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> Run Payout, Extracted from Edition Discussion
apple
post Dec 30 2014, 09:02 PM
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QUOTE (Mantis @ Dec 30 2014, 12:30 PM) *
For me, 5th ed was the version that had a ton of good ideas hampered by poor implementation.


Another example: runner payment. I always advocated for some guidelines on how to pay runners, especially if you are a new GM and have no idea if 5000 or 50 000¥ are ok for the group and run. We got precognition Johnson payment rules. Even basic house rules (like the one from AAS) were far better.

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Cain
post Dec 30 2014, 09:13 PM
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QUOTE (apple @ Dec 30 2014, 01:02 PM) *
Another example: runner payment. I always advocated for some guidelines on how to pay runners, especially if you are a new GM and have no idea if 5000 or 50 000¥ are ok for the group and run. We got precognition Johnson payment rules. Even basic house rules (like the one from AAS) were far better.

Runner payment's always been a tricky thing, though. Even though deltaware has been held out as the end goal for cybered characters ever since SR1, I've only seen one PC ever actually get it in game, and that only because I have it to him at a steep discount. For the most part. characters who start with cyber typically never upgrade-- what they start with is usually what the end with.

One thing that would help is actual upgrading rules, though. In SR5, you can't upgrade; you have to remove the old and put in the new, with no discounts. I'm pretty sure that's true for several editions, although I'm not going to look it up right now. If you can simply pay the difference, you make it easier to go from Wired-2 to Wired 3, and make upgrading cyber much more feasable.
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apple
post Dec 30 2014, 09:37 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Dec 30 2014, 04:13 PM) *
Runner payment's always been a tricky thing, though.


Sure, but after almost 2 decades of running and mastering I know that there a certain houserules out there which simply worked fine in a wide range of groups, settings etc. I am more talking about some good guidelines for new gamemasters, not precog-payments like in SR5.

QUOTE
that's true for several editions


Indeed, no edition had upgrade rules (something I am missing, at least for the same quality grade).

SYL
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Bertramn
post Dec 31 2014, 10:02 AM
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I think the payment has gone down somewhat too,
which makes Wired Reflexes appear much more expensive.

In Silver Angel the adventure book says you can give out up to 100.000 Nuyen per player for the run for example.
50.000 before, 35.000 after, and up to 15.000 if the players haggle.
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Cain
post Dec 31 2014, 10:54 AM
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QUOTE (Bertramn @ Dec 31 2014, 02:02 AM) *
I think the payment has gone down somewhat too,
which makes Wired Reflexes appear much more expensive.

In Silver Angel the adventure book says you can give out up to 100.000 Nuyen per player for the run for example.
50.000 before, 35.000 after, and up to 15.000 if the players haggle.

While that's true, that payout was unusual, and the absolute price difference was greater. Wired 3 cost 500,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , so the difference was 335,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . Even with a higher payout per adventure, it would take a while to save up for a base model upgrade, and a delta upgrade was basically out of the question.
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binarywraith
post Dec 31 2014, 11:58 AM
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Generally that was something I saw solved in-game by having gear and access to high-end cyberdocs be payouts for appropriately nasty runs for fixers the team trusts. Doesn't much help for Missions and the like, which are pure RAW, though.

I don't think Shadowrun's ever managed to get the payout per run numbers right. It's difficult to find a good balance that lets Sammies, Riggers, and Deckers get meaningful upgrades while still keeping the hardscrabble roots of the 'punk' in cyberpunk.
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Cain
post Dec 31 2014, 11:58 PM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Dec 31 2014, 03:58 AM) *
Generally that was something I saw solved in-game by having gear and access to high-end cyberdocs be payouts for appropriately nasty runs for fixers the team trusts. Doesn't much help for Missions and the like, which are pure RAW, though.

I don't think Shadowrun's ever managed to get the payout per run numbers right. It's difficult to find a good balance that lets Sammies, Riggers, and Deckers get meaningful upgrades while still keeping the hardscrabble roots of the 'punk' in cyberpunk.

Game itself, no. I've used the low-cash, high-gear games to good effect in the past, that can work. But that's very much a personal style sort of adjustment, and not a game system deal.
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binarywraith
post Jan 1 2015, 01:32 AM
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Eh, ever since Corporate Shadowfiles, and re-iterated in Run Faster, it's been noted when discussing working for corp Johnsons that they tend to pay in kind when they can get away with it. Not much of a stretch there.
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Stahlseele
post Jan 1 2015, 02:06 AM
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The SR5 Runner Payment rules basically make it so that if a GM goes by these, the Runners will start ditching runs to go and steal that nice luxury sedan over there to fence it for more than they would get if they risked life and limb on an actual run . .
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binarywraith
post Jan 1 2015, 02:23 AM
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Luxury sedan hell, if you can flip three Jackrabbits a week you make better payout than the SR5 standards, even giving the fixer his cut.
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Sendaz
post Jan 1 2015, 02:35 AM
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SedanRun™ (Think Gone in 60 Seconds 2070s)

Your crew steals and chops cars for fun and profit.

From boosting Jackrabbits to sell on the cheap to stealing sports cars to ship off to exotic locales.

Just be sure not to nick Mr Knight's Limo, he hates that.

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apple
post Jan 1 2015, 09:49 AM
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Just to add some food: http://rabenwelten.wordpress.com/2008/11/1...lohn-der-angst/

If you cannot read German, here is a very rough translation of the main points:

Per peson:
Milk runs (almost no risk runs) around 1000¥ (very short, almost no preparation)
Easy runs: around 5000¥ (several days, some preperation)
Normal runs: around 10 000 - 50 000¥ (some risks, perhaps combat, preparation, legwork)
Elite runs: 50 000+ ¥ (high security, elite enemies, hardcore combat expected, lots of ressources involved etc)

Modifer
Untouchable: 10% of the sum, you really screwed up
Thrash: 25%, because you are still meh to us
Noob: 25%, because we dont know if you are worth it
Semi-pro: 50% because you didnt scew up last time (more than a noob, but still have no real name on the street)
Shadowpunk: standard, because you you have a name, but some things are still missing
Shadowrunner: +50% becuse you are a professional
Vet: x2
Elite: x4
God: x10

Combined with some modifiers for Johnson, bad luck, working with different teams etc and you have some really nice guidelindes for old and new gamemaster. We played with similar rules for years and it worked very well. I can only recommand that over the official precogniation- rules in SR5 or the hilarious rules in SR3 runner compendium.

SYL
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hermit
post Jan 1 2015, 10:47 AM
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QUOTE
Even basic house rules (like the one from AAS) were far better.

Actually, the GTA factor remains the most sensible payout guideline I have ever seen written for Shadowrun.
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Shaidar
post Jan 1 2015, 02:42 PM
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I prefer to think of the SR5 Rewards guidelines as though they were Mr. Johnson's expectation estimate based on his experience and research.

After all since the GM already "knows" the oppositions Dice Pools and the MO of the Players/Runners working the equation backwards is a snap. Just base it on what the Runners might logically encounter.
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Blade
post Jan 2 2015, 11:01 AM
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The "stealing cars" argument is flawed.

Stealing car is a business. It's even a criminal business. Once a criminal business becomes profitable, it draws the interest of the mafia.
So you've got people coming and telling you that either you give them some of your profits, or you'll end up with the cops knowing everything about you, or with broken arms/legs or swimming with the fishes.

And don't kid yourself, it's not a "we take 10% and leave you the rest". Even the state corporate tax isn't that low. It's rather something like "we'll only take 80%, and that's because we like your style." Refuse, and you'll be sure that your contacts will avoid working with you, and bad things will tend to happen to you and your friends.

Most runners are good enough to cause trouble to a mafia, but the mafia also have the means to take care of such problems. If they're up against one runner, they can hire 4 of them to handle the problem. Plus they can use their weight to make sure the runner's contacts won't work with him, which will make that runner's life far more complicated.

So in the end there are only two solutions: keeping low profile so as not to attract the mafia's attention (which means not getting that much money) or a whole-out war with the mafia. The latter can be done, but now you're playing "Chaos Overlord, Shadowrun edition" instead of Shadowrun.
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apple
post Jan 2 2015, 11:43 AM
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QUOTE (Blade @ Jan 2 2015, 06:01 AM) *
Stealing car is a business. It's even a criminal business. Once a criminal business becomes profitable, it draws the interest of the mafia.
So you've got people coming and telling you that either you give them some of your profits, or you'll end up with the cops knowing everything about you, or with broken arms/legs or swimming with the fishes.


Yes, but compared to some of the lower runner payments (usually in the 4 digit area) you only need 1-4 cars each month to achieve the same runner payment. And in a city of millions, with thousands of cars burned/vanishing/being stolen/used for insurance scam every year, a couple of missing cars per month usually are not of interest to the mob.

And of course we could return the question:

If you claim that professional and successful car thieves immediately gets visit from the mob, demanding 80% of the payment, why exactly don´t the mob knock on the door of runners? Because as professionals with exquisite taste in armor, weapons, decks etc they are part of the shadow community as car thieves are, with a lot of money. Both runners and car thieves depend on certain back end infrastructure for their kind of work. They have both a similar need for discretion, connections and different skill sets (hacking, mechanic, physical force in the case of carnapping etc). So, why do the mafia knock on the door of a well organized, well armed and well trained group of runners turned car thieves, but not on the door of a well organized, well armed and well trained group of runners?

And please don´t answer with "they need the runner" - you just said that the mob can easily hire other runners to hunt the car thief runners. If your answer is "because we are playing Shadowrun and not CarRun!". then you are totally correct. Just pay them enough that there is a reason to be shadowrunners and all is good.

SYL
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Cain
post Jan 2 2015, 12:16 PM
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QUOTE (Blade @ Jan 2 2015, 03:01 AM) *
So in the end there are only two solutions: keeping low profile so as not to attract the mafia's attention (which means not getting that much money) or a whole-out war with the mafia. The latter can be done, but now you're playing "Chaos Overlord, Shadowrun edition" instead of Shadowrun.

No, the solution is to make it so shadowrunning is profitable enough that you don't have to force the PC's into doing it. Because that's the biggest suspension-of-disbelief issue, why run for money when there are better alternatives?
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apple
post Jan 2 2015, 12:23 PM
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I usually like to compare the runner biz to drug trade. From drug fields in SE Asia to labs in rural US to nightclubs in Frankfurt, there exists a delivery chain for every kind of product, involving thousands of groups, individuals, organizations etc. Some are independent, some are organized, some can exists in the shadows other throw and some are simply snuffed out because they pissed the wrong people off. They do not like or respect each other usually, but they interact and co-exist. If drug dealers play it smart, have luck and find their niche they can get rich and influential. Most dont, but thats another story.

Same goes for runners. Play smart and hard and you can make your money. But you are always dependent on the shadowy system from Johnson to Fixer (and his shady connections) and info broker.

SYL
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Blade
post Jan 2 2015, 01:48 PM
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That's a very good question, and one that I asked myself recently.

First of all, that's not universal. In Hong-Kong, according to Runner Havens, runners are expected to pay the Triad boss just like any other gangs (and it makes perfect sense in the HK underground).

Second, there could be multiple explanations:

- The concept of "deniable asset". If a runner can be traced back to a mafia, corps could retallliate against the mafia, which is some order of magnitude different from the cops trying to stop a car thief ring. Besides, while the mafia can use their influence to protect car thieves from police or to expose them if they aren't cooperative, they won't have so much leverage with corps and runners. More often than not, the corp won't be interested in catching the runners once the run is over.

- Runners are big fishes. A mob boss rules thanks to his authority and his ability to enforce it. If he fails to get car thieves to accept his authority, he'll lose it. So it's not just a matter of money, but also a matter of reputation. With runners, the mobster has less reputation to lose. It will just be seen as a token of respect. Since the price it costs to send professional hitmen after a runner is significantly higher than the price to send a gang after regular car thieves, the return on investment is low. So no reputation loss + low ROI = little interest in taking care of freelancing runners.

- Mafias are territorial. They control racket on their turf. A runner might have safe-houses there, and will pay adequate protection for them, but that's it. Unless we're talking about low-key runners who only take job inside a neighborhood. In that case, I guess they won't be exempt from the mafia tax.

But in any case, mafias have never been handled correctly in Shadowrun and that causes such problems.
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Mach_Ten
post Jan 2 2015, 02:01 PM
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You're looking at it from a very polar PoV here,

For the same reason as I do not wish to play "Car thief Simulator 2053" that I would imagine
boosting crummy everyday vehicles for a proportion of their worth would wear thin quite quickly as an occupation when you are armed to the teeth and the shadowy equivalent of death incarnate... Regardless of Law or Mafia consequences, not every runner would ditch running because boosting cars is going to pay the bills.

just look at criminals in todays age, it's too much hard work and risk for little reward, may as well go out and get a REAL Job !!

See "Gone in 60 seconds" for where this eventually leads ... you move up to "Shadowrunning" for high end vehicles.

and not to mention just because it is profitable doesn't mean every runner wants to do it ! ...

I can look in the wanted adverts for the best paying job I can adequately do, ... night shifts as a dangerous goods driver.. as an example ... pays really well ... so why isn't everyone in the country doing that one job just cause it is profitable ??

personal choices
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apple
post Jan 2 2015, 02:10 PM
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QUOTE (Blade @ Jan 2 2015, 08:48 AM) *
- The concept of "deniable asset".


So, if the entire run, from Johnson, black payments, info gathering, fixers, runners, legwork etc stays under the radar (and lets be honest, every high level run is a big and complex operation in itsefl), so why cant a car thief ring achieve the same?

QUOTE
- Runners are big fishes. A mob boss rules thanks to his authority and his ability to enforce it.


True. But that does not stop mob boss in co-existing with other syndicates (in Seattle there are 3 different Yakuza families for example), co-existing with other criminal organizations (Mafia, Seoulpa, Yak, Vory etc) or having deals with other organizations (like runners with millions in hardware and software, fixers with extensive connections, smuggler operations, black market hackers and mechanics etc). To one degree or another they are independent, yet they interact on a daily basis, without breaking into a war. Even in reality there are many different car stealing gangs (and other criminal organisations), even selling over borders (Germany / Poland for example) and still exists in one city, without constant war.

QUOTE
If he fails to get car thieves to accept his authority, he'll lose it.


That of course goes to any other operation in the same area. You say that he cannot allow a car thief ring running independent. But why can he allow that to a normal runner team, with the same amount of money and resources (and monthly income due to runs). Why does he not simply force the runners to pay 80% of their income to the mob?

QUOTE
Since the price it costs to send professional hitmen after a runner is significantly higher than the price to send a gang after regular car thieves,


But we are not talking about a low level gang of gangers turned car thief but about a runner team turned car thief. The return of investment is the same as if he send his hitmen against a classic runner team.

QUOTE
- Mafias are territorial.


And both a classic runner team and a runner team turned car thieves are not necessarily territorial, but can operate (and steal) all over the city. Depending on their ressources even nation-wide or
internationally. So the hacker has his safehouse and the runners have a small garage where some cars go in and out (perhaps 2-3 per week).

QUOTE
But in any case, mafias have never been handled correctly in Shadowrun and that causes such problems.


Actually ... no.Don´t forget that you brought up the Mafia example. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The only problem here is a gamemaster simply paying not enough so the question "why dont we steal that jackrabbit over there and sell it for 3000 bucks?" arises in the first place. Because the gamemaster could simply say" I am offering 10k each person to break into that secured facility" instead of "3k for the whole team". Its so easy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SYL
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Blade
post Jan 2 2015, 02:17 PM
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Please note that while I think that the mafia should knock on the door of whoever makes substantial money with a criminal business, I don't say that Shadowrunner should be paid little. I just say that if you want to play in a universe where runners are paid little, that's completely possible even if cars are expensive.

For the payout, I think there are many different aspects to consider. Namely:
- The atmosphere of the campaign. Are the runners lowlives trying to survive in a harsh world or are they elite criminals, superstars of the underworld?

- The "goal" of the players: Do they blow all their money on novacoke and prostitutes, do they invest it all in upgrades or in acquiring the means to reach a higher goal?

- The character improvement and balance. More money can lead to more powerful runners. There's also the question of karma vs nuyens. For the same amount or karma, if you pay the runners too little and the awakened will progress faster and if you pay too much they'll lag behind the techies and augmented. In the first case, riggers will be pretty much unplayable. In the latter, they'll be unstoppable.

Each table has to find their own sweet spot depending on each of these factors.
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Bertramn
post Jan 2 2015, 02:24 PM
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I do not see a problem in Runners deciding to set up a business in car-stealing.

That kind of initiative is pretty awesome with players.
At some point the mob will show up and demand their cut.
Seeing the characters deal with that situation can be fun.

Same thing with the IN DEBT flaw.
Seeing the players deal with the mob is interesting there as well.
Just seeing them pay off the debt is boring.

I for one will seriously raise their pay though,
after reading through some older adventures and comparing the numbers.
5k aint enough to risk your life for.
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Mach_Ten
post Jan 2 2015, 02:42 PM
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Alternatively

Pay them crap once or twice and then BLAM ¥100,000 payment for a Milk run.

then watch their poor little souls cry and panic over "Why!?" and if they even take the job, there could be a million different in game hooks.

from being hunted for the stolen cash to finding themselves on every Trid news channel in town tracked by the new 'ware they just got implanted.

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hermit
post Jan 2 2015, 02:49 PM
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QUOTE
After all since the GM already "knows" the oppositions Dice Pools and the MO of the Players/Runners working the equation backwards is a snap.

Except that it explicitly states "pools actually encountered", not "pools in the adventure". It even gives an example:

QUOTE ("SR5 Core Rules @ p 371")
For example, if the highest opposing dice pool is 12 (Hacking 6 + Logic 6) from an ace decker looking for the same paydata as the players, they should only count that pool if they hack against the decker. If instead they only encounter the decker in a gunfight and he (for some reason) doesn’t break out his hacking skills during the fight, they cannot count his Hacking dice pool as the highest opposing dice pool they faced.

A GM has no way of knowing what pool a group of runners will actually roll against, unless the GM is running everything on serious rails. This way of determining reward works for a video game or a loot based reward game like that game, but not for Shadowrun, where payment negotiation is a part of the average adventure's ritual.

If you want a big payout in SR5, head over to the Funhouse in Redmond and cast a Lv. 1 physical combat spell on Urubia (or throw a rock), then tell her it was all a big joke to rip a Johnson off. She'll join you in laughter and probably only demand 10% of the payday. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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