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> CGL on proofreading, We'll do better, I swear
Sengir
post Feb 5 2015, 06:06 PM
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Nearly a week old but seemingly nobody here read's CGL's tumblr (or none of those who do found it notable): http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/10...roofing-process

Admitting that something went wrong probably counts for something, even though it isn't news to anyone who paid attention The "new" process on the other hand...really? They discovered annotated PDFs? Rumor has it those annotations don't even use cuneiform anymore...
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Shemhazai
post Feb 5 2015, 08:21 PM
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I'll bet the community could create something like this:

0767908171 - Errata and corrigenda

Title list - Errata and corrigenda
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Jaid
post Feb 5 2015, 11:35 PM
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so who's got money on those three pages going to the final version without the proofer's corrections incorporated in spite of their new fancy "system"? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

(i mean, seriously, it's not as if they didn't have access to the proofreading team's work before, and they still managed to not include a lot of really obvious fixes before...)
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PraetorGradivus
post Feb 6 2015, 12:01 AM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Feb 5 2015, 07:35 PM) *
so who's got money on those three pages going to the final version without the proofer's corrections incorporated in spite of their new fancy "system"? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

(i mean, seriously, it's not as if they didn't have access to the proofreading team's work before, and they still managed to not include a lot of really obvious fixes before...)


Oh ye of little faith.

Me, I have faith that it will contain no proofer's corrections.
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Sengir
post Feb 6 2015, 12:42 AM
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QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Feb 5 2015, 09:21 PM) *
I'll bet the community could create something like this:

0767908171 - Errata and corrigenda

Title list - Errata and corrigenda

Given that a lot of errata isn't as cut-and-dry as the dragon hordes, a bugtracker would probably be better for a community effort.
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Bertramn
post Feb 6 2015, 08:43 AM
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Relying on the community for that would be the best solution I think,
because it would be coupled with an early look into the material,
and would offer the players opportunity to to maybe even influence the products content.

Thank god they have revolutionized the process of proofreading though,
the Lutheran system just didn't work, as we have seen with the last BBB.
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Cain
post Feb 6 2015, 09:08 AM
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Really isn't all that different than the old system. That was done on a cloud doc, but otherwise the comments and approval process was the same. Which, incidentally, was the part of the process that failed.
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Jaid
post Feb 6 2015, 03:53 PM
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the only modifications that needed to be made was to actually listen to their proofreaders. think of all the stuff that people complained about that we have specifically heard proofreaders say "oh, I submitted that for correction".

the new fancy system is all very well and good, but the first thing that needs to happen is that CGL needs to actually follow up on the proofreaders feedback. no amount of improving the way they can give feedback will help until the feedback ceases to be ignored.

hopefully, the fact that they took the time to set this up (not that I suspect it was particularly hard) implies that they're actually going to act on feedback. if they do, then that (not their new fancy system) will be what improves the quality of the books.
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Draco18s
post Feb 6 2015, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Feb 6 2015, 10:53 AM) *
the only modifications that needed to be made was to actually listen to their proofreaders.


Where's our "like this post" button?
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tete
post Feb 7 2015, 02:05 AM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Feb 6 2015, 04:53 PM) *
the only modifications that needed to be made was to actually listen to their proofreaders. think of all the stuff that people complained about that we have specifically heard proofreaders say "oh, I submitted that for correction".


+1
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Ryu
post Feb 7 2015, 07:28 AM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Feb 6 2015, 04:53 PM) *
the only modifications that needed to be made was to actually listen to their proofreaders. think of all the stuff that people complained about that we have specifically heard proofreaders say "oh, I submitted that for correction".

the new fancy system is all very well and good, but the first thing that needs to happen is that CGL needs to actually follow up on the proofreaders feedback. no amount of improving the way they can give feedback will help until the feedback ceases to be ignored.

hopefully, the fact that they took the time to set this up (not that I suspect it was particularly hard) implies that they're actually going to act on feedback. if they do, then that (not their new fancy system) will be what improves the quality of the books.

I sure hope they will - for the greater good of the line. From the description I agree that this is the old process with new tech.
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Smash
post Feb 8 2015, 10:59 PM
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QUOTE (PraetorGradivus @ Feb 6 2015, 11:01 AM) *
Oh ye of little faith.

Me, I have faith that it will contain no proofer's corrections.


It's not faith if it's supported by evidence (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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PraetorGradivus
post Feb 9 2015, 12:53 AM
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QUOTE (Smash @ Feb 8 2015, 06:59 PM) *
It's not faith if it's supported by evidence (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)






Faith is defined as confidence or trust in a being, object, living organism, deity, view, or in the doctrines or teachings of a religion, as well as confidence based on some degree of warrant. It can also be belief that is not based on proof.

Faith can be supported by evidence, it just doesn't require it.
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Umidori
post Feb 10 2015, 10:22 AM
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Far too little, far too late.

I've actually begun shopping around for other game systems entirely at this point. I suppose can always run 4E from time to time while I wait for the SR license to change hands, but CGL has lost a customer for life - short of a hell of a lot of hard work on their part making up for lost trust, I expect to never buy any of their products ever again.

~Umi
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Mikado
post Feb 10 2015, 11:54 AM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Feb 10 2015, 06:22 AM) *
Far too little, far too late.

I've actually begun shopping around for other game systems entirely at this point. I suppose can always run 4E from time to time while I wait for the SR license to change hands, but CGL has lost a customer for life - short of a hell of a lot of hard work on their part making up for lost trust, I expect to never buy any of their products ever again.

~Umi

Seconded...
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Draco18s
post Feb 10 2015, 02:01 PM
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Oh hai guys, welcome to the bandwagon.
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Medicineman
post Feb 10 2015, 04:57 PM
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I'll get the Core Books in German and will play either 4th ed or a Mix (the best of both worlds) of SR4A and SR5
on Conventions I'll play both Editions

mit a mixed Dance
Medicineman
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fistandantilus4....
post Feb 11 2015, 03:47 AM
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I'm hoping that they'll actually deliver. I did some proof reading way back some have some idea of at least the old process and the amount of work those guys put in. For nothing. Well, for books anyway. So I'm hopeful that things will work out.

But I've been told I'm an optimist. I know that Trash CGL is the popular opinion here, and there's plenty of valid reasons feel that way. If they're actively saying "we know this is a problem and are going to fix it" I'll reserve judgement until after they've put out whatever is next and see how their proposed Fix turns out. [Optimism] Doesn't seem fair to give them more hate when they say they're fixing something. [/Optimism]
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binarywraith
post Feb 11 2015, 08:11 AM
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QUOTE (fistandantilus4.0 @ Feb 10 2015, 09:47 PM) *
I'm hoping that they'll actually deliver. I did some proof reading way back some have some idea of at least the old process and the amount of work those guys put in. For nothing. Well, for books anyway. So I'm hopeful that things will work out.

But I've been told I'm an optimist. I know that Trash CGL is the popular opinion here, and there's plenty of valid reasons feel that way. If they're actively saying "we know this is a problem and are going to fix it" I'll reserve judgement until after they've put out whatever is next and see how their proposed Fix turns out. [Optimism] Doesn't seem fair to give them more hate when they say they're fixing something. [/Optimism]


Thing is, they've known this is a problem. They've been told. Extensively, for at minimum a year and a half now since we first got our grubby mitts on the SR5 PDF and generated an immediate dozen pages of proofing errors. We got an 'oops'... but it was too late to not go to press. Errata were generated... then they went to press with the second printing without incorporating any of the changes. Then the same issues started showing up in all of the splatbooks and PDF supplements.

At what point does optimism have to surrender to practical fact?
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Sengir
post Feb 11 2015, 02:16 PM
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QUOTE (fistandantilus4.0 @ Feb 11 2015, 04:47 AM) *
[Optimism] Doesn't seem fair to give them more hate when they say they're fixing something. [/Optimism]

As I initially said, admitting that something went wrong counts for something. And they did improve their errata releases (i.e. started releasing errata) after announcing they'd do better in that regard.

It's just that their announced improvement really can only be taken with (dark) humor...
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Jaid
post Feb 11 2015, 03:21 PM
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or, in other words, most of us would like to have them show us that they are not ignoring their proofreaders (by releasing quality product consistently) instead of telling us that it's all because they weren't using the right kind of shared document technology and now everything is going to be all better because they have new software that does the exact same thing as the old software, only with a different name on it.

after all: fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me.
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Draco18s
post Feb 11 2015, 03:28 PM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Feb 11 2015, 03:11 AM) *
since we first got our grubby mitts on the SR5 PDF and generated an immediate dozen pages of proofing errors


Or...actually since probably War! which wasn't terribly well proofed either, ignoring all of the bullshit content.
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Bertramn
post Feb 11 2015, 03:29 PM
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Please.

No discussion of War!.
I can remember the last one.
I can still smell the bodies sometimes.
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Umidori
post Feb 11 2015, 05:27 PM
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QUOTE (Bertramn @ Feb 11 2015, 08:29 AM) *
Please.

No discussion of War!.
I can remember the last one.
I can still smell the bodies sometimes.

You get used to it after awhile. But the nightmares will never stop. The only escape is death's sweet embrace.

QUOTE (Medicineman @ Feb 10 2015, 09:57 AM) *
I'll get the Core Books in German and will play either 4th ed or a Mix (the best of both worlds) of SR4A and SR5
on Conventions I'll play both Editions

mit a mixed Dance
Medicineman

This is somewhat off topic, but how do you like to mix the two editions? Generally I prefer the combat of 5E better, but I like 4E's Matrix stuff and Character Creation options more.

I'm kind of kicking around the idea of building an Unofficial "4.5E" ruleset and shopping around Dumpshock for feedback, since no one else has gotten around to doing it first yet, to my knowledge.

~Umi
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sk8bcn
post Feb 11 2015, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Feb 11 2015, 04:21 PM) *
or, in other words, most of us would like to have them show us that they are not ignoring their proofreaders (by releasing quality product consistently) instead of telling us that it's all because they weren't using the right kind of shared document technology and now everything is going to be all better because they have new software that does the exact same thing as the old software, only with a different name on it.

after all: fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me.


So what? That's just beeing politically correct.

No commercial could ever write: "ok, our main line developper sucked" or "well, we fucking did not care yet".

Whatever the reason, what counts is to effectively improve.
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