Licenses, Think of it as a mechanic |
Licenses, Think of it as a mechanic |
Jan 23 2015, 04:12 PM
Post
#1
|
|
Man Behind the Curtain Group: Admin Posts: 14,871 Joined: 2-July 89 From: End of the Yellow-Brick Road Member No.: 3 |
Same discussion rules apply as the SIN reboot thread: Please do NOT attempt to dictate to us that your interpretation is somehow fact or that you have omnipotence as to the mind or thoughts of the developers. I appreciate a discussion, not being dictated to.
In conversations about SINs, licenses were discussed as well as backgrounds. In the tabletop games I run/play in, we generally use a license not only for the various licenses but for additional elements we attach to a SIN. For example, a character needs to be listed as an employee of Acme Janitorial they can buy those credentials or the team hacker can hack Acme's server and create them, linking them to a fake SIN. We like to use the "license" mechanic as a flexible way to represent various things attached to a SIN that can be later removed and, of course, scrubbed from the issuing server to remove the SIN number link. Thoughts? |
|
|
Jan 23 2015, 05:36 PM
Post
#2
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,113 Joined: 24-January 13 From: Here to Eternity Member No.: 70,521 |
this is as I imagine it to be.
anything at all that is not a permanent part of your ID, would be a license IMO. be that employment, driving, weaponry, or access to security areas. it is stuff that can be issued and as quickly revoked. |
|
|
Jan 23 2015, 05:46 PM
Post
#3
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,654 Joined: 29-October 06 Member No.: 9,731 |
this is as I imagine it to be. anything at all that is not a permanent part of your ID, would be a license IMO. be that employment, driving, weaponry, or access to security areas. it is stuff that can be issued and as quickly revoked. Interesting; I hadn't thought of security access as something that could be represented with a license. |
|
|
Jan 23 2015, 05:58 PM
Post
#4
|
|
Man Behind the Curtain Group: Admin Posts: 14,871 Joined: 2-July 89 From: End of the Yellow-Brick Road Member No.: 3 |
Interesting; I hadn't thought of security access as something that could be represented with a license. We considered a more granular rule set but decided it would have detracted from game play rather than enhanced it, so for us, the 'license' mechanic has become a one size fits all kind of bolt on, unbolt thing. Works well in our games. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
|
|
Jan 23 2015, 06:07 PM
Post
#5
|
|
Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,039 Joined: 23-March 05 From: The heart of Rywfol Emwolb Industries Member No.: 7,216 |
Making all the extras mentioned above go under the umbrella of 'license' does seem to make it a bit easier.
Could certain real licenses attached to a Fake SIN affect it during a SIN check? i.e you have some restricted licenses attached (having used your Fake SIN to get a license showing you as a security consultant and even paid for the weapon licenses as part of your cover) but have crossed a border and the guards are checking you over. Could this presence of the licenses add a modifier to the check, maybe representing the guard paying more attention because they are restricted or maybe a little less because you your licenses show you as a security consultant and therefore in their mind a legitimate guy? |
|
|
Jan 23 2015, 06:22 PM
Post
#6
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 221 Joined: 31-December 10 From: Tacoma, Washington Member No.: 19,262 |
It can also help manage the Costs if the players want to purchase a ready-made SIN w/ Licenses for temporary use for a run.
|
|
|
Jan 23 2015, 06:26 PM
Post
#7
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 264 Joined: 28-October 14 From: HH Member No.: 190,938 |
Interesting; I hadn't thought of security access as something that could be represented with a license. Same here. I am interested in the prospect though, and in some guidelines for that. I for example always thought that the Rating of the License represented how well it is forged, while now it may only represent how hard it was to forge. |
|
|
Jan 23 2015, 07:03 PM
Post
#8
|
|
Man Behind the Curtain Group: Admin Posts: 14,871 Joined: 2-July 89 From: End of the Yellow-Brick Road Member No.: 3 |
Like SINs, we generally see licenses as real, fake, & stolen. Real licenses can be attached to fake SINs when the issuing host is hacked. The fake SIN then potentially becomes a liability when the license passes muster, but the SIN is blown... which then blows the license. Conversely, a fake license could be attached to a real SIN. My thoughts here are legal problems for the SIN owner, though in a corrupt legal system that can generally be dealt with via a generous application of nuyen.
One of the challenges for the hacker is to keep the SIN from being blown when the license is used to gain access where a crime is committed. |
|
|
Jan 24 2015, 03:48 AM
Post
#9
|
|
Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Same discussion rules apply as the SIN reboot thread: Please do NOT attempt to dictate to us that your interpretation is somehow fact or that you have omnipotence as to the mind or thoughts of the developers. I appreciate a discussion, not being dictated to. In conversations about SINs, licenses were discussed as well as backgrounds. In the tabletop games I run/play in, we generally use a license not only for the various licenses but for additional elements we attach to a SIN. For example, a character needs to be listed as an employee of Acme Janitorial they can buy those credentials or the team hacker can hack Acme's server and create them, linking them to a fake SIN. We like to use the "license" mechanic as a flexible way to represent various things attached to a SIN that can be later removed and, of course, scrubbed from the issuing server to remove the SIN number link. Thoughts? We do the same for jobs a SIN has (like Bounty Hunter), and also include some logical stuff like concealed carry into that if appropiate. We tend to buy SINs as package deals anyway, so it only really comes up if a License is added later on. |
|
|
Jan 26 2015, 05:38 PM
Post
#10
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 598 Joined: 12-October 05 Member No.: 7,835 |
Using the same "Rating equates to quality" mechanic that applies to SINs for credentials, qualifications, registrations, licenses, permits, and clearances is a cool idea. It can be for players who want to better blend in with mainstream society or have a fleshed out secret identity or double life. Even better, it can get the face more engaged in the game and help with roleplaying undercover operations. By attaching a nuyen value to these, it could be like... wait for it... ammo for faces.
EDIT: Typed something wrong. |
|
|
Jan 26 2015, 07:54 PM
Post
#11
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 576 Joined: 6-May 10 From: Front Range Free Zone Member No.: 18,558 |
I actually hate Licenses. I think they're unnecessary bookkeeping. I think the fake SIN should be enough to handwave the fake licensing fees and abstract out the entire licensing system.
It ends up becoming a lot of extra nuyen and insane bookkeeping when you need a license for every piece of restricted gear. And then, what if you have multiple SINs, do you need multiple Licenses now? Then we run in to weirdness if you switch to your Wageslave SIN that isn't licensed to carry that Ares Predator, from your Bounty Hunter SIN which is. I'd much rather have it abstracted in to SINs then be its own thing. This post has been edited by DeathStrobe: Jan 29 2015, 10:12 PM |
|
|
Jan 26 2015, 08:58 PM
Post
#12
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 264 Joined: 28-October 14 From: HH Member No.: 190,938 |
Word!
|
|
|
Jan 26 2015, 09:15 PM
Post
#13
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,113 Joined: 24-January 13 From: Here to Eternity Member No.: 70,521 |
I actually hate Licenses. I think they're unnecessary bookkeeping. I think the fake SIN should be enough to handwave the fake licensing fees and abstract out the entire licensing system. It ends up becoming a lot of extra nuyen and insane bookkeeping when you need a license for every piece of restricted gear. And then, what if you have multiple SINs, do you need multiple Licenses now? Then we run in to weirdness if you switch to your Wageslave SIN that isn't licensed to carry that Ares Predator, from your Bounty Hunter SIN which is. IT definately deserves a common sense approach, i.e. making it an expense for a specific run to be allowed "concealed carry" for a bodyguard job in AAA sec. but not necessarily something for everyday use Or what happens if you have a license to carry, but no SIN, which you can do by RAW, but doesn't make any sense. I'm deeply involved in SR3 currently and that states specifically that a Fake Credstick (R6) is required to link to a permit I wonder where they lost the link in editions, |
|
|
Jan 26 2015, 09:43 PM
Post
#14
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,893 Joined: 8-August 13 From: New Jersey , USA Member No.: 140,076 |
I play that you need a license for a category. So if you owned a pistol, an SMG, and an Assault Rifle, you would only need a single license. If you had restricted cyberware, only a single license would be required.
That being said, I do require a license for each SIN - if you are going to use the license mechanic then those licenses are tied to the identity of your SIN. Thus if your fake SIN saying your name is Henry Smith and work for Renraku has a license to carry a firearm, that license is keyed to that SIN. So if you are trying to bluff your way into Ares using a fake SIN saying your name is John Jones, and that you are an employee of Ares, then the license to carry a firearm registered to Henry Smith isn't going to cut it. I understand Deathstrobe's point, in that it would save in bookkeeping to eliminate it all together, but I believe if you are going to use the mechanic, you have to have a license for each SIN you have. ETA - I don't believe you can have a license with no SIN, as getting a license requires a SIN check (page 363) - meaning all real licenses are linked to real SINS, so fake licenses would have to be linked to a SIN of some sort (fake or otherwise). |
|
|
Jan 26 2015, 10:15 PM
Post
#15
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 413 Joined: 20-September 10 Member No.: 19,058 |
Personally I think they should be part of a SIN.
If your SIN is that you're a cop then you might have licenses for small arms, and some crowd control weapons. If you're a plumber then you're not getting a license for an assault rifle. Your milage may vary. I know if you play Shadowrun in the US the idea of restricted weapons probably doesn't make sense, but to me it does, particularly in a Dystopia. This doesn't mean that you can't get them, it just means you can't open carry them. The other aspect is that if licenses are dolled out to anyone willing to make an application, then that's even more reason to build them into SINs. The paperwork just seems un-necessary otherwise. Mechanics seem un-necessary. If your SIN doesn't logically allow you to have weapon X then it will be confiscated, you maybe fined or gaoled and your SIN maybe checked. I wouldn't want them to have seperate mechanics. |
|
|
Jan 28 2015, 09:02 PM
Post
#16
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,082 Joined: 3-October 09 From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier Member No.: 17,709 |
I like licenses modeled on Corporation's take. They use pretty broad categories (light weapons, heavy weapns, support weapons) and there are clear prerequisites for obtaining a license legally, typically certain skill levels.
|
|
|
Jan 28 2015, 09:40 PM
Post
#17
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 448 Joined: 13-August 13 Member No.: 142,622 |
Here's a question.
SR5 tells you how much it costs to acquire a fake license. What about a character who has a legitimate SIN and is a PI. How much does the Private Investigator , Pistol, and Carry Concealed licenses cost to attach to your real SIN? |
|
|
Jan 28 2015, 09:44 PM
Post
#18
|
|
Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
Nothing?
They are part of your SIN? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
|
|
Jan 28 2015, 10:08 PM
Post
#19
|
|
Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,039 Joined: 23-March 05 From: The heart of Rywfol Emwolb Industries Member No.: 7,216 |
Think he meant how much a real license would cost to obtain.
It is somewhere in the notes, now have to go digging for them. Not like any of us ever do things legitimately you know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) |
|
|
Jan 29 2015, 01:48 AM
Post
#20
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 576 Joined: 6-May 10 From: Front Range Free Zone Member No.: 18,558 |
I'd assume legal licenses should be free since it means your gun can be traced back to you, maybe through ballistics or more realistically by leaving a data trail of every sensor recording that you were at the scene of a crime/shadowrun.
It'd be too much of a liability for my taste. |
|
|
Jan 29 2015, 03:06 AM
Post
#21
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,893 Joined: 8-August 13 From: New Jersey , USA Member No.: 140,076 |
There is no cost listed to obtain a license legally. What it says in the book is: (SR5 pg 363)
"Acquiring a license (legally) is, again, dependent on the laws of the country. For the most part, acquiring a license involves making an application, paying some sort of fee, a SIN check, and possibly passing one or more certification, testing, or training programs. The exact details of acquiring a license are left up to the gamemaster, but government bureaucracies are notoriously slow and frustrating." For me, I wouldn't charge the player's too much, maybe 50 or 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) or so. I mean, from a realism standpoint, there should be some fee. I am hard pressed to think of some license that you can obtain in the real world legally that doesn't have some sort of fee attached to it. |
|
|
Jan 29 2015, 03:24 AM
Post
#22
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 576 Joined: 6-May 10 From: Front Range Free Zone Member No.: 18,558 |
I'd assume that a legal license would just be abstracted into lifestyle. After all, real licenses have recurring costs. And assuming you are not living on the streets like a dirty SINless, and actually have a real SIN and tied your residence to your real SIN, which is going to cause real problems if you need to burn that SIN because you made a run against the wrong people and they blow up your house.
You know...there is no reason why players should be allowed to have a legal license or use their real SIN on anything. Common sense would dictate that no runner would be that stupid to give people real information about themselves which can be used against themselves. But then again a greenhorn would make that mistake, and then they'd have to buy off their sinner quality or else have more problems down the road. Burning a real SIN shouldn't be as easy as burning fakes, which is why it costs karma. |
|
|
Jan 29 2015, 03:25 AM
Post
#23
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 448 Joined: 13-August 13 Member No.: 142,622 |
For me, I wouldn't charge the player's too much, maybe 50 or 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) or so. I mean, from a realism standpoint, there should be some fee. I am hard pressed to think of some license that you can obtain in the real world legally that doesn't have some sort of fee attached to it. My thoughts exactly...you even got to pay a fee to fish in this country for dragon's sake |
|
|
Jan 29 2015, 03:37 AM
Post
#24
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 448 Joined: 13-August 13 Member No.: 142,622 |
I'd assume that a legal license would just be abstracted into lifestyle. After all, real licenses have recurring costs. And assuming you are not living on the streets like a dirty SINless, and actually have a real SIN and tied your residence to your real SIN, which is going to cause real problems if you need to burn that SIN because you made a run against the wrong people and they blow up your house. You know...there is no reason why players should be allowed to have a legal license or use their real SIN on anything. Common sense would dictate that no runner would be that stupid to give people real information about themselves which can be used against themselves. But then again a greenhorn would make that mistake, and then they'd have to buy off their sinner quality or else have more problems down the road. Burning a real SIN shouldn't be as easy as burning fakes, which is why it costs karma. It all has to do with their background... for example, a character with Limited Corporate SIN and DayJob might work for Lonestar 20 hours a week...his SIN would require permits that allowed him to carry the pistol/security armor and any other restricted item that Lonestar allows him during his working hours. Of course, he's a crooked cop, so when he's not working for Lonestar he's working an angle in the shadows. |
|
|
Jan 29 2015, 06:26 PM
Post
#25
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,082 Joined: 3-October 09 From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier Member No.: 17,709 |
It all has to do with their background... for example, a character with Limited Corporate SIN and DayJob might work for Lonestar 20 hours a week...his SIN would require permits that allowed him to carry the pistol/security armor and any other restricted item that Lonestar allows him during his working hours. Somebody who carries arms as part of his job shouldn't need a license. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) |
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 27th April 2024 - 12:44 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.