Help On Gun-Fu Options

[sk8bcn]

I have a player (playing an adept) who's willing to develop Gun-Fu Schticks. However, I'm more running the game in a lethal/tactical fashion than a Feng Shui style.

Does RAW have something to offer to this or do you have ideas about what could be nice and equilibrated?

[Sendaz]

Not sure if you want to go this route, but one Gun-Fu nut...err.. buddy of mine had his Predators modified to include a basket hilt over the trigger area to protect the hand and an underbarrel blade (think mini-bayonet with blade extending the from the basket hilt running under the barrel and about four inches past the barrel)

This allowed him to shoot and punch (with the basket hilt)/slash &stab (with the underbarrel blade) and even block/parry/counterstrike with the weapons and was evil in an alley fight when you had to deal both with range and melee attacks.

[sk8bcn]

I m looking for an adept power (or several, maybe), working on guns and finding ideas is up to my player (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I'm not gonna make it easy for him.

[Wounded Ronin]

I m looking for an adept power (or several, maybe), working on guns and finding ideas is up to my player (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I'm not gonna make it easy for him.

Sacrifice some Essence to get a Smartlink, and then pump up Improved Ability. Rolling 11 dice with a -2 TN is pretty sweet. Consider vision enhancements either through cybereyes or via physad powers to keep TNs low. Use a geas if you have to.

Pistols are sort of compromised by short range. TN penalties accrue fast. In SR3 you can run with a "sport rifle" and be a holy terror with the combination of long range and high damage code. Why screw around with silly ideas like pistols with finger guards and minibayonets when you can just take Clubs and say you're hitting someone with the rifle butt?

Yeah, there are lots of ways to have a powerful gun fu physad. The one thing that tends to be kind of inefficient is if the guy insists on dual wielding, because the TN penalties can offset the advantages you get for being a physad (chiefly in being able to roll a lot of dice), although I'm sure if someone really sat down and thought about it there is probably a way around that as well.

[Wounded Ronin]

...see also low cost for Improved Ability: Athletics and then the optional Cannon Companion rule for having Athletics help you with dodge tests.

Not my method of choice, as I'd rather double down on offensive power, but it's something to consider.

[sk8bcn]

...see also low cost for Improved Ability: Athletics and then the optional Cannon Companion rule for having Athletics help you with dodge tests.

Not my method of choice, as I'd rather double down on offensive power, but it's something to consider.

And what are your opinions on that optionnal rule in Cannon Companion?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And what are your opinions on that optionnal rule in Cannon Companion?

Never had any issues with it myself... *shrug*

[Wounded Ronin]

And what are your opinions on that optionnal rule in Cannon Companion?

I think it's OK, in that it never seemed to break any games I was involved in. You'll want to reread it carefully as my gaming days are years behind me, but I seem to remember that while the rule seemed a little silly, it does gel with the idea of some kind of gun kata adept. And it's not so powerful as to make your firefights comedy shows or anything like that.

I was reflecting some more on gunslinger type adepts as I used to play physads all the time in SR3. Just a few pointers for making such a character powerful:

1.) Shadowrun is a group game. There normally should be alternative targets for the bad guys to shoot, especially anyone who looks like a mage. Therefore, your gun kata physad doesn't need to max out Improved Reflexes, because it is very expensive. By taking the first or second tier, a LOT of power points are freed up to gain other bonuses and make a generally more powerful character. Many times, I've just gone with first tier.

For a gun kata skirmisher type I guess he needs at least first tier, but if you ever wanted to make a Zen sniper type character who would be more about deliberate accuracy than fast action? If you even go without Improved Reflexes, all of a sudden you have abundant powerpoints to pump up your skill and take all kinds of ancillary physad powers. It's kind of counter intuitive but it can work so long as the "slow" character isn't the only target for the bad guys to engage and you role play the guy like a sniper, and not like a door kicker.

2.) A lot of the advanced physad powers are kind of goofy in terms of the statistical advantage or limited scope advantage that they give you. I always had the most success by focusing on the stuff from the core rulebook.

3.) At 0.25 points per level, Improved Ability for non combat skills is a steal. It can be considered for Athletics, Stealth, Biotech, or even a driving skill to help you make a clean getaway in a stolen vehicle. To put it another way, can you imagine trying to run away from the scene of your crime in a stolen vehicle when your driving skill is like 2 because you didn't think to invest in it? And considering that Athletics covers all athletic endeavors, it's one of those things that can be really useful for a player who thinks about how to use this skill and really useless for someone who forgets about it and never tries to use it in-game.

4.) Burning 1 point of essence to get 'ware that compliments your chosen physad powers is advisable in terms of maxing statistical advantage.

[Moirdryd]

Centering is an initiation ability he wants ASAP with the Centering action being the Gun Kata and his initiation ordeal as developing the Gun Kata.

[Wounded Ronin]

Centering is an initiation ability he wants ASAP with the Centering action being the Gun Kata and his initiation ordeal as developing the Gun Kata.

Of course this means he has to take a Dance (Kata) skill or something to be the "artistic skill", since you aren't supposed to be able to center with combat actions.

[freudqo]

Technically, the book says "creative skills should not be particularly useful in non-magical areas". The example of bad decision they give is "zen archery".

So it's not reaaaaally forbidden, but I think they quite say that gun kata is a very bad idea.

BTW, for skill advancement, do you consider skills such as dancing, singing etc. as active or knowledge?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Technically, the book says "creative skills should not be particularly useful in non-magical areas". The example of bad decision they give is "zen archery".

So it's not reaaaaally forbidden, but I think they quite say that gun kata is a very bad idea.

BTW, for skill advancement, do you consider skills such as dancing, singing etc. as active or knowledge?

Active...

[Cochise]

BTW, for skill advancement, do you consider skills such as dancing, singing etc. as active or knowledge?

Whatever uncertainties the core rules and Magic in the Shadows might create as far as the classification of Dancing and Singing are concerned, State of the Art 2064 is very explicit in categorizing pretty much any artistic skill as Knowledge Skill:

page 64, SotA'64 (section on Virtuoso metamagical technique):
[..]
In game terms, to produce a virtuoso creation an adept must make a Skill (9) Test using an appropriate artistic Knowledge skill (Composition, Dancing, Drawing, Painting, Poetry, Sculpting, etc.) with a base time of one month.
[..]

And as much as I can understand the initial urge of treating such artistic skills that can involve physical actions as "active" skills, I actually see no reason for doing that on a balance level either.

[freudqo]

Many thanks Cochise!

Indeed, the wording of MITS was unclear to me. But with dancing, singing and the like being active, there was no point choosing anything but arcane language. Increasing an active skill is quite karma costly, which is not in any way necessary for magicians…

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Whatever uncertainties the core rules and Magic in the Shadows might create as far as the classification of Dancing and Singing are concerned, State of the Art 2064 is very explicit in categorizing pretty much any artistic skill as Knowledge Skill:

page 64, SotA'64 (section on Virtuoso metamagical technique):
[..]
In game terms, to produce a virtuoso creation an adept must make a Skill (9) Test using an appropriate artistic Knowledge skill (Composition, Dancing, Drawing, Painting, Poetry, Sculpting, etc.) with a base time of one month.
[..]

And as much as I can understand the initial urge of treating such artistic skills that can involve physical actions as "active" skills, I actually see no reason for doing that on a balance level either.

However, If I remember correctly, All Adept Centering Skills were Classified (and were required to be such, in fact) as Active, regardless of the skill itself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Sadly, I do not have my Books anymore, and yes, if you wanted to be a virtuoso Artist, those were generally applied as knowledge skills.

Centering Skills and Artistic Skills are not the same thing.

Are not the Initiation Rules for 3rd Edition in the Magic Book? My Sole PDF of that era is the core book, and I do not see them in there.

[freudqo]

Nope, centering was an active skill, but for sure some of the creative skill (there's no "centering skills", only one, and it's associated to a "creative skill", which can be a lot of stuff) were knowledge.

MITS p72 : "The creative skill can be Active or Knowledge, though it is usually an artistic or intellectual ability."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Nope, centering was an active skill, but for sure some of the creative skill (there's no "centering skills", only one, and it's associated to a "creative skill", which can be a lot of stuff) were knowledge.

MITS p72 : "The creative skill can be Active or Knowledge, though it is usually an artistic or intellectual ability."

My point being that to gain the benefit of the CENTERING itself, it was tied to the Active Skill, which you just confirmed for me. That was what I was remembering. Thanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[freudqo]

What did you mean by centering skillS then?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What did you mean by centering skillS then?

You have a Centering SKILL that is Active for purposes of Centering itself (and therefore advances as an ACTIVE skill), then you can be creative as well, which may be active or knowledge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[freudqo]

Oh okay ; There was a misunderstanding then ; My question was only about the [b]creative[\b] skills, specifically the [b]artistic[\b] skills, the last ones turning out to be knowledge. That's important because you have to have both centering and creative at the same skill level, and the two being active would have been a fragging karma sink!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Oh okay ; There was a misunderstanding then ; My question was only about the [b]creative[\b] skills, specifically the [b]artistic[\b] skills, the last ones turning out to be knowledge. That's important because you have to have both centering and creative at the same skill level, and the two being active would have been a fragging karma sink!

Ahhh... Got it... Been many years removed from SR3, and no real references anymore. Good to know I was not totally off base. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wounded Ronin]

So what did the player do in the end?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Aren't there two or three versions of this in Run Faster? Gun Kata and then Ares tactical (Or something) and one more?

[Cain]

IIRC, Centering is an Active skill, but it's tied to an artistic skill-- it can't be any higher than that skill. The artistic skill could be almost anything, but most players picked a Knowledge skill as a base.

In my Sr3 games, I allowed a lot of "hobby" skills, skills that were technically active but were unlikely to ever be meaningful, to use the Knowledge skill advancement costs. So, Dancing was classified as a hobby skill, as was shooting pool, musical skills, skateboarding, video games, etc. The end result was that characters had more hobby/character background skills, and finding a good skill to link to Centering was easy.

While there was no explicit prohibition on using a combat skill to link to Centering, It's so strongly discouraged that no one ever tried it in my games. The closest was a guy who asked about using Tai Chi forms for centering. That character never actually made it into play, but the general decision was that we'd treat his knowledge of forms as distinct from his actual Unarmed Combat skill, and he couldn't use that skill to attack or defend-- it was just for demonstrations. Essentially, it was just a fancy way of describing dancing.

[sk8bcn]

So what did the player do in the end?

I play on a twice a month format. I ll see him tomorrow only. So yet, I don't know how he feels about the Canon Companion rules