Shadowrun Licensing, Kickstarter? Options

[binarywraith]

The rest of the IP is even more complicated. FASA sold SR and BT to Wizkids, which licensed the rights to Fanpro. Wizkids was then purchased by Topps, who currently holds the IP. Tops licenses the rights to SR and BT to Catalyst, which is the current state of affairs. As has been mentioned, Topps has stuck by Catalyst even through some significant "struggles", which I don't want to go into (you can read it for yourself). Nobody really knows what went down between Topps and Catalyst during that time, but the fact that Catalyst still holds the liscense speaks to their working relationship and the profitability of SR, both of which will make any attempt at acquiring the IP more difficult.

Actually, it's another step more confusing. Wizkids got the Shadowrun rights after FASA ceased business, and licensed them to FanPro in 2001. In 2003, Topps bought out Wizkids, but FanPro kept the SR license until it was offered to InMediaRes in 2007 with the expiration of FanPro's license. They formed the Catalyst Game Labs imprint to make use of those rights, and attempt to change public perception as they'd already had issues with missing street dates on BattleTech products.

From the press release :

"“Bringing onboard the talented people responsible for such successes with Classic BattleTech and Shadowrun was a natural decision,” said Loren L. Coleman, Acquisitions Editor and one of the managing owners of InMediaRes Productions, LLC. “Catalyst Game Labs will quickly demonstrate our dedication to providing high quality products—licensed and original—in a timely manner to the community.”

InMediaRes Productions, LLC, has dedicated itself to immediately addressing recent problems, such as missed release dates. The formation of Catalyst Game Labs, which will focus on operations and production, is a necessary first step."

So yeah, clearly they're making money for Topps, because CGL's management had issues since before their inception as a company, despite most of the FanPro Shadowrun staff coming over to them after FanPro LLC refused a buyout offer from the staff.

This hasn't really changed, with Catalyst still being really, really bad about announcing release dates on things. Hell, of the stuff announced back in 2012 for the 'Year Of Shadowrun' in 2013, half of it hasn't even reached publication by the end of 2014.

http://www.catalystgamelabs.com/2012/12/21...r-of-shadowrun/

[Bertramn]

As far as I can see, a good start would be to ask at Topps when the licensing contract with CGL expires.

Getting control of the license seems far more manageable a task when the contract expires anyway.

[Shemhazai]

As far as I can see, a good start would be to ask at Topps when the licensing contract with CGL expires.

Getting control of the license seems far more manageable a task when the contract expires anyway.

I disagree. Instead, ask if a purchase is even something they would consider and if they could tell you some ballpark amount that would not be a waste of their time. Then consult a few experts as to what they think the property is worth.

And ignore historical dramas that have no bearing whatsoever on your plans.

[Grinder]

I doubt that Topps will break a licensing contract with CGL for a newbie company.

[Cain]

I doubt that Topps will break a licensing contract with CGL for a newbie company.

Break, you're right. Hypothetically speaking, if a newbie company tendered a nice enough offer, it would look more tempting if it was right near when the previous contract was about to expire.

That said, it's still a wild supposition. We don't even know what the terms of the deal is, so we don't know what kind of offer would be more tempting-- let alone what kind of offer would make them gamble on a new and untried company.

[binarywraith]

Honestly, you'd almost have to open the company, come up with your own product, and successfully market it in order to have a track record so that Topps would know they're not risking the IP on an unknown. From what I know of the history, it was likely a very important part of the negotiations for CGL getting the license that they had a major part of the team who were producing it for FanPro.

[nezumi]

Binarywraith is right. Topps isn't just worried about a fat check today. They want to know that their investment will grow. If DumpshockCorp. ™ licenses SR for two years and sinks it, the value of the license drops.

[Shemhazai]

I don't think we're all on the same page. As far as I can tell, people were talking about purchasing the rights to Shadowrun, not being awarded the license to produce the RPG. If you're contemplating trying to win the license, then waiting until near the current contract expiration date will make you too late to the party.

[Grinder]

People? You're the only who still follows that idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Cain]

I don't think we're all on the same page. As far as I can tell, people were talking about purchasing the rights to Shadowrun, not being awarded the license to produce the RPG. If you're contemplating trying to win the license, then waiting until near the current contract expiration date will make you too late to the party.

That's because raising the money to pay for the license would be much more practical than buying the IP outright.

Right now, CGL is offering X cash per year for the license, so in theory, getting the license is just a matter of offering more. Of course, there's a lot more to consider, like risk vs reward, company stability, and so on. However, the theory is that a large enough up-front cost would be enough to persuade them.

But the entire IP? Not only would we need to guess how much the entire IP is worth, we'd need to figure what it costs in relation to their projected plans for it, for the next 5-10 years. Basically, we'd have to make an offer comparable to what they'd earn over the lifetime of Shadowrun, and not only do we have no idea what that is, it's a lot more than a few years licensing fees.

[binarywraith]

As far as getting the license, the hard part's going to be showing them that you're a good investment. Again, this means preferably being able to demonstrate a proven ability to bring a RPG product to market successfully, on time, and with high quality standards.

[Shemhazai]

People? You're the only who still follows that idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Of course that's impossible.

That's because raising the money to pay for the license would be much more practical than buying the IP outright.

Right now, CGL is offering X cash per year for the license, so in theory, getting the license is just a matter of offering more. Of course, there's a lot more to consider, like risk vs reward, company stability, and so on. However, the theory is that a large enough up-front cost would be enough to persuade them.

But the entire IP? Not only would we need to guess how much the entire IP is worth, we'd need to figure what it costs in relation to their projected plans for it, for the next 5-10 years. Basically, we'd have to make an offer comparable to what they'd earn over the lifetime of Shadowrun, and not only do we have no idea what that is, it's a lot more than a few years licensing fees.

If by practical you mean much more affordable, of course. It's not to get CGL out of the picture, but to see if there's a way to increase the operating budget of the RPG line and possibly venture into other products. With the exception of computer games (which appear to be under a different licensing arrangement) and novels, I don't think those things are likely to happen under the current model.

On the positive side, the cost would be offset by the earned revenue. Is Shadowrun a cash cow or a dog? Is TOPPS earning a profit with minimal investment, or just breaking even? If the latter, maybe getting the IP would be more affordable than some people think.

[Jaid]

topps is definitely making money. the question is whether CGL is making money.

considering they'd be fools to continue renewing the license if they weren't making money, the safe bet is that yes, they are making money.

[Sengir]

So yeah, clearly they're making money for Topps

As far as I recall it, the big question after the end of FanPro was not which bidder would win the epic face-off over the license, but if there would be anyone willing to pick up the license. Therefore I doubt that money is the decisive factor, but rather that Topps does not want the license to go stale and CGL is the only reasonable candidate for that. And a fan project which might just collapse tomorrow would be even worse than any troublesome licensee...

[Bertramn]

Am I not up to date on some of the history here?

Why not approach CGL directly?

Theoretically they would have nothing to loose in releasing, say, another 2050-2069 Rulebook,
as they did a while back. Or do they?

[Stahlseele]

Aside from the comingling of funds, the Freelancers and other people not getting paid for their work and subsequently the loss of some of the best talent in the shallow pool that had ever been writing for shadowrun?
The general loss of quality in the writing both in technical as in regards to content, see BOGOTA as the Prime Example?
No, aside from that, you are pretty much up to date i guess.

Why not approach CGL directly? See above.
They are more or less The Enemy by now.
We make exceptions for some people we like.

And seeing how CGL keeps milking the SR license for what it's worth, them saying no to not using the license and letting other people make money with it is pretty much guaranteed i guess.

[Smash]

Forget the license. You'd be better off just replicating the setting, set it somewhere else, like Detroit or LA or something, change some of the iconic names and history and just make it however you want.

[Sendaz]

Forget the license. You'd be better off just replicating the setting, set it somewhere else, like Detroit or LA or something, change some of the iconic names and history and just make it however you want.

Heh. Nezumi has said something similar.


SimulacRun™

[Method]

You know as I was thinking about this thread today it occurred to me: has anyone ever proposed a customer-driven petition to Topps asking them to intervene? As the owners of SR, don't they have a vested interest in ensuring a certain level of quality in SR products? Maybe they could force some quality improvement or increased editorial oversite, or for god's sake some proofreading?

To take it one step further, what if you found a great number of people who purchased SR5 and wanted their money back?

I'm not saying I condone this approach necessarily, but just wondered what people thought about the feasibility?

[Draco18s]

You know as I was thinking about this thread today it occurred to me: has anyone ever proposed a customer-driven petition to Topps asking them to intervene?

Back when War! came out I wrote a letter to both Topps and CGL. I (still) have the delivery confirmation slips on my desk.

[WhiskeyJohnny]

Heh. Nezumi has said something similar.


SimulacRun™

While it would likely not be an ideal outcome, you've at least got a snappy name. It's too bad there's no OGL type arrangement for Shadowrun, what with the apparent retroclone renaissance.

[Smilingfaces]

Wait wasn't that pretty much the idea behind eclipse phase? Different mechanics a few different elements, Shadowrun in Space. Anyways it pretty much looks like some of us are for trying to give the IP to the creators. A few are still figuring out Licensing idea's, but the problem with licensing is three-fold 1. if there is say 2 companies competing over who gets the job they are forced to low bid. Meaning in the end quality can go south cause of biding low, got to watch that overhead. 2nd. The issuer has more creative control with "hey pal, you know someone else will fill your shoes so toe the line" 3rd.You don't own the work your paying off someone else for using there stuff, so again the IP is better then the license.

[Cain]

topps is definitely making money. the question is whether CGL is making money.

considering they'd be fools to continue renewing the license if they weren't making money, the safe bet is that yes, they are making money.

CGL isn't stupid, they wouldn't have fought to keep the license if they didn't have a plan to make money off it. Lots of money.

I can't tell where they're making it off of, though. Yes, they're using up fans for a lot of their product, I suspect they're luring in fans with no writing experience with the promise of being a published RPG writer, and paying them less than market rates. Problem is, I don't think there is a standard market rate for RPG's, so it's hard to tell.

I know the proofreaders aren't getting paid in cash; they're paid in credits, and I can personally verify that I'm missing credits from four years ago. I've heard similar stories from others.

You know as I was thinking about this thread today it occurred to me: has anyone ever proposed a customer-driven petition to Topps asking them to intervene? As the owners of SR, don't they have a vested interest in ensuring a certain level of quality in SR products? Maybe they could force some quality improvement or increased editorial oversite, or for god's sake some proofreading?

To take it one step further, what if you found a great number of people who purchased SR5 and wanted their money back?

I'm not saying I condone this approach necessarily, but just wondered what people thought about the feasibility?

I don't think it'd work.

Topps is a big corporation, and they don't care about products, they care about profitability. If making a big profit comes at the expense of some negative publicity, they'll take that tradeoff. Especially when there's no risk to them directly: if Shadowrun tanks under CGL's watch, Topps can always wash their hands of them and claim they weren't paying attention.

As far as the proofreading goes: I can personally verify that some, if not all, of the mistakes in SR5 were caught by proofreaders. A corrected copy not only exists, it was sent to the editors, and is probably still out there floating in the cloud. Why it didn't get used is a matter of speculation, and I'm really baffled why they refused to use it for the second printing. But anyway, Jason Hardy alluded to this in a blog dated sometime in June, on the Shadowrun Tabletop site-- he said none of this was the proofreader's fault. I have to wonder who's fault it is, though, and why heads didn't roll.

[flowswithdrek]

Problem is, I don't think there is a standard market rate for RPG's, so it's hard to tell.

From my experience there isn’t even a standard rate between game lines within the same company never mind the RPG market as a whole. On average I would say small indie companies seem to pay the best rates. Some companies are open for negotiation some aren’t, some offer royalties some don’t, some pay once the final draft is accepted some pay X amount of months after the product has been published.

[Sengir]

Yes, they're using up fans for a lot of their product, I suspect they're luring in fans with no writing experience with the promise of being a published RPG writer, and paying them less than market rates.

It would be newsworthy if CGL didn't do that, because it would be contrary to what nearly every other RPG publisher does. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Topps is a big corporation, and they don't care about products, they care about profitability. If making a big profit comes at the expense of some negative publicity, they'll take that tradeoff.

I think you are vastly overestimating the importance of P&P here: Whatever CGL pays to Topps will be an afterthought of their 10-million net income, and the controversies during the Year of Chaos would not even rank as a tempest in a teapot, more like those tiny Turkish tea glasses...