Shadowrun Licensing, Kickstarter? Options

[binarywraith]

As far as the proofreading goes: I can personally verify that some, if not all, of the mistakes in SR5 were caught by proofreaders. A corrected copy not only exists, it was sent to the editors, and is probably still out there floating in the cloud. Why it didn't get used is a matter of speculation, and I'm really baffled why they refused to use it for the second printing. But anyway, Jason Hardy alluded to this in a blog dated sometime in June, on the Shadowrun Tabletop site-- he said none of this was the proofreader's fault. I have to wonder who's fault it is, though, and why heads didn't roll.

Part of why I've always assumed the fault was Hardy's, or someone up the exec chain above him. The only reason for them to have not thrown someone under the bus to blame for the issues, really.

As an aside, it's kind of interesting that our commentary on CGL so often resembles Shadowtalk, isn't it...

[Bertramn]

Well... they are a Corp alright. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Anyway,
the problem with just writing an alternate setting, the way I see it is:
I do not want to play something similar, I want to play Shadowrun.
I am a Shadowrun native in RPGs. It is where I started, and it is where I would like to stay.

Eclipse Phase is frickin' awesome, don't get me wrong, and I will be playing it a lot in the future, i hope,
but there is this special urge for Shadowrun, that a similar setting would not be able to satisfy.

Something which would definitely be possible, would be to bring out a rulebook without a setting,
which Pathfinder basically is, as far as I know.

Call it a universal cyberpunk ruleset,
with modular rules for several generations of cyber-stuff, matrix-incarnations and for the addition of fantasy elements.
That way it would be possible to play in the 50s, 70s or a more GitS-like 22nd century, within the 6th world.
The basic rules would be the same though, for all options.

Edit:
If anyone is interested in doing a little Think Tank-ing with me on that topic, pls PM me,
This could be a lot of fun.
The chances of this going anywhere may be one in a million, but it just might work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cain]

It would be newsworthy if CGL didn't do that, because it would be contrary to what nearly every other RPG publisher does. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Not so much. IIRC, back under Mike Mulvihill, Shadowrun had some pretty stringent guidelines on what qualifications they asked of writers. If you were a new Shadowrun writer, even if you were an experienced RPG writer, you had to work with a mentor-- an experienced Shadowrun writer, who helped you get the feel of the world.

And even for other systems, there's still a high bar. Mostly, people break in by submitting a pitch-- an idea, plus a writing sample and a few other things. But breaking into RPG's that way is hard-- I don't think Wizards even accepts unsolicited pitches anymore, nor does White Wolf to my knowledge. Paizo recruits from their fan base, but they start people on cheap adventures, have a ton of oversight, and then you work your way up.

I think you are vastly overestimating the importance of P&P here: Whatever CGL pays to Topps will be an afterthought of their 10-million net income, and the controversies during the Year of Chaos would not even rank as a tempest in a teapot, more like those tiny Turkish tea glasses...

You're right. Although I don't think we disagree-- as long as CGL continues to turn in a profit, I doubt the people at Topps will even take notice.

Part of why I've always assumed the fault was Hardy's, or someone up the exec chain above him. The only reason for them to have not thrown someone under the bus to blame for the issues, really.

As an aside, it's kind of interesting that our commentary on CGL so often resembles Shadowtalk, isn't it...

I honestly don't know what happened. I suspect it's someone up the chain, though.

But... funny thing is, early Dumpshock not only followed shadowtalk, we influenced it. Several people used Dumpshockers as inspiration for published characters-- I got a name drop in Target: Matrix, for example. "Bull: The Best Ork Decker You Never Met!" was inspired by our Bull's character, and he was all over the early shadowtalk. And many other people got mentioned over they years, plus fan ideas like NERPS.

[Sengir]

Not so much. IIRC, back under Mike Mulvihill, Shadowrun had some pretty stringent guidelines on what qualifications they asked of writers. If you were a new Shadowrun writer, even if you were an experienced RPG writer, you had to work with a mentor-- an experienced Shadowrun writer, who helped you get the feel of the world.

That isn't really a counter argument, a publisher can have mentoring and entry requirements and still exploit the enthusiasm or vanity of ascended fanboys (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

In fact, truly unethical ones would offer that and then charge for it...

You're right. Although I don't think we disagree-- as long as CGL continues to turn in a profit, I doubt the people at Topps will even take notice.

We don't disagree in that regard, but I think that the decisive factor for Topps is the fact that somebody keeps the IP alive, getting decent money on top of it is merely a nice bonus. Like towns who rent out vacant real estate for the utility bills and small change, the money is nice to have, but the truly important point is that abandoned buildings without anyone looking after them are a disaster.

Because let's face it, who would want the license for P&P Shadowrun today? If it weren't for CGL, fan projects with zero budget and a good chance to falter at a moment's notice might indeed be the only ones in line for the license.

I honestly don't know what happened. I suspect it's someone up the chain, though.

It always rots from the head...and it's a story I've heard from many proofers.

[Jaid]

depending on cost, i wouldn't be surprised if there were a number of people interested in the shadowrun license, actually.

i mean, i don't necessarily know that people are going to be willing to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars per year for it or anything, but the system is clearly worth something, because people are paying for it. there is a demand for shadowrun products or else there wouldn't be any by this point in time.

[Adarael]

IIRC, Topps (yes, the baseball card company) owns all of the Shadowrun intellectual property. They owned WizKids, who in turn bought the IP from FASA when it went under. Catalyst Game Labs has license from them to produce tabletop gaming products, supplements, and fiction. Possibly also other merch, although it's rare enough that I'm not certain.

The video game rights are completely separate, and are owned by Microsoft and licensed to Harebrained Schemes to produce Shadowrun Returns... although they also had to license the IP from Topps for it.

Confusing, I know, but it's the same situation where CCP (Eve Online) owns all the White Wolf catalog, and Hasbro owns D&D via owning WotC, who bought out TSR. The only way Pathfinder was able to happen was the OGL, which meant the basic mechanics of D&D 3.x were open source and free to build upon, so long as the worldbuilding and copyrighted IP were stripped out. That'll never happen again, as it led to D&D making a monster that has sold at least as well if not better than 4e D&D.

Just to clarify, my understanding is that Jordan Weisman actually BOUGHT the video game rights back from Microsoft. Not just re-licensed his own game, but wholesale bought.

[Draco18s]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/161326...adowrun-returns
Watch the top-most video (the opener) and skip to 1:50
He says he licensed it back and not to get him started on that.

[Adarael]

Yeah, but they also don't pay Microsoft anything for the Shadowrun Returns games. There is zero cut going to MSFT there. So it may be some crazy wierdo deal. That's my understanding, anyway.

[Sendaz]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/161326...adowrun-returns
Watch the top-most video (the opener) and skip to 1:50
He says he licensed it back and not to get him started on that.

I did like the part when they pelted the one guy for the first person shooter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Cain]

That isn't really a counter argument, a publisher can have mentoring and entry requirements and still exploit the enthusiasm or vanity of ascended fanboys (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

In fact, truly unethical ones would offer that and then charge for it...

I've seen a few "fan competitions" that did something similar: you paid an entry fee, and if your submission won, they published it. It still happens in the poetry market: they send out requests for "submissions"; they publish you, and then overcharge you for the book. They know you can't resist buying a copy or two once it's in print.

But I would say that mentoring new writers shows a greater investment in them over just culling fan stuff that looks neat. It also shows that they're more selective in their process, since mentoring requires an investment on the part of the company.

We don't disagree in that regard, but I think that the decisive factor for Topps is the fact that somebody keeps the IP alive, getting decent money on top of it is merely a nice bonus. Like towns who rent out vacant real estate for the utility bills and small change, the money is nice to have, but the truly important point is that abandoned buildings without anyone looking after them are a disaster.

Because let's face it, who would want the license for P&P Shadowrun today? If it weren't for CGL, fan projects with zero budget and a good chance to falter at a moment's notice might indeed be the only ones in line for the license.

Actually, I disagree on part of this.

I don't think Topps cares about Shadowrun at all. Shadowrun is just another property to them, and all that matters is how they can get a profit out of it. Topps has a lot of IP's in their fold, and if they're not making a profit, they'll happily shut down the line and let it collect dust forever. What matters to them is that, instead of collecting dust, the IP is making them some money. If the money weren't there, they'd just shutter it.

So, in theory, a fan project with sufficient backing and resources could make an attractive bid for Shadowrun. Especially if they offered a lot up front, as opposed to part of a questionable revenue stream. Of course, in practice, that's not likely to happen.

[Smilingfaces]

http://www.wipo.int/sme/en/ip_business/lic...g/licensing.htm there see there is a difference IP vrs Licensing I cant tell you what Jordan did to get it but if he got the License and not the IP then the owner is renting it out, kay.

[Cain]

http://www.wipo.int/sme/en/ip_business/lic...g/licensing.htm there see there is a difference IP vrs Licensing I cant tell you what Jordan did to get it but if he got the License and not the IP then the owner is renting it out, kay.

Well, let me try. Bear in mind, this is a very generalized example; I'm definitely not a lawyer, and the specifics can vary.

I'm a writer. I have a published novel, and under the terms of that deal, I own all the rights to my own work. So, the Intellectual Property is mine.

However, a publisher needs some sort of permission to use my work. They can buy the entire IP from me, but I don't want to let go of my baby. So, they get a license to certain rights, which in this case means they can publish it freely and keep a lot of the profits. If we disagree on certain moves, things can get weird, but largely it's all covered in the license deal.

But what if things were to get weirder? For example, I'm working on a movie script for my novel. Since I own my own IP, I can license out the movie rights if I want. But if I do, what happens if they decide they're going to use someone else's script? Things could get messy, so points like that are generally set in the licensing agreement.

Anyway, from what I read, Jordan bought the Shadowrun video game IP outright from Microsoft. Which probably was easy, considering that their game tanked hard-core. If you look over the history, Microsoft got it when they acquired FASA interactive, and mostly wanted the Battletech game rights anyway. It was always a secondary item, at best. And like anyone who lives in Seattle, Jordan must know tons of Microsquish employees, so getting a face to face meeting would have been easy. Heck, I've even met Bill Gates a few times, I was working at the Pacific Science Center for several annual Microsoft parties.

[Smilingfaces]

Cain get factual please I am trying to read what you wrote and its all over the place I cant tell if your serious which it doesn't read like you are it reads like your trying to give an analogy. I am not trying to be rude to ya dude I am just trying to figure out what your talking about is all. It really doesn't sound right "Bear in mind this is a general example" through me through a loop.

[binarywraith]

Smilingfaces, not trying to be offensive here, but is English not your first language? 'Cause I think we may be running into a language barrier and/or a difference in the way laws are assumed to work. Cain's examples are pretty straightforward, at least as far as the very, very complex world of intellectual property, trademark, and copyright law goes.

[Cain]

Intellectual property law is really complex, and it's difficult to cover everything. Still, the basics is like I said: the owner of the IP can do whatever they want with it, but frequently they license certain sub-rights out to other people. For example, the Tolkien estate licensed out the movie rights to The Hobbit, because they couldn't make twelve hours of movie by themselves. However, those rights are sharply limited by the licensing deal-- the moviemakers have no rights to the book, can't do a lot of printed tie-ins, that sort of thing.

So, using me as an example again: when I finished my book, I owned the full rights to it. In order to get published, I had to sign over part of those rights. I still "own" my book, but the publisher gets to decide how things are distributed and sold, that kind of thing-- those are the rights I signed over. In exchange, I get a very small return, in the form of royalties.

Exactly what rights are signed over depends on the contract. Going back to Tolkien, those people apparently worked in a great deal of creative liberty: they're allowed to wander from the main story by quite a bit. Other writers might not allow nearly as much; I hear that J K Rowling is pretty firm that people stay close to the Harry Potter books. It really depends on the specifics of the contract, and that gets into complex laws I'm not qualified to talk about.

[Smilingfaces]

Ok that sounds better, I was wondering if your talking from experience with a real book or if your trying to make into an some kind of an analogy. That's why I quoted what through me off. Anyways if you do get to turn your book into a movie don't get screwed like Clive Barker with Hellraiser.

[apple]

Well, that is not always easy, especially for (no offense) less well known authors for certain sub-genres.

J. K. Rowling surely had a very normal/standard agreement with the first company to publish her book (" The book was submitted to twelve publishing houses, all of which rejected the manuscript"). Only after the surprising huge success JKR was able to receive more generous terms (she received 1500 pound for the first one as pre-payment). So, for Science Fiction => Cyberpunk => Shadowrun usually every author does not really get rich. So, getting screwed over is always a possibility, especially if the publisher is a smaller one (which would be normal for Shadowrun books).

But then again there is epublishing, selfpublishing nowadays.

SYL

[Cochise]

Microsoft still owns the video games IP part of Shadowrun ... if that were no longer the case Jordan would certainly have had the "licensed from Microsoft" note at shadowrun.com removed.

[Bertramn]

Ok that sounds better, I was wondering if your talking from experience with a real book or if your trying to make into an some kind of an analogy. That's why I quoted what through me off. Anyways if you do get to turn your book into a movie don't get screwed like Clive Barker with Hellraiser.

All I have heard is that the book was not as good as the movie in some places. Or do you mean in the money department?

Anyway. I assume the setting and name of Shadowrun are licensed. What about the rules, how does that work?

[Draco18s]

What about the rules, how does that work?

By "rules" I assume you mean "mechanics" and those are not copyrightale. You can take the rules of Shadowrun SRx (whatever version you please) port them wholesale, reskin them, and legally no one can do anything about it.

Mind, they can still try, and if you didn't reskin something (even something as small as "Black IC") you can still get hit pretty bad (and that's even if you win in court).

Trying to make SimulacRun using SR rules is going to be almost impossible.

[Sendaz]

Trying to make SimulacRun using SR rules is going to be almost impossible.

Parody? Am sure we can skewer a few holy cows. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[nezumi]

Am I hearing a market for my Drop Bear Adventure?

Yes, I think I am!!

(Licensing available for reasonable rates.)

[Sendaz]

This isn't the one with the Dikoted CyberZombie Flesh Form Drop Bears is it?

Not falling for that one again......

[Jaid]

Mind, they can still try, and if you didn't reskin something (even something as small as "Black IC") you can still get hit pretty bad (and that's even if you win in court).

IC (and black IC) in particular is likely no longer something you can claim as your own IP. if it was, then shadowrun would probably not be allowed to use it, because they certainly were not the first people to come up with the idea.

or, at the very least, you can almost defintely use ICE, which is pronounced exactly the same way anyways. though i could've swore i don't remember the acronym having an E on the end in various other books i've read.

though of course, i am not an IP lawyer, so take what i say with a grain of salt (better yet, if you're actually writing a new RPG, don't take it at all and just ask an IP lawyer for advice instead) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sengir]

Cain get factual please I am trying to read what you wrote and its all over the place I cant tell if your serious which it doesn't read like you are it reads like your trying to give an analogy. I am not trying to be rude to ya dude I am just trying to figure out what your talking about is all.

The irony is palpable...