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> Semi automatic bursts and the MGL-12
Oracle
post Mar 28 2015, 12:03 AM
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The MGL-12 is a semi-automatic weapon. That means it should be able to fire semi-automatic bursts. Has anyone figured out how that is supposed to work rules wise?
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Smash
post Mar 28 2015, 02:23 AM
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Well it would give the target -2 to their dodge roll as per the rules but as the gun fires grenades that can't be dodged I'd say the effect is 3/8s of f-all and wastes 2 shots.
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Shaidar
post Mar 28 2015, 05:11 AM
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Or you could determine scatter and apply a Chunky Salsa effect for each grenade.
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Lobo0705
post Mar 28 2015, 05:36 AM
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Page 183

MULTIPLE SIMULTANEOUS BLASTS
When multiple explosives detonate at once the effects
are similar to those of a blast in a confined space (more
chunky salsa). When two explosions occur on the same
Combat Initiative Score and both blasts effect the same
character add half the value of the lower DVs to the
highest DV and apply it all as a single modified Damage
Value for the purposes of Damage Resistance tests. For
AP calculations, use the best AP and improve it by 1 for
every additional explosion.
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SpellBinder
post Mar 28 2015, 06:35 AM
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So, just to make sure I'm understanding the math right, a burst of 3 grenades of the same type equates to a +50% DV and -2 to AP?
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KarmaInferno
post Mar 28 2015, 12:18 PM
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Sounds more like +100% and -2.



-k
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Medicineman
post Mar 28 2015, 01:14 PM
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QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Mar 28 2015, 08:18 AM) *
Sounds more like +100% and -2.



-k


that.
2nd Grenade adds 50 % DV and -1 AP , 3rd Grenade too..... thats 32 K with AP -4 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)
( Plus Chunky Salsa and no dodging if the Grenades are aimed at the floor..... Welll , Holla die Waldfee, this . is . gonna . hurt . )

with an explosive Dance
Medicineman
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Smash
post Mar 28 2015, 01:53 PM
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I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

The effect of semi-automatic burst is -2 defence modifier as per the table on p180. You can't multiply damage multiple times with it unless you use the multiple attack action and fire at 3 different targets.

If you fire a pistol in semi-auto burst mode you only ever get to apply the damage once.

The chunky salsa rule exists for set explosives or when multiple grenades just happen to go off at the same time. This only occurs with timers or when 2 different characters throw them.
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Medicineman
post Mar 28 2015, 02:27 PM
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QUOTE
I'm not sure where you're getting that from.


Me, I'm getting that from Lobo 0705's Post and Lobo 0705 is getting it from the BBB Page 183 (as he already posted )

and a Burst of a gun is something different than a Burst of Grenades.
CGL is of the same oppinion or else they wouldn't have written these Rules

with a different Dance
Medicineman
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Jaid
post Mar 28 2015, 04:10 PM
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QUOTE (Medicineman @ Mar 28 2015, 09:14 AM) *
that.
2nd Grenade adds 50 % DV and -1 AP , 3rd Grenade too..... thats 32 K with AP -4 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)
( Plus Chunky Salsa and no dodging if the Grenades are aimed at the floor..... Welll , Holla die Waldfee, this . is . gonna . hurt . )

with an explosive Dance
Medicineman


does it really matter if you get to dodge or not when you're looking at that much damage with a very high probability of even more bouncing back from a wall or ceiling?

just think what it's gonna be like when weapon modding rules come in if you can make that thing full auto... you'll be able to just level entire buildings with it 0.o
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Sendaz
post Mar 28 2015, 05:29 PM
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which is why I believe Chandra always recommended using the overlap damage rule instead of full Chunky Salsa for figuring damage from rebounding off walls.

Still heft damage, but not totally liquefying like CS can be.
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Oracle
post Mar 28 2015, 07:37 PM
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QUOTE (Smash @ Mar 28 2015, 02:53 PM) *
The effect of semi-automatic burst is -2 defence modifier as per the table on p180. You can't multiply damage multiple times with it unless you use the multiple attack action and fire at 3 different targets.


Problem: Grenades aren't fired at "targets". Grenades are fired at spots on the ground.
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Oracle
post Mar 28 2015, 09:00 PM
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QUOTE (Medicineman @ Mar 28 2015, 02:14 PM) *
that.
2nd Grenade adds 50 % DV and -1 AP , 3rd Grenade too..... thats 32 K with AP -4 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)


So my beloved Flash-Bangs would do 20S AP-6 within a 10m radius. Sounds fun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)
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Umidori
post Mar 28 2015, 11:29 PM
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QUOTE (Smash @ Mar 28 2015, 06:53 AM) *
The chunky salsa rule exists for set explosives or when multiple grenades just happen to go off at the same time. This only occurs with timers or when 2 different characters throw them.

What's stopping a single character from throwing two or three grenades duct taped together? Or carrying three grenades and critically glitching the throw of one, dropping it at their feet? Sympathetic detonation is a thing, ya know.

~Umi
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Smash
post Mar 28 2015, 11:59 PM
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QUOTE (Oracle @ Mar 29 2015, 06:37 AM) *
Problem: Grenades aren't fired at "targets". Grenades are fired at spots on the ground.


Solution: Use the multi-attack action to attack 3 separate spots on the ground. Split your dice pool 3 ways and roll 3 separate attacks. Watch how you will have almost no way of getting 3 successful hits on any of these attacks and scatter the 3 grenades as per the grenade scatter rules. Lol when the grenades take out half the city block, half your team, lots of innocent bystanders and pretty much everything else (including yourself) except for the actual target you want to hit.

There is no magic 'grenade does x2 damage here' rule because someone noticed this launcher is SA rather than SS.

At the end of the day you can never apply damage more than once with a SA burst unless you use the multi-attack action. This is just as illogical (heaven forbid!) with guns as it is with grenades. It's still the rule.
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Umidori
post Mar 29 2015, 12:39 AM
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Except you're not applying damage with the burst - it's the grenades detonating afterwards that deals damage.

The fact is that the burst fire rules simply were not written to be applied to anything other than bullets, and that really there should be a separate specific entry for multiple grenades being fired. But this is just yet another case of slipshod rules that clearly weren't tested to any real degree, written and edited by people with no capacity for imagining any situations other than the most basic and plainly intended of usages.

~Umi
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Smash
post Mar 29 2015, 01:10 AM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Mar 29 2015, 10:29 AM) *
What's stopping a single character from throwing two or three grenades duct taped together? Or carrying three grenades and critically glitching the throw of one, dropping it at their feet? Sympathetic detonation is a thing, ya know.

~Umi


Well the multi-attacks rules are a clusterfuck at best but it seems that the intent of the rule is that you can use them to attacks multiple targets, not multiple attacks on the same target. Throwing weapons aside, quite clearly the rules state that you can only ever make one attack per action phase:

QUOTE (SR5 p167)
A character may fire a readied firearm in Long Burst or
Semi-Auto Burst via a Complex Action (see Firearms, p.
424). A character may attack multiple targets within Short
or Medium range by adding a Multiple Attacks Free Action
(see Multiple Attacks, p. 196). If a character has one
weapon in each hand, he may fire once with each weapon
by adding a Multiple Attacks Free Action (see Multiple
Attacks, p. 167). Off-hand modifier applies (see Attacker
Using Off-Hand Weapon, p. 178). Remember the effects
of cumulative recoil when using these fire modes.


Note 'multiple targets' not 'multiple times'.

Under semi-automatic burst it states:
QUOTE (SR5 p179)
Semi-Automatic Burst mode is three semi-automatic
shots taken in quick succession. Semi-Automatic weapons
can fire a burst of three rounds with a Complex Action.
With more shots going downrange they increase
the chance that a bullet will hit
. Semi-Automatic bursts
can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action
to fire at multiple targets
with the same burst.
See Firing Mode Table (p. 180) for attack information.


Again, multiple targets. When examining the firing made table on p180 all a semi-automatic burst does is modify defense by -2, there is no possibility of increasing base damage. There has been debate on this before. Many don't like the fact that the 3 separate bullets don't do 3x as much damage because of 'why not?' but that's just the way that it is. The 2 additional bullets act to ensure that the probability of 1 hitting increases, that's it. The other 2 bullets disappear into the ether of abstraction.

Now grenades can't be dodged but that doesn't just magically mean that they have some new semi-automatic burst rule. The advantage this provides is being able to target multiple targets. That has tactical value, it doesn't need to do more damage to justify (this rather cheap and available) weapon to be listed as SA, rather than SS.

Now people can think that because you fire 3 grenades then they must all explode and overlap and do additional damage, and I'd agree with you that logically that should happen, but ultimately this is not what the semi-automatic burst rule allows you to do. The only way you can do this is through the multi-attack free action in the manner described in my previous post.

(Note: Posted before I saw Umi's last response).
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Oracle
post Mar 29 2015, 10:18 PM
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So, what happens if someone decides to throw one of the three grenades from the semi-automatic burst back, before they explode?

To me it seems like there is a rule missing for this kind of weapon.

Neither the "treat it like a regular burst of bullets" nor the "simultaneous explosions" approaches are really satisfying.
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Smash
post Mar 29 2015, 11:09 PM
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QUOTE (Oracle @ Mar 30 2015, 09:18 AM) *
So, what happens if someone decides to throw one of the three grenades from the semi-automatic burst back, before they explode?

To me it seems like there is a rule missing for this kind of weapon.

Neither the "treat it like a regular burst of bullets" nor the "simultaneous explosions" approaches are really satisfying.


Well ultimately the rules would be that they throw the single grenade back and the other 2 still disappear due to abstraction.

This again is one of those cases where I don't think the game should or needs to mimic reality. One thing I really don't want to see in this system is a situation where players are rewarded for using automatic heavy weapons. They break the game too much already as it is.

I'm probably going to implement some of the rules in Run&Gun that allow players/NPCs to avoid AoE through interupt actions in games that I run to discourage their use.
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Stahlseele
post Mar 29 2015, 11:31 PM
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Aaah, Grenades . . still the most fun you can have while proving that the rules are stupid and don't make sense in certain cases.
Remember impact detonators and using grenades as thrown weapons to first inflict impact damage and then get rid of scatter because clearly you just hit.
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Umidori
post Mar 30 2015, 12:53 AM
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Is it really so hard to write sane grenade rules?

One line stating firmly that "Grenades inflict no damage on physical impact - they only deal damage upon detonation." A paragraph or two about sympathetic detonation of explosives, with whatever level of power scaling makes sense. Then make both grenades and "demolitions" use the same basic rules for how damage and AoE is handled, with grenades simply not getting the bonuses that prepared explosives do from tamping, et cetera. Done.

~Umi
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Smash
post Mar 30 2015, 01:44 AM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Mar 30 2015, 11:53 AM) *
Is it really so hard to write sane grenade rules?

One line stating firmly that "Grenades inflict no damage on physical impact - they only deal damage upon detonation." A paragraph or two about sympathetic detonation of explosives, with whatever level of power scaling makes sense. Then make both grenades and "demolitions" use the same basic rules for how damage and AoE is handled, with grenades simply not getting the bonuses that prepared explosives do from tamping, et cetera. Done.

~Umi


Wouldn't it be even simpler to just make sure that all explody guns are SS? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Umidori
post Mar 30 2015, 02:40 AM
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Simpler on one level, perhaps, but that would make things like weapon modding more complicated down the line. The solution isn't just to work around the problem, but to get rid of it entirely.

Treat the underlying problem, not the symptoms. The rules need to work for any reasonable given situation, because you never know when some strange exception to the rules is going to crop up.

Arbitrarily saying "no grenade launcher can be anything other than SS" simply doesn't work, because semi-automatic and fully automatic grenade launchers are an actual thing that exists in the real world today, and retconning them out of existence rather than fixing the rules is lazy and stupid. What you need to do is make it so that the rules actually work and can properly handle people firing grenade launchers in SA and FA modes.

~Umi
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Oracle
post Mar 30 2015, 12:58 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 30 2015, 01:31 AM) *
Remember impact detonators and using grenades as thrown weapons to first inflict impact damage and then get rid of scatter because clearly you just hit.


Why didn't I think of that? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) My GM will hate me. Even more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)
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Umidori
post Mar 30 2015, 01:35 PM
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If your GM is even half decent they'll say, "No, that's stupid" - if not because it's clearly absurd, then because it allows Throwing Adepts with Missile Mastery to get guaranteed one-shot kills against all but the toughest foes.

Even a grenade exploding at point blank can be survived - but getting in a free 10-15P attack on top of that is more than a little broken.

~Umi
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