own. It's now knocking on their door, saying "Listen up chummer, we are not going away." "You created us and we want you to take responsibility of this creation" "This thing you created was head of its time, like all great writers from H.P Lovecraft, Nigel Findley, Iggy Pop, to the Ramones." It's time has come, and we want you to be at its helm guiding it across the sea of time."

3. Create the crowed funded donation by Dumpshock, the name is known by the originators.

I know this plight seems impossible my fellow Dumpshockians, but this war is winnable. It has happened once before on the grand stage of time. When people desire became so overwhelming that the creator had to accept responsibility of what they created. Sir Conan Doyle creator of Sherlock homes, killed Sherlock off, because he wanted to stop writing Sherlock Holmes. The Adventure of the Final Problem was published in December of 1893, in The Strand magazine. People were so upset that more than twenty thousand of them cancelled their subscription to The Strand magazine. The public's response was phenomenal damn near rioting. Doyle had to resurrect Holmes. The Hound of the Baskervilles was also first published in The Strand. The magazine's circulation rose by thirty thousand overnight. Later Holmes was truly brought back to life in The Adventure of the Empty House. At the start of the story Watson is alone. His wife is dead and he believes Holmes to be dead as well. However Watson learns that Holmes's death was a ruse to hide from Moriarty's associates.

Jordan has created Shadowrun Returns, when the time was gritty and good. He still has that special magic, the vision, the desire. So if you are with me and truly dream the same vision, say OI! and cross that line in the sand. Together to arms.. lets hoist up the black flag and sail our armada across the sea of cyberspace and spring our captain(s) so they can take the helm.
I'll be the first to donate $200 in US for this cause, I may go with out cigarettes and coffee but DAMN IT, the cause is good and who wants to stand idle and watch something that inspires all of us go to drek? We can all dream better when the cause succeeds.

[Bertramn]

3. Create the crowed funded donation by Dumpshock, the name is known by the originators.

I know this plight seems impossible my fellow Dumpshockians, but this war is winnable. It has happened once before on the grand stage of time. When people desire became so overwhelming that the creator had to accept responsibility of what they created. Sir Conan Doyle creator of Sherlock homes, killed Sherlock off, because he wanted to stop writing Sherlock Holmes. The Adventure of the Final Problem was published in December of 1893, in The Strand magazine. People were so upset that more than twenty thousand of them cancelled their subscription to The Strand magazine. The public's response was phenomenal damn near rioting. Doyle had to resurrect Holmes. The Hound of the Baskervilles was also first published in The Strand. The magazine's circulation rose by thirty thousand overnight. Later Holmes was truly brought back to life in The Adventure of the Empty House. At the start of the story Watson is alone. His wife is dead and he believes Holmes to be dead as well. However Watson learns that Holmes's death was a ruse to hide from Moriarty's associates.

I would prefer working on the rules first.
The Revolution may follow.

Going and making them public is still possible on a later date.

Also I do not think that the percentage of people who are so dissatisfied with fifth edition, that they would figuratively take to the streets, is that great.
That is why I am mainly interested in a clean rewrite of third edition.

[Adam]

1. Put a petition up on dumpshock stating We the Dumpshockians, and all lovers of this beautiful fictional world called Shadowrun. Decree; That the current system is unjust, and milking the IP. We here by state our support for an overthrow of the system, that will give the IP back to Jordan Weisman and (or) the original creators. We the Dumpshockians seize this initiative and aim to open a crowd funded source to do just that and buy back the IP, for all gamers and readers of this beautiful world of Shadowrun everywhere.

You know that Shadowrun is owned by Topps, right? This means two things that are salient right here:

1. They have a lot of money. You won't impress them.
2. They aren't the ones making Shadowrun products; they're just licensing it out.

[Smilingfaces]

Yes I am aware that Topps owns the IP (intellectual property) Had you read what you quoted you would of seen "buy back the IP". It's in the fourth sentence of what you quoted me for in case your confused.
In response to; "They have a lot of money. You won't impress them." You do realize I am talking about buying back the IP, right? Not talking about buying out Topps. Rich people and companies buy and sell things all the time its no different. People part with works of art, artists have bought their IP back from major labels they signed with, I could go on. So don't just say "oh they have money, they aren't going to be impressed" $0.00 isn't impressive. A crowd funded source raising that up will be. See the difference?

[Sendaz]

There is another way, rebellious but we would need this rebel group that supposedly is here on Dumpshock and off Dumpshock. If there is this rebel group here like its being implied and it is truly not just hot air but a real passionate desire to fix something. "Then draw the line in the sand." Paizo did and gave the new system of D&D the bird. If your truly disenfranchised with the current system, stand by your desire and quit talking about wanting or wishing about it to change. Let us channel this energy, creative desires and anthusasim to roll out, and up, the good ole black flag and take the system back, in a true shadowrunner way!

The concept does have its merits, and if anything crowdsourcing/kickstarter has shown it could raise significant funds.

You might even be able to obtain the IP back from Topps, as they are having a bit of a reshuffle on the sports side with the Panini/NFLPA contract so maybe a quick injection of money now vs the current payment over time through licence may appeal to them.

However, I think before we go down that route, we would need to line up ducks on this end first.

What happens to those already licensed? Will there be a grace period for changing over or are all things just going to go screeching to a halt? Remember these are peoples livelihood.

Would Weisman even be interested in going back down the full game route? Just because he loves doing SRR does not necessarily mean he wants to be dealing with the whole enchilada again.

If you are going to try and swing this, one would really need to have the people lined up to actually make the thing.

Not saying it can not happen, but first you need to look past the first goal of getting the IP and think, okay what then?

[flowswithdrek]

Does anyone even have a rough idea of how much such a transfer of IP would cost if it was even up for negotiation? I think it would be significant, or it would have happened before now. Having said that, raising the money through the community would probably be the easy part.

[binarywraith]

Not to mention the question of what the contract between CGL and Topps looks like. You could very well get the IP and then discover that you're stuck with CGL having it licensed for another few years.

[nezumi]

Buying the license isn't realistic. Something like Shadowrun, the cost is going to start in the six digits. For Topps, something like this is the goose laying the golden egg. Shadowrun will likely continue paying out in licensing fees for years, maybe decades, without Topps having to do anything. Plus you get things like video games and novels, which have to license it as well. With SR:R out and SR5 just released, the likelihood of selling the license (not leasing) is probably a non-starter, so you'll need a mountain of cash just to walk in the door. Plus, the license is currently under contract. Topps cannot legally break that until it's up for renewal.

And indeed, if you did get the license, what then? I don't expect Weisman is interested in SR any more. And that's even assuming that's where everyone agrees they want it to go. Are we just going to hand it over, no strings? All that money we raised just donated to Weisman/Mystery Line Manager's new RPG company? Or do we hold the license so we can revoke it if we decide we want to? And if we hold it, who is 'we'? Do we incorporate a holding company? Who manages that?

This plan is neat, but it's also pie-in-the-sky.

[Shemhazai]

Six digits? I was thinking on the order of eight.

That golden goose is usually referred to as a cash cow. I think that's the problem. As a fan, of course I want them to spend more money on making Shadowrun more attractive to a larger audience rather than sit back and collect profit from the existing fan base.

I don't see problems with the IP being transferred to a new owner, even if it's currently under license.

Doesn't Jordan Weisman head Harebrained Schemes, which is actively developing Shadowrun products? Why do you think he's not interested in Shadowrun?

I would hope for a new IP owner to invest in it (designers, writers, artists, etc) in hopes of turning a higher profit in the future with a larger fan base that will purchase games, spin-offs, novels, figures, comics, animations, TV, film, etc. That business strategy would benefit the Shadowrun community greatly.

[Smilingfaces]

If we crowd fund it, it will generate revenue to buy the IP its as simple as that. As far as who would own it how about the creators that have there name in print from 1st edition wasn't it their idea's? If they didn't pen it down then it wouldn't be here today right after all these decades it is still here. Its not hard to split something into equal shares 3 is 1/3rd for example. As long as it was handle properly I can see it in my mind working"hey you do Japan. I'll do NAN ready break." I can see then also having the know how to print novels they had a whole line back in the day. PS you do realize these guys worked with each other at one point to right? Does anyone remember them having a huge blow out with vows of "i'll never work with you again!"

As far as Topps and this is somehow there golden goose egg, lets all take a moment to wrap out heads around that statement.. I got nothing. Like Topps isn't a diversified company this is somehow one of the major contributors to increasing their revenue a niche rpg market. Some how I missed the memo when Shadowruns Card game striped magic the gathering from its lofty money generating position as THE CARD GAME. I must of been pass out drunk when Shadowrun rocketed to the #1 RPG in the world surpassing all challengers. Lets get serious for a moment. How many novels came out since catalyst took over? Catalyst as in actualy stamped name to. I don't want to include the germens I believe they somehow have there own IP, to shadowrun. If my memory serves me correctly. I don't speak germen so that's why I am not sure, I don't keep up with their products. But I can tell you Harebrain as put out 2 games already while catalyst still cant get their MMO off the ground plus put out a unfinished product, I might add that is just obvious.

Look if I seen support for this idea id help organize it, I would. I already offered to donate $200 in US, I would just throw money at it when ever I could as well, so it be more then 200 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) All contracts have clauses when its outsourced that part I can tell you. I am sure if enough money was tossed at topps they would sell the IP.

[Draco18s]

If we crowd fund it, it will generate revenue to buy the IP its as simple as that.

Because that worked so well for the Homeworld IP. Even if they'd made their goal (which was a paltry $50,000) the owner would know exactly how money they have, how much interest there is, and say "no." If the amount isn't very large (cough, 50k) they'll just opt to holding onto it (not enough interest). If it's larger they can say "no" and then do something with it, making even more money (massive interest making the IP more valuable than the offer).

[flowswithdrek]

Well, like I said earlier, finding the money would be the easiest part. If I really thought the IP was up for grabs I would certainly contribute to a 'Fan Held IP'. What I would want to see is a small group of knowledgeable people put forward a plan in advance. Just handing it back to people that worked on it in the past won't cut it, even if it is nearly Christmas. Sure invite them to work on it, try and put a dream team together, but just don't hand something so hard won by the fans straight back out of their hands.

[Sendaz]

Well, this is where the fun begins as has anyone actually talked to either Mr. Weisman or L. Ross Babcock III, you know the two founders you were wanting to go back to? I am well aware that Weisman is Harebrained, but that does not necessarily means he wants to get back into pen and paper.

Remember FASA shut down before, not because of bankruptcy, but is said they got out of what they saw as a dwindling market and instead went to focus on particular niches, like Weisman went on to doing more computer games with Microsoft.

Mr. Babcock btw is back on the Board of Directors for the renewed FASA Games Inc., unless I missed a sacking somewhere (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) .

Plus if you have been following the reconstituted FASA's attempt to revive Earthdawn (which they Kickstarted and I donated toward by the way), you would see that this project is waaaaaaayyyyy behind schedule with no actual release of any of the promised goodies to date , which should have started appearing back in August.
Possible release dates remain elusive, but to be fair there has been a number of problems.
You can follow that item's progress here.

So problems with production are not limited to CGL alone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

What we would need before doing anything else is a core of people who would actually be able to do something with it.

[nezumi]

One thing I think is clear, between the license discussions here and lamenting in other threads, is that many people feel like SR2/3 is a good game, but it needs some tweaking (not to mention, new material). Not only will that help us as players, but it will also get the forums moving again as we debate endlessly on all of the new rules, adventures, and background information that's coming out.

We did have that at one point, but it got moved off-forum, for fear of upsetting the relationship with CGL. But at this point, I'd like to think those bridges are pretty effectively torched. I'd really like to bring Shadowrun 3 Revised back to Dumpshock, where it will get the attention and traffic it needs. Kage did a great job with what he had, but his forum didn't have enough publicity (largely because he was respectful enough to DS to not push it). I've been running with the new ruleset for years and love it. More hands on deck could only improve things.

Is that feasible? Can the ban on SR3R be lifted?

[Critias]

If we crowd fund it, it will generate revenue to buy the IP its as simple as that. As far as who would own it how about the creators that have there name in print from 1st edition wasn't it their idea's? If they didn't pen it down then it wouldn't be here today right after all these decades it is still here. Its not hard to split something into equal shares 3 is 1/3rd for example. As long as it was handle properly I can see it in my mind working"hey you do Japan. I'll do NAN ready break." I can see then also having the know how to print novels they had a whole line back in the day. PS you do realize these guys worked with each other at one point to right? Does anyone remember them having a huge blow out with vows of "i'll never work with you again!"

As far as Topps and this is somehow there golden goose egg, lets all take a moment to wrap out heads around that statement.. I got nothing. Like Topps isn't a diversified company this is somehow one of the major contributors to increasing their revenue a niche rpg market. Some how I missed the memo when Shadowruns Card game striped magic the gathering from its lofty money generating position as THE CARD GAME. I must of been pass out drunk when Shadowrun rocketed to the #1 RPG in the world surpassing all challengers. Lets get serious for a moment. How many novels came out since catalyst took over? Catalyst as in actualy stamped name to. I don't want to include the germens I believe they somehow have there own IP, to shadowrun. If my memory serves me correctly. I don't speak germen so that's why I am not sure, I don't keep up with their products. But I can tell you Harebrain as put out 2 games already while catalyst still cant get their MMO off the ground plus put out a unfinished product, I might add that is just obvious.

Look if I seen support for this idea id help organize it, I would. I already offered to donate $200 in US, I would just throw money at it when ever I could as well, so it be more then 200 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) All contracts have clauses when its outsourced that part I can tell you. I am sure if enough money was tossed at topps they would sell the IP.

I mean this in the nicest way possible, and only in hope of saving you some heartache (and maybe even some money, depending on your sincerity and enthusiasm level), but I feel it's important that someone being honest with you, here; you really, really, have no idea what you're talking about.

[Smilingfaces]

Thanks Critias for weighing in on all this, could you be a little more specific? You quoted my whole statement including the jokes bud.

[Critias]

Frankly, I think the idea of Dumpshock crowdfunding enough cash to buy the rights to Shadowrun and then doing they're-not-sure-what with it (but maybe give it to Jordan Weissman, I guess?) is just...ridiculous. Ill-thought out, showing no idea how much money would be required, or how to go about it, or if Jordan even wants the IP any more, or what you're going to do if he doesn't, or how it is you imagine books will be produced (and printed and shipped), and I'm sorry but the whole idea is just really absurd from start to finish.

[Cain]

Critias is right. It'd be a huge mess.

I'm no expert on IP, but I can see that Shadowrun is a very diverse property. Off the top of my head, it's not only spawned five and a half editions of a RPG, but four computer games, two card games, two tabletop/board games, dozens of novels, and at least one miniature game. The video game rights were split off a long time ago, but the rest are all jumbled together under one IP.

The likelihood of fans being able to crowdsource enough money to buy them all is not good, so we'd have to separate out the RPG. But then, you get into a big hassle as you try to figure out which is which. Would the novels fall under the RPG? Because the mini game, Shadowrun Duels, had a dedicated series of novels written for it. What about cards? Would the gear and spell cards infringe on the card game IP? Does a boxed set count as a board game, or a tabletop game? These sort of questions keep lawyers employed for years, and you could expect to spend a fortune trying to sort it all out.

And that's just one problem, an easily-forseen one. There's bound to be lots more that crop up.

[Adam]

How many novels came out since catalyst took over? Catalyst as in actualy stamped name to. I don't want to include the germens I believe they somehow have there own IP, to shadowrun.

Last I knew, the german license was sublicensed through IMR / Catalyst.

But I can tell you Harebrain as put out 2 games already while catalyst still cant get their MMO off the ground plus put out a unfinished product, I might add that is just obvious.

Catalyst isn't doing an MMO. Cliffhanger Productions is, licensed from Microsoft.

There are a ton of wrinkles with the Shadowrun IP. A magical grab-bag full of surprises!

[Smilingfaces]

1st off the whole thing to what I said I believe is on page 3. That's where all this spawned from. See that before you start chiming in trying to pick apart an idea that has splintered into other peoples comments rehashing from other peoples comments. I think you will see I wasn't just talking about dumpshock but other forums and media sources to get the word out. I just think it be cool if dumpshock did the petition, grabbing bragging rights "It started in the dumpshock forums first and then went from there" Yea that has bragging rights written all over it.
2nd of all I am talking about the IP as in the material, roleplaying and books again was basically specified.
3rd of all having this conversation with 4 writers whom I would think they would understand how IP works but apparently not. Atleast Cain said" I am no expert" and I can respect that.
4th of all considering ^ I am now convinced maybe this idea has some merit, we have had 2 writers from Posthuman Studios and two from Catalyst, in a couple of days since I first made the statement. Cain you have done some work for catalyst haven't you? Critias was just saying earlier in this thread how -"I just want to point out they've got that -- pretty much exactly that -- over on the Shadowrun Universe forums. I hate their layout so I don't post over there or keep up with it as often as I could/should, but even at a glance, the subforum activity numbers are pretty jarring; "previous Shadowrun editions" has about 600 total comments (with about a half-dozen threads that have seen any activity in all of 2014), "Shadowrun 4th Edition" has about 4,000 (with exactly two posts made any time this calendar year), and "Shadowrun 5th Edition" has going on 17,000."
Just some post count stuff to keep in mind, which might be relevant to the discussion. Maybe it says something about gamers in general, maybe it says something about Dumpshock's attention span for older editions compared to other forums (and what that implies about demographics, I guess"- Critias didn't waste time with that gem considering its on page 1,nothing like a friendly road sign to steer traffic, in a thread about getting more traffic here.
And finally 5th, I guess I'll do some more research into who has what IP, and a few other things. When I have it ill make a thread posting the findings perhaps a poll to see who's interested. I cant say for sure because I haven't got a chance to look into it as much as i'd like its the holidays after all. In the meantime why not comment on how to make dumpshock better.

[Bertramn]

I like the idea in general,
but what we are going to find the greatest consensus about,
in the comments that were made about the idea,
is that we should not start with crowdfunding,
but with the/a project.

If we crowdsource revised Shadowrun rules,
and mayhaps a good writeup for a core book,
we can start crowdfunding that stuff,
for example.

If someone interviews Weisman on the topic,
to get his actual opinion...

Starting with raising the money before we know what to exactly do with it,
and whether or not it will work,
reeks of a disaster in the making.
That is what I think most are trying to say here.