Shadowrun Dice Mechanic, with a Poll! Options

[Bertramn]

After I read at some places in this forum, that some posters consider the d6 to be intrinsically tied to Shadowrun, I wanted to poll how sizable of a majority that is, if it is a majority at all.

Would you accept a different Dice Mechanic, if it worked better/faster/stronger than multiple d6 does?

I think Shadowrun is well enough defined through an extremely unique and zany setting,
and restricting it to a possibly sub-par game-mechanic out of nostalgia is a bad move in my opinion,
so I vote for 'Whatever, man!', but let me see your opinions.

[Cain]

Shadowrun is tied to the d6. It was a deliberate design choice as I recall, they were trying to distance themselves from the dice rainbow that is/was D&D. That was around the time when a unified dice mechanic started to become popular-- even D&D went that way eventually.

That said, some things you don't want to mess with. If they tried making D&D without multiple dice, or even relying on something other than the d20, they'd have a fan rebellion. In fact, there are several D&D ports out there, such as Dungeon World: good systems, but they don't scratch the same itch as D&D. Shadowrun has a few ports that I'm aware of-- a few for Savage Worlds, and the Sixth World project for FATE-- but they're in no danger of overtaking Shadowrun.

[Mach_Ten]

I had a shot at Porting the SR meat onto the nWoD bones and dice mechanics..

Hooo boy, it's nice to throw down with THAT many D10's .. but then getting 20+ hits on a success test and then rolling Nada for drain resist .. was a weird experience

Sticking to D6's and SR3 mechanics to avoid the bloat from now on (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Bertramn]

But just to make sure, am I going right in the assumption that you would accept a different mechanic (like a d100 mechanic, like in Eclipse Phase), Mach_ten, and that you, Cain, want d6 in general, but would accept either of the incarnations?

[Cain]

But just to make sure, am I going right in the assumption that you would accept a different mechanic (like a d100 mechanic, like in Eclipse Phase), Mach_ten, and that you, Cain, want d6 in general, but would accept either of the incarnations?

Sorta.

The important thing is the feel. Shadowrun wouldn't feel right without d6's, but that's not the only requirement. For example, if you converted it to WEG's d6 system, where you total your dice together? That wouldn't feel right either. Or switched it to GURPS, you only roll 3d6 for skill tests there. I'm not opposed to a well-designed fixed TN system, but it has to capture the feel of early Shadowrun.

[Mach_Ten]

But just to make sure, am I going right in the assumption that you would accept a different mechanic (like a d100 mechanic, like in Eclipse Phase), Mach_ten, and that you, Cain, want d6 in general, but would accept either of the incarnations?

D6 is SR to me,

and what the mechanic looks like or how it works I'm not so involved in worrying about other than,

I find SR3 easier to manage dice pools at the table
and SR4 dice pools MUCH easier when playing PbP on here ... with invisible castle etal.
massive 20-30 dice pools with real dice and exploding 6's etc. maaan .. it's fun once ! ... and then ..

We played "Zombier dice" today

if I were to go for a mechanic I'd have purpose build dice ... with three distinct numerations.
1) Physical
2) Mental
3) Combat

Zombie dice have difficulties built into them (red, amber, green dice) with more of one action ... so making a difficult combat shot ? roll "skill #" Red dice

It's somethingf I'm looking into

[binarywraith]

Give me 3e D6's and variable target numbers any day. So much easier to control bloat while remaining a uniquely Shadowrun resolution mechanic.

[Jaid]

guess that explains why i don't hear much about the d8 shadowrun system from one of the supplementals (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Smash]

I don't really care as long as it seems to deliver expected outcomes. D20 is too simple. I doubt that could work.

3rd ed with moving pools AND target numbers just seems too complex and if you're not careful it destroys balance (see smartlinks/trolls with extra reach).

Honestly I like d6 pools, I just think we need less modifiers. and perhaps smaller pools

[nezumi]

It does need to have a probability curve. That means multiple dice. The shifting number of dice is really ideal, because it lets you flatten or squish your curve to properly reflect the skill of the character. d6s are nice because people have them, and normally lots of them. Yes, d10s and d20s give nicer granularity, and at least delay the 6=7 problem, but as a player, especially a new player, I appreciate not having to plunk down another $15 for a huge set of dice I won't use for anything else.

[Sendaz]

Wow that takes me back, though to be fair it more revolves around 1-7 moreso than a true d8

For those who did not get to see the old Shadowrun Supplementals...

Why Eight-Sided Dice?

Don’t get me wrong, using six-sided dice to play Shadowrunworks just fine. However, there’s one little statistical hang-upthat comes into play regarding Shadowrun’s Rule of Six.Because of the Rule of Six, the chances of succeedingwhether the target number is a six or a seven are the same. Theodds of rolling a 6 on a six-sided die is one in six. Using theRule of Six, the odds of rolling a 7 is one in six, because the player must first roll a 6 and then roll a 1. The odds of rolling a1 or better on a six-sided die is 100%.

The Twist

When using eight-sided die for Shadowrun, treat any 8 as a 0. I.E., treat the die as if it is numbered 0-7, substituting 0s for 8s.
By using an eight-sided die that is numbered 0-7 andchanging the Rule of Six to the Rule of Seven, theaforementioned statistical hang-up is eliminated.
If a character needs to roll an 8 to succeed, and one of his dice comes up a 7,his follow up roll might be a 0. Now every negative modifier (increase to the target number) counts.

What’s the Downside?

Aside from spending money to buy more dice, I haven’tfound one. And I’ve thoroughly playtested this with my group.
The odds of success for any given target number generated by using eight-sided dice numbered 0-7 are almost the same as the odds of success generated by using six-sided dice numbered1-6. For some target numbers the odds are a little bit better, for some, a little bit worse.
But generally the play of the game changes very little (except for those players who have been takingadvantage of the quirk of the Rule of Six).Using eight-sided dice numbered 0-7 for initiative createsa little more variance. But since everyone is using the samedice, the quick are still quick, and the slow are still.. well.. slow.

Making Dice Rolls

As with the standard Shadowrun rules, the gamemaster will provide the player with a target number against which he willmake a dice roll. The player rolls the indicated number of diceand then compares each die result individually to the targetnumber. Each individual die that scores equal to or greater thanthe target number is considered a success. The more dice thatscore successes, the better the result.


Target Numbers

The gamemaster determines the target number necessaryfor success in a test normally. See p. 92 of the Skills section for a list of target numbers based on the difficulty of the activity. No target number can be less than 1. If modifiers reducethe target number below 1, consider the target number a 1 for purposes of making tests.

Modifiers

Apply modifiers to the Target Number per the rules.

Rule of Zero

Any time a die roll result comes up a 0 in a test, that die is an automatic failure, no matter what the target number.
But the test can still succeed as long as the other dice succeed.
If all the dice rolled for a test come up 0s, it means that thecharacter has made a disastrous mistake.
Use the Rule of Zero when the rules refer to Shadowrun’s Rule of One.

Rule of Seven

The Rule of Seven allows tests to succeed against targetnumbers greater than 7. When making a test against a targetnumber greater than 7, the player may re-roll any dice that comesup a 7 and then add the new result to the 7. The player can re-roll additional 7s if the current die result total is still less thanthe target number.The Rule of Seven does not apply to initiative tests.

Optional House Rules

Target Numbers

No target number can be greater than 21. If modifiersincrease the target number above 21, consider the task to beimpossible.

Rule of Seven

Do apply the Rule of Seven to one initiative die. If a player is rolling only one die for initiative, than the Rule of Seven isapplied to that die. If a player is rolling multiple dice for initiative, then apply the Rule of Seven to one odd colored die.

So it keeps close to the d6 theme and corrects for the oddity that a TN of 7 had.

[Nawara]

I wasn't sure how to vote, because I think Shadowrun needs to have lots of d6s, and you need to look for successes. I don't want anything that isn't that.

"I do not care about the mechanic, as long as I roll a handful of d6" opens the door for WEG-style adding, which I don't want. So it needed to be one of the other two. I went with "multiple d6 as from 4th Edition onward" because a fixed target number has two serious advantages:

1.) As Smash mentioned, being able to change the target number makes the system more complicated and opens new doors for broken mechanics.
2.) You can buy a bunch of black d6s and color in the 2s, 3s, and 4s with a black Sharpie (and the 1s with a different color). That makes reading large pools about 500% easier.

[Cain]

1.) As Smash mentioned, being able to change the target number makes the system more complicated and opens new doors for broken mechanics.

Theoretically, yes. In practice, it depends on how solid the rest of the system is.

In SR1-3, while it wasn't hard to change the TN up or down, getting more dice was more difficult. You had your Combat pool and the like, but those were very limited, and spending them early could leave you vulnerable later on. As a result, it worked overall.

Starting with 4.0, even though the TN was fixed, it was trivial to break the system by getting extra dice. When you're rolling 20+ dice against a fixed TN, things just swing too far in the player's favor.

Fixed TN can work, but you need to consider a lot more than just the dice mechanic. You need to consider how everything interacts.

2.) You can buy a bunch of black d6s and color in the 2s, 3s, and 4s with a black Sharpie (and the 1s with a different color). That makes reading large pools about 500% easier.

I took a couple blocks of white dice and use white-out on the non-needed numbers. It helped some, but when you need that many dice, counting them is still a chore.

[Isath]

While I like what SR4 did, I do also like something alongside the d6 system (the one used for Star Wars back then).

What I would by far prefer however, is a system with only a small amount of dice, like 1 d10 or maybe d100. Sure, I know, some people get off on needing bucketloads of dice (including some SR developers), but I just don't; It's just not an elegant system.

If SR is true to the bucket, then I really like the step of having a fixed target of 5 and mali to the pool as measure of difficulty. With a System, like Cyberpunk2020 had it or maybe Eclipse Phase does, difficulty has to be adapted by targetnumber.

As the poll wants me to prefer systems with multiple dice I did not vote.

[Bertramn]

The 'Whatever works' was kinda intended for everything not currently in use, everything included, and the 'handful of d6' was kinda intended for if you would accept either fixed TN or variable TN. Guess I am not very good at this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

Seriously, I love the shit out of the Eclipse Phase mechanic.
I have never seen d100 so elegant.

Throw d100 under your skill.

A pair is a critical, either success, or failure. -> Your chance to fail critically is higher if your skill is lower.

Margin of Success: If you want to to f.e. kick a grenade away, and kick it into a ventilation shaft at the end of the hall,
you have to archieve a margin of success on your test (20 or 30 under your skill), to get it into the shaft,
If you roll below your skill, but over the margin, you kick it away, but miss the shaft.

Challenge between two parties: Both roll beneath their skill, the higher rolled number wins

[Isath]

It is quite elegant and very lovable indeed.

I guess I did not quite get your "catch all others" category, it seemed too much like the other ones, themed for the use of many dice. I'll pick that one now though.

[binarywraith]

Theoretically, yes. In practice, it depends on how solid the rest of the system is.

In SR1-3, while it wasn't hard to change the TN up or down, getting more dice was more difficult. You had your Combat pool and the like, but those were very limited, and spending them early could leave you vulnerable later on. As a result, it worked overall.

Starting with 4.0, even though the TN was fixed, it was trivial to break the system by getting extra dice. When you're rolling 20+ dice against a fixed TN, things just swing too far in the player's favor.

Fixed TN can work, but you need to consider a lot more than just the dice mechanic. You need to consider how everything interacts.

That is the benefit of SR3, specifically for combat. It is very easy to run a high-modifier cinematic combat in that system as a GM. Situational modifiers make all the difference to the players' minds, and encourage them to do stuff to make themselves fully involved in the scenes more often when you can give them that little bit of Pavlovian reinforcement with a situational bonus.

[Draco18s]

I'm going to have to go with the catch-all because while multi-d6 does indeed feel uniquely Shadowrun, I'd really rather try and find a better system.

And honestly, the ones that exist across several games, very few of them strike me as being both quick to handle at the table and also balanced. There are some systems out there, like Dogs in the Vineyard that feel very cinematic, but have issues beyond how it rolls (Dogs has a problem of having no rules or guidelines on buying / owning equipment which is only responsible for 75% of your dice!). Also late-stage combat being fairly dull on account of having gained all the dice you can gain and having to deal with what's left.

[Stahlseele]

i like the SR3 system better.

'any kind of discussion of randomness ALWAYS WILL EQUATE to being able to critically hit a mech's reactor by firing a micro beam laser while facing 80 degrees to the side, shooting the ground, which would cause a random explosion which would randomly crit his entire team's reactors which would randomly cause the server itself to explode which would randomly generate a strange quark which would randomly hit the earth and randomly randomness randomfuck the shit fuck random!'

[Doc Byte]

I love OpenD6, yet I'm not sure, if I'd like an OpenD6 Shadowrun edition. I think I'd stick with the dice mechanic I've used the last two decades. Perhaps there are better systems, but they'd simply don't feel like Shadowrun. Maybe I'm to old for something totally new. At least concerning Shadowrun.

[Phatpug]

while i am not fixed on the d6 system, i am fixed on the sr mechanic of skill and attributes directly effecting the dice thrown. i don't like skills and/or attributes just giving modifiers. the systems for savage worlds and serenity are similar, where as your skill improves you throw bigger dice instead of more dice, with some adjustments could work for sr.

*sorry for the all lowercase. i'm typing one handed at work.

[nezumi]

where as your skill improves you throw bigger dice instead of more dice,

Serenity is literally one of the worst dice systems I have ever seen. The more skilled you are, the less dependable your skill is, as the statistical variability climbs as well. It is, literally, the reverse of a good system.

Hypothetically, you could reverse it, where you need to roll below the TN and higher skill gives you a lower die, but you're still dealing with the flat curve, and there's no space for long-shot tests.

[Phatpug]

How so? If the target number is 4 how is a d12 worse than a d6?

[Stahlseele]

If the TN rises(as i assume) as well, you have more chances to roll below than above.
It makes the easier skill checks trivially easy and does not help as much with the harder stuff.

[Cain]

Serenity is literally one of the worst dice systems I have ever seen. The more skilled you are, the less dependable your skill is, as the statistical variability climbs as well. It is, literally, the reverse of a good system.

Hypothetically, you could reverse it, where you need to roll below the TN and higher skill gives you a lower die, but you're still dealing with the flat curve, and there's no space for long-shot tests.

Are you talking about the original Serenity game, or the new one?

The old one was really irritating. I've heard the new one is much better, although I haven't tried it personally. I understand it's basically Cortex Plus, which is a good story system.

As for scaling dice sizes, that can work-- Savage Worlds uses that system to good effect. But it also feels totally different than Shadowrun, so it's not a good choice for conversion.