Shapeshifter buying off Allergy, Spend Karma and nuyen to buy off a negative quality Options

[Mystweaver]

What are peoples thoughts on this?

One of my players is a shapeshifter and would like to buy off her Allergy to Silver by building up an immunity through an idea which seems reasonable to me.

What should the Karma cost be?

I have already said i'd think about it and that she would have to continue to take the "medication" indefinately which would incur and additional monthly cost/subscription. If she stopped I have told here the Allergy would return.

SR4

[binarywraith]

Don't do it. It's the same as letting a Ghoul buy off their need to eat metahuman flesh, the drawback is one of the inherent defining characteristics of the character type.

At least that'd be my stance.

[Bertramn]

Or make the medication have side effects that are really fucking hard to deal with,
like a complete loss of appetite, resulting in lowered Body over time,
or hallucinations.

Maybe the medication works paradoxically under certain circumstances, or in combination with other stimulants,
which would make the allergy worse.

Loss of sleep
sleeping attacks (Narcolepsy)
nausea,
elongated periods for healing Stun damage (or physical, or both).

Take your pick.

Picking a type of character with very specific weaknesses, only to then negate the weaknesses, should be a hard thing to maintain.

Edit:

For me it is a similar situation to an Awakened character asking for a possibility to use cyber-ware without loosing magic.

[Cochise]

What are peoples thoughts on this?

As long as we're just talking about the "allergy" part I don't necessarily see a problem with looking for ways of bypassing some of the limitations via Karma expenditure.
One - at least in previous editions - valid way would have been an "alleviate allergy" spell made permanent via metamagic ... and since the shifter already is a permanently dual-natured entity the drawbacks concerning astral barriers or astral attacks against intensified spells weren't anything new for the shifter. Getting a similar result with medication or genetic treatments aren't out of the way either. For the sake of balance however - in addition to the karmic costs - any such treatment should be associated with rather large amounts of money upfront and possibly recurring payments ... and I certainly would not allow a shifter to lose his vulnerability to silver. That means: a mere touch on silver wouldn't cause the allergic reaction any longer but wounds caused by silver weapons would still do their increased damage.

What should the Karma cost be?

IIRC the allergy part of a shifter's problem with silver is the allergy equivalent of "uncommon, severe". So getting rid of that negative quality should be in accordance to that. I'm no SR4 expert so I can't provide exact numbers there.

One thing to remember though: Allowing something like that for a player character should be enough to set precedence for NPC shifters doing the same ... particularly in case of a solution that involves medication. Your group might find that idea less pleasant.

[Udoshi]

This is exactly what Allergen Immunization (augmentation 93) is made for.

In fact, if you look at the cost of it, its setup to be exactly the same BP/Cash ratio as the quality is - 5000Y aka 1 bp/2 karma per point of allergy.

It does cost essence, but substitutes the karma cost with money entirely - I think I'd be OK with someone paying full karma to avoid the essence hit when this is a possibility.

[Shortstraw]

I'd let them do it with karma by desensitization i.e. having silver piercings for a while (temporarily losing regen) and then buying it off after however long you decide.

[SpellBinder]

There's also the spell Alleviate Allergy (Street Magic, page 169). At Force 3 you can get the required 3 hits to eliminate the effects of the allergy while the spell is sustained. It's already a F/2 - 4 Drain so, BGC not withstanding, the Drain's really easy to deal with.

As for the transgentic treatment Udoshi mentioned, I'd probably allow that too (along with the karma cost to avoid the essence hit), but at double or triple the nuyen cost to represent the rarity of dealing with something so outside of the metahuman norm like a shifter. These things, after all, are originally done with [meta]humans in mind, not dogs and cats and bears and such.

And don't forget that even if the allergy is somehow bought off and/or eliminated, shifters are still Vulnerable to silver, something that cannot be bought off. The shifter will still take +2 damage from any silver laced attacks (as opposed to +6 with the allergy), and will not be able to use Regeneration or magic to heal damage from said silver laced attacks.

[Stingray]

..i would not allow to buy it off..
..one question.. is players Shapeshifter a mage/shaman?..
if so, creating a Power focus (alleviate Allergy (ring etc..) would help a bit..

[Siygess]

As others have stated buying off/alleviating the allergy in some way shouldn't be too much of a game changer, but allowing them to remove the vulnerability that to me smacks of pure munchkin-ism.

[Stingray]

As others have stated buying off/alleviating the allergy in some way shouldn't be too much of a game changer, but allowing them to remove the vulnerability that to me smacks of pure munchkin-ism.

..as i recall, only Pixie's (as non-metahuman) have a possibility to buy off their racial weakness by RAW (Vanishing)..

[bannockburn]

..as i recall, only Pixie's (as non-metahuman) have a possibility to buy off their racial weakness by RAW (Vanishing)..

Close, but not quite right. Every sapient critter can buy off their Uneducated weakness. Vanishing, however, cannot be bought off (and isn't that much of a drawback either: after all it only means your body vanishes after death).

As for the allergy, it's RAW that the GM decides whether a quality can be removed by Karma expenditure. Furthermore, the rules on p. 271 also suggest that there's more involved than just simply paying and it's gone; a character has to undertake "severe changes" before the approval is even in question.
This being said, I'd bend the rules here. Tell a player if you'll allow it, before those drastic measures are taken. Make a clear outline as to what is required.

Personally, I wouldn't allow a shifter to buy off the allergy, but that's just me. It seems very counterintuitive to remove the allergy and keep the weakness, and it's a pretty defining drawback for playing a shapeshifter.
Also consider that removing the allergy means that the shifter can regenerate all the time, even with silver bullets lodged in the body. That's a very considerable change.

If the player's ideas seem reasonable to you however, go for it. It'll cost, as Cochise said, double the BP cost of an uncommon and severe allergy, which means 30 Karma points.

[Stingray]

Close, but not quite right. Every sapient critter can buy off their Uneducated weakness. Vanishing, however, cannot be bought off (and isn't that much of a drawback either: after all it only means your body vanishes after death).

As for the allergy, it's RAW that the GM decides whether a quality can be removed by Karma expenditure. Furthermore, the rules on p. 271 also suggest that there's more involved than just simply paying and it's gone; a character has to undertake "severe changes" before the approval is even in question.
This being said, I'd bend the rules here. Tell a player if you'll allow it, before those drastic measures are taken. Make a clear outline as to what is required.

Personally, I wouldn't allow a shifter to buy off the allergy, but that's just me. It seems very counterintuitive to remove the allergy and keep the weakness, and it's a pretty defining drawback for playing a shapeshifter.
Also consider that removing the allergy means that the shifter can regenerate all the time, even with silver bullets lodged in the body. That's a very considerable change.

If the player's ideas seem reasonable to you however, go for it. It'll cost, as Cochise said, double the BP cost of an uncommon and severe allergy, which means 30 Karma points.

...(trying to find my Runner's Companion)...hmm..remembering it wrong.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif)

[Cochise]

As for the allergy, it's RAW that the GM decides whether a quality can be removed by Karma expenditure. Furthermore, the rules on p. 271 also suggest that there's more involved than just simply paying and it's gone; a character has to undertake "severe changes" before the approval is even in question.
This being said, I'd bend the rules here. Tell a player if you'll allow it, before those drastic measures are taken. Make a clear outline as to what is required.

Personally, I wouldn't allow a shifter to buy off the allergy, but that's just me. It seems very counterintuitive to remove the allergy and keep the weakness, and it's a pretty defining drawback for playing a shapeshifter.
Also consider that removing the allergy means that the shifter can regenerate all the time, even with silver bullets lodged in the body. That's a very considerable change.

~hmm~ Just as an idea: How about the "severe change" indeed being a transgenetic treatment (at above normal cost due to the non-metahuman target genome) that also has considerable effect on the regeneration power? Like a slowed down regeneration over several combat turns or a higher chance of regenetation failure at lower wound levels!?

[bannockburn]

All good ideas.
Luckily I'm not in the situation, and, as such, do not need to rationalize with my players (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Sendaz]

In my mind it would have to be a pretty radical change before I would allow it.

Remember the whole allergy/vulnerability qualities were used to represent an effect that was detrimental to every cell in the creature's body. This is not hay fever, exposure to the element in question literally burns in some cases.

And if you open this door, then you also have to take into account other groups like Vamps who have been researching for years (check out Terminus Experiment novel) to try and create a Sun Proof variant.

Although maybe you want to be the guy to introduce the Twilight Vamp to your game where they trade in Allergy to Sunlight for the Emo and Sparkle in Sunlight NQs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) It's not like they wouldn't be KOS anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Again it is possible, but one has to keep an eye on the long term effects once that particular Pandora's box is opened.

[Cochise]

All good ideas.
Luckily I'm not in the situation, and, as such, do not need to rationalize with my players (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Hey, I'm just trying to be "constructive" here ... instead of my more regular self (IMG:style_emoticons/default/scatter.gif)

[Isath]

While not being all too fond of the idea of a shapeshifter buying off this rather defining trait, there may be room for it in some campaigns. It has been mentioned, that this would and should be a radical change, I would go so far as to say it would / could be an extensive charakter- plot or theme. Also I would put "play" over "pay" and maybe would forgo the karmafactor entirely but instead would work a fitting set of drawbacks.

[Bearclaw]

IMHO Silver allergy and regeneration are linked. So my answer would be:
Yes, you can buy off the allergy and vulnerability at the cost of paying the karma costs for buying off the allergy, but you also lose the regeneration.
Also, a pill or something could temporarily remove the symptoms of the allergy, but again, at the cost of the regeneration.

[bannockburn]

Well, allergies of all kind are 'linked' to the Regeneration power, insofar as you can't regenerate any damage while you're in contact with the substance you're allergic to. Critters can even have the Regeneration power without having an allergy or even a weakness of any kind (see for precedence: dracoforms in general, or Nimue's Salamander for having a vulnerability, but no allergy).
Other than that, I don't see a real link, personally. For me, the link is between the negative quality allergy and the critter weakness vulnerability.

[Method]

I've never liked the idea of buying off negative qualities, and this is a prime example of the kinds of problems it creates. I think the concept was well intentioned- it makes sense that someone with and addiction or a gambling problem should be able to overcome those character flaws. But when you extend it to something like a shapeshifter's allergy it all falls apart. I hate telling players they can't do something, but I think in this case I wouldn't allow it.

[Isath]

With addictions, I would let a character reduce the level of his addiction, but not likely overcome completely; the temptation always remains. Still I somewhat resent the pay over play approach that is taken with such things.