Edition Discussion, Be Specific. Be Constructive. Options

[Bertramn]

The dice penalties are extreme book-keeping though.
It takes a while to calculate stuff like that, stuff like Noise and such, which is why I am of the opinion that dropping that stuff would be wise.
The Matrix should not be too simulationist.
It was a good thing that ECM and ECCM got dropped for the most part in 4th Edition, for example.

How about we say that all matrix attribtues of your cyber-deck are halved if you hack via Wireless?
That keeps it nice and easy, while using the Limit Mechanic.
Hacking all the stuff is still possible, but a lot more difficult.

[Sengir]

But your argument is an INGAME Argument

And this isn't?

No, not at all, because it does not make any sense at all !
The WiFi makes the Laser more effective (adds a +1 Bonus ) so it makes somthing that works at the Speed of Light better

[Sengir]

But, I think, if a device is connected to the Matrix, it should have an icon in the Matrix, right?

The way I read the section on matrix perception, you only listen for wireless traffic from devices around you. So the commlink shows up, stuff that is wired to it does not.

The rules are a bit unclear though, for example we have this on page 234: "A device in the Matrix is any wireless device"

[Draco18s]

I don't think my main problem with SR5 is that it has big rules problems. SR4 has some as well, not necessarily the same but probably as many.
My main problem is that it doesn't solve many of the problem I had with SR4, and when it tries to do, it doesn't do it the way I'd have wanted or done.

Quite. Reminds me of how I felt about D&D 4E: all this hype about how things that sounded really good ("you can crit zombies and other undead now" "zombie dogs that latch onto you and debuff you, even after they're dead" "no more 'save or die' effects: you'll get multiple saves and failing causing incremental status effects") but which ultimately was a rotting pile of garbage (there was a rogue power that was better if it missed: guaranteed 1 round of combat advantage, because it wore off at the end of the rogue's next turn. If it hit, it was "save to end" which meant it could go away at the beginning of the creature's turn 55% of the time!).

SR5 does a lot of the same stuff. "Hackers now have to be frontline" (unless they connect to the host from China, and now have a noise penalty of 0 due to "same host" rules: switching hosts is an action that requires no marks). Gear encourages you to enable the wireless, making you vulnerable to hackers (bullshit bonuses that few people would bother with). Limits that cap how well you can perform (never makes a difference, except when it does, at which point its a devastating limitation*).

*I was under the impression that gear would have lower limits than natural ability. Sure, you've got all of the muscle control in the world and can pinpoint snipe a fly at 100 yards from the hip. You still using a Saturday night special. But no, even the shittiest accuracy guns have limits that are higher than most runners' natural, and the things that didn't need limits to hamper ability (because generally they were generally hard to "do well at", cough charisma cough, unless you hyperspecialized anyway) have the harshest ones.

[Bogert]

The way I read the section on matrix perception, you only listen for wireless traffic from devices around you. So the commlink shows up, stuff that is wired to it does not.

I don't think so. Looking at "Virtual Visions" on 217, we've got stuff like:

"This virtual plain is lit with the glow of the icon of your commlink (or deck) and other icons around you, one for each device and persona connected to the Matrix." and later, "Additionally, the farther away devices are from you in the real world, the dimmer their icons are in the Matrix; this is partly because your commlink figures the farther ones aren’t as interesting to you, but mostly because the connection is a bit slower due to the distance."

My read on this is that you're not just monitoring local wireless traffic.

Then, in "Matrix Perception" on 235, they say:

"The Matrix has a lot of stuff in it. Cars, blenders, light switches, advertising RFIDs, hosts, and everything wireless and/or electronic."

That "and/or" there, to me that suggests that electronic stuff that isn't wireless can be on the Matrix, and have an icon.

The rules are a bit unclear though, for example we have this on page 234: "A device in the Matrix is any wireless device"

Yep, it's definitely ambiguous. But, from what we have seen, I'm comfortable that my interpretation is reasonably well supported by the text.

So, to get back to the initial point of disagreement, I'm personally happy saying that "Wireless" bonuses are really Matrix connection bonuses.

Well, except for the ones that are basically just restatements of the benefits of having a DNI. (Extendable baton, forearm snap blades, eject clip, etc.) Huh, actually, the air tank makes sense under this latter framework, the stuff described under "Wireless" is perfectly reasonable as just a DNI benefit.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, except for the ones that are basically just restatements of the benefits of having a DNI. (Extendable baton, forearm snap blades, eject clip, etc.) Huh, actually, the air tank makes sense under this latter framework, the stuff described under "Wireless" is perfectly reasonable as just a DNI benefit.

I would really like an explanation on how an Air Tank used for Diving is going to be accessing the Matrix... Like at all? And why do you need it on the Matrix to tell you what levels the tank capacity is currently at. What ever happened to the attached dial that shows such information? It goes back to the Bonuses being crap. *shrug*

The problem is that it is NOT a DNI bonus but a Matrix Access Penalty, meant to somehow induce you to put your stuff at risk for absolutely no reason whatsoever. This is the crux of the issues that most have with them.

[Bogert]

I would really like an explanation on how an Air Tank used for Diving is going to be accessing the Matrix... Like at all?

Ah, sorry about the confusion. What I was trying to say is that the Internal Air Tank wireless bonus makes sense as a DNI bonus.

See, I think Neurosis got confused partway through writing the Wireless bonuses. So, while most of them are Matrix connectivity bonuses (as they are described in other parts of the book), a few of them are really just describing the benefits of connecting to the device using a DNI (by whatever means).

I think the Internal Air Tank is best understood using the latter framework. It shouldn't require any kind of Matrix connection at all, but if you connect to it using a DNI of any kind, you should get the listed benefit.

And why do you need it on the Matrix to tell you what levels the tank capacity is currently at. What ever happened to the attached dial that shows such information?

Well, if you read the description, here's what it says:
"Wireless: Activating or de-activating the tank is a Free Action. You’re always aware of the tank’s exact air level and purity."

That doesn't suggest to me you need to have the bonus in order to check the contents of the tank. It seems pretty clear that they're just describing a DNI benefit, that's what that 'always aware' is about.

(Also, side point, since this is an Internal Air Tank, I'm not sure how an "attached dial" would be visible.)

It goes back to the Bonuses being crap. *shrug*

Yeah, Neurosis really fucked up on the whole Wireless vs. DNI thing, very disappointing.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

(Also, side point, since this is an Internal Air Tank, I'm not sure how an "attached dial" would be visible.)

Good Point... They have always been accessible via DNI... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I was obviously thinking Scuba Diving Tank. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[carmachu]

Yes: "These benefits only apply when the item’s wireless mode is on" (p. 421).

No wireless (and thus exposure to Neo tricks), no bonus. That's the entire point of this idea, and the reason why it can't be fixed.

And thats generally the problem people have after serveral editions of bonues without wireless. And its one of the reasons more then a few people hate it.

[Glyph]

Well, except for the ones that are basically just restatements of the benefits of having a DNI. (Extendable baton, forearm snap blades, eject clip, etc.) Huh, actually, the air tank makes sense under this latter framework, the stuff described under "Wireless" is perfectly reasonable as just a DNI benefit.

Those are pretty much the ones that people have the problems with. Wireless bonuses would be fine if they were limited to communications and things that would logically benefit from being connected to the database of the Matrix (such as the autopicker being able to access lock blueprints). Although for the smartlink, I would prefer for users to be able to get the full base functionality (a bonus to hit and to your gun's accuracy), and have the wired bonuses be things like lower penalties for medium or higher range, or the ability to use indirect fire or trigger a gun remotely.


The dual trouble with bricking is that it is actually pretty difficult to do, but the consequences can be crippling and devastating to street samurai. That is a lot of potential resentment on both sides. The decker feels that his job has been made tougher (overwatch score, etc.) and not really ameliorated by a barely-effective "attack", while he is now stuck babysitting the other characters against Matrix attacks. The street samurai, on the other hand, feels like he is stuck between gimped gear and leaving himself open to potential attacks that could cripple his 'ware - it is like he has to carry the idiot ball, or be penalized. The adept, meanwhile, is laughing - until he runs into background count, and suddenly goes from superhuman, to powerless.

That is the most frustrating thing about SR5. They gave a lot of things an overall power boost, but then nerfed things in unfun and tedious ways. And these tend to be flat penalties, so they only encourage powergaming. If you are going to have 3 less dice most of the time, you will feel it a lot more if your starting dice pool is 10 instead of 17.

[nezumi]

What??? really???

I still say to my mage that they can't pass through living things.

Did they remove the part? Or did they explicitely tells otherwise?

And why removing that by the way?

(ok that has nothing to do with the subject, I admit)

I don't think it was explicit, except that in SR1, it explicitly says you can't move through living things, and in SR3 it doesn't say anything about that at all. That's also why they introduced the new dual-natured ivy in one of the books (can't remember which) that would block astral critters, or the other ones that would scream when something passed through them.

They probably changed it because of the sheer amoutn of life that normally floats around just in the air. All of a sudden a cloud of thrips is an impenetrable barrier, not to mention that bacteria and such are literally everywhere, alive, and would freeze you permanently in place.

[Draco18s]

Personally I think the stuff like the awakened algae that glows when an astral form passes through it is brilliant. I don't know if that's canon or something my GM made up, but it is really flavorful and makes a neat kind of security. Sure: they can't stop someone from astrally projecting through the wall, but they'll know about it.

[Cochise]

I don't think it was explicit, except that in SR1, it explicitly says you can't move through living things, and in SR3 it doesn't say anything about that at all.

The core rules of SR3 certainly had something to say on that. There are explicit rules how an astrally inactive being is able to notice that the astral body of a projecting magician just passed through the former. Not much denying there that living matter is being passed through. By implication the previous restrictions of SR1 and SR2 where astral bodies were not able to pass through living matter like wood was removed with the exception of Earth itself ... which had different but explicit rules as well.

[sk8bcn]

The core rules of SR3 certainly had something to say on that. There are explicit rules how an astrally inactive being is able to notice that the astral body of a projecting magician just passed through the former. Not much denying there that living matter is being passed through. By implication the previous restrictions of SR1 and SR2 where astral bodies were not able to pass through living matter like wood was removed with the exception of Earth itself ... which had different but explicit rules as well.

So Earth is actually astrally active and that makes them impossible to pass through. Ok. Nezumi's point is crystal clear like yours.

[Medicineman]

So Earth is actually astrally active and that makes them impossible to pass through. Ok. Nezumi's point is crystal clear like yours.

that was explicitely in SR2
the Change came in SR3 when mages could astarally go into the Earth (albeit very slowly and there was a big chance of loosing Orientation)
Since SR3 people could notice Astral beeings passing through them ( well, If I were an astral mage I wouldn't be so stupid though because if I would spy on people astrally I wouldn't want them to notice me ! )

with an unnoticed astral Dance
Medicineman

[Shev]

Hm? What are you saying exactly?

I'm saying that if I'm comparing the numbers 1, 6, and 30, it is incorrect to say that 6 is closer to 30 than to 1, even though 1 to 6 is a sixfold increase and 6 to 30 is "only" a fivefold increase.


The difference between the arrow and knife is 75 m/s. The difference between the arrow and the bullet is a whopping 250m/s. The speeds of the arrow and the knife are much closer to each other than the arrow and the bullet.

[Bogert]

I'm saying that if I'm comparing the numbers 1, 6, and 30, it is incorrect to say that 6 is closer to 30 than to 1, even though 1 to 6 is a sixfold increase and 6 to 30 is "only" a fivefold increase.


The difference between the arrow and knife is 75 m/s. The difference between the arrow and the bullet is a whopping 250m/s. The speeds of the arrow and the knife are much closer to each other than the arrow and the bullet.

When reasoning by analogy, you tend to use multiples, not arithmetic differences.

Here's the kind of statement that makes sense under your proposed framework:
"NASCAR is for chumps. Comparing Formula 1 to stock car racing is like comparing the Kentucky Derby to a Sunday stroll."

See, Formula 1 cars top out at about 240 mph, while stock cars top out at 200 mph. A 40 mph arithmetic difference is about the same as the arithmetic difference between a thoroughbred's racing speed (~45 mph) and a walk (3-4 mph). So, that comparison is kosher, right?

[Sendaz]

Horse is not Kosher.

Tasty, but not Kosher.

Sorry couldn't resist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Shev]

When reasoning by analogy, you tend to use multiples, not arithmetic differences.

Here's the kind of statement that makes sense under your proposed framework:
"NASCAR is for chumps. Comparing Formula 1 to stock car racing is like comparing horse races to a Sunday stroll."

See, Formula 1 cars top out at about 240 mph, while stock cars top out at 200 mph. A 40 mph arithmetic difference is about the same as the arithmetic difference between a thoroughbred's top speed and a walk. So, that comparison is kosher, right?

No, because now you're comparing 4 things split into 2 groups of 2.

Basically, you said that a horse race is comparable to Formula 1 racing because a sunday stroll at 4 mph is 10 times slower than a horse race, while the horse race is "only" 6 times slower than Forumula 1. Obviously this is wrong: horses at any speed are much closer to each other than to race cars. The horse at full gallop and at sunday stroll have more in common than the horse at full gallop and a racecar.

[Bogert]

Obviously this is wrong...

Obviously? We're arguing about whether arithmetic differences or multiples are more common when reasoning by analogy, I don't think there's anything obvious about it.

But, as a practical matter, I think people don't tend to use analogies the way you think they do. They generally act as ratios.

A is to B as B is to C.

That suggests that A, B, and C form a geometric sequence, not an arithmetic one. So, 1, 3, 9; not 1, 3, 5.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Obviously? We're arguing about whether arithmetic differences or multiples are more common when reasoning by analogy, I don't think there's anything obvious about it.

But, as a practical matter, I think people don't tend to use analogies the way you think they do. They generally act as ratios.

A is to B as B is to C.

That suggests that A, B, and C form a geometric sequence, not an arithmetic one. So, 1, 3, 9; not 1, 3, 5.

Who is "People?"

[Bogert]

Who is "People?"

I guess, English speakers that have written analogies that I've read? I mean, I could be wrong on this, but analogizing by multiples does look like the more common version. Even the nomenclature looks like ratios.

A:B -> Can be read as the ratio of A to B, or it can be read as "A is to B"

Like, people say that 4k is to HD as HD was to standard definition. They don't mean that the arithmetic difference is the same, they mean that in each case you've got essentially a doubling of the vertical and horizontal resolution.

[Cochise]

So Earth is actually astrally active and that makes them impossible to pass through.

As usual it's a matter of detail. Earth in SR3 is a special form of dual natured entity. Unlike other astrally active entities it can be passed through

Ok. Nezumi's point is crystal clear like yours.

Nezumi's assessment as far as the "why" behind the change for SR3 is concerned certainly isn't totally incorrect but he was incorrect about SR3 not stating anything on the matter.

There's even more to it than what he explained: SR3 also tried to solidify the separated planes concept. The SR1 and SR2 rules on "living matter" not being passable for pure astral entities didn't mesh to well with that idea because the living matter wasn't required to actually be astrally active to cause it stopping effect. Baseline was that Earth itself, its natural surface structures and any form of organic matter that wasn't heavily processed created that effect. That even lead to discussions whether or not it was possible to trap a projecting mage in a natural stone cave by closing a handcrafted, wooden door attached to the cave's entrance.

SR3 did away with that ...

[Link]

Who is "People?"

Soylent Green of course.

[Link]

On that note, wasn't there some kind of TacNet in 3rd Edition?

Fields of Fire in second ed introduced Battle-Tac and Small unit tactics skill which was revised in Cannon Companion with additional material in Matrix.