Semi automatic bursts and the MGL-12 Options

[Jaid]

absurd in what sense? because it sounds fairly plausible. i don't imagine getting hit in the face with a grenade is likely to result in "oh well, it was just a half-pound steel ball, nobody's ever been hurt by anything like that".

[Umidori]

Gee, maybe in the sense that you're getting a free attack at absolutely no opportunity cost?

Rules exist to abstract reality and to fairly distribute power. A melee attack isn't a single punch - it's a series of attacks, feints, dodges, and other movements which set up the full strike. You don't get to say, "Hey! I have two hands, I should be able to make two punches with a single melee attack for twice the damage at no cost!"

Likewise, a grenade throw or launch isn't a pinpoint attack - it's an attempt to get the explosive in "the general area" of where you want it so the targets are caught in the blast. This is why grenades were given Scatter rules. You don't actually aim the grenade at a person - you aim it at a vicinity. Is this a perfect way to handle things? No, it isn't. But it's certainly fairer than letting a Throwing Adept get extra cheese-powered damage by throwing grenades like bricks.

Compare to Explosive Rounds for guns. No one says, "Aha! The bullet hits them first for normal damage, and THEN explodes for more!", because that's just stupid. The rules simply normalize the two different forces together into a single damage value. Based on that, if you really wanted to press the issue, I'd say maybe let grenades deal 1 extra point of damage to a beaned target.

But you definitely cannot allow it to count as a full damage standard thrown attack, because Throwing Adepts will exploit the hell out of that. A Troll with 9 Strength, plus another effective 12 from Power Throw, plus Missile Mastery would deal 12P minimum with the net hit needed to connect with the throw - effectively doubling the damage of the grenade on the struck target.

If we absolutely want to allow "impact damage" from grenades, then we need to figure out some way to balance that out compared to other options by adding other costs. Making them more expensive and less available might do the trick - if grenades are super powerful, they need to be appropriately hard to get a hold of and particularly painful for your wallet.

Or maybe we could add new limits to Throwing Adepts instead - like caps on damage based on the suitability of a thrown item. I don't care how much magic you use, the Missile Mastery power shouldn't allow you to explode someone's ribcage with a marshmallow. Yet by current RAW (at least in 4E), that's totally possible, meaning a bag of sugar puffs is as deadly as an assault cannon, while also being highly concealable, completely legal, dirt cheap, and having a huge "magazine" of "ammo".

I get that people want to be able to do cool tricks with playing cards and coins and stuff, but they really shouldn't be terribly viable choices with appropriate costs and limits - and they definitely should be on par with knives and other things intended to be thrown. A mere difference of 1 DV is just not enough. (Personally I think thrown playing cards are a prime candidate for being alchemical lynchpins, but I digress...)

~Umi

[Stahlseele]

Why didn't I think of that? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) My GM will hate me. Even more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Judging from your Post-Count, because you haven't actually hung around us lot long enough to think like that as of yet ^^

[Oracle]

Judging from your Post-Count, because you haven't actually hung around us lot long enough to think like that as of yet ^^

Hey, my tenth Dumpshock anniversary is closing in...

[Stahlseele]

Hmm, then i have no idea . .

[Medicineman]

if not because it's clearly absurd, then because it allows Throwing Adepts with Missile Mastery to get guaranteed one-shot kills against all but the toughest foes.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif)
but Grenade Beaning is a proven tactic of Missile-Master-Adepts since 3rd Edition. First You do the heightened Damage
from the Grenade as an Object and at the End of the IP the Grenade explodes ( this way you avoid the dreaded double Damage). Thats almost standard tactics... ? !!

with the dreaded Double Dance
Medicineman

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If your GM is even half decent they'll say, "No, that's stupid" - if not because it's clearly absurd, then because it allows Throwing Adepts with Missile Mastery to get guaranteed one-shot kills against all but the toughest foes.

Even a grenade exploding at point blank can be survived - but getting in a free 10-15P attack on top of that is more than a little broken.

~Umi

You don't really need Grenades for 1-Shot Kills from a Missile Master. They were pretty common for my Oni Ninja. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

Yes, but you typically could only kill one person per action, without also getting a free AoE explosion or two to mess with their buddies nearby. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

~Umi

[Medicineman]

Yes, but you typically could only kill one person per action, without also getting a free AoE explosion or two to mess with their buddies nearby. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

~Umi

Oh, don't get it wrong
you don't do double Damage with one Attack ! Thats a No-Go in the Rules (and for me too !) the Grenade Explosion is at the end of the IP (just like Poisoned Blades/Shuriken. the Poison works at the end of the IP)
I wonder if I can find the Link to one of Raben-Aas released Ideas ; explosive Shuriken....
Can't find it, sorry only this here
https://rabenwelten.wordpress.com/?s=shuriken
and here is the Equivalent Info for Shadowrun
https://rabenwelten.wordpress.com/category/...enal-71/page/4/

with a Single Dance
Medicineman

[KarmaInferno]

My Missions GM at Origins had probably the sanest reaction to a group of mooks in a car getting hit with a grenade burst into the vehicle.

"Um. They die. Messily. So does their car. And parts of the road."

I think the mooks had their own grenades as well. Oops.



-k

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My Missions GM at Origins had probably the sanest reaction to a group of mooks in a car getting hit with a grenade burst into the vehicle.

"Um. They die. Messily. So does their car. And parts of the road."

I think the mooks had their own grenades as well. Oops.

-k

And THAT is as it should be... A lot of players get a bit bent out of shape, however, when you tell them that "they see a great white light" and that it is now time to revisit Character Creation. Never mind that that is exactly what should happen when Shadowrunners go up against Military grade weapons and those who know how to use them. That said, the prices for things such as Grenades/Rockets/Missiles/High Explosives/etc. are ridiculously, ludicrously, low. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Oracle]

Only US-Americans wouldn't count an assault rifle as a military grade weapon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Medicineman]

A lot of players get a bit bent out of shape, however, when you tell them that "they see a great white light" and that it is now time to revisit Character Creation.

and thats exactly what Burning Edge is for (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

with a Burning Dance
Medicineman

[Smash]

And THAT is as it should be... A lot of players get a bit bent out of shape, however, when you tell them that "they see a great white light" and that it is now time to revisit Character Creation. Never mind that that is exactly what should happen when Shadowrunners go up against Military grade weapons and those who know how to use them. That said, the prices for things such as Grenades/Rockets/Missiles/High Explosives/etc. are ridiculously, ludicrously, low. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Which is exactly why, regardless of whether the rules allow it or not, gameplay that encourages constant heavy weapon usage should be discouraged.

Does anyone actually continue to play with people who's whole character concept relies on cheesing throwing grenades as adepts? I mean in 4th Ed you could do it strictly by the rules:

Throw Anything power
Troll with 15ish Str

If you can kill people with playing cards then surely you can with a grenade too? I see no reason why the grenade would not still explode (although it really is 2 attacks in one action when you get to the root of it, regardless of how much you rules-lawyer it, which precludes it in 5th Ed).

But it's just soooooooooo dumb.

[Stahlseele]

da 'splosives rules as a whole 're dumb!
anna whole lotta da warp stuff too.

[X-Kalibur]

Only US-Americans wouldn't count an assault rifle as a military grade weapon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That depends on what you're using to classify it as an "assault" rifle. It's only military grade if it has a fire selector and/or a mode other than semi-automatic.

[KarmaInferno]

Only US-Americans wouldn't count an assault rifle as a military grade weapon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Funny fact: You know what the difference is between an "assault rifle" and a regular rifle?

Mostly just how they look.

Civilian-legal 'assault rifles' are mechanically pretty much the same as any other semi-auto rifle. They are just designed to look scary. And perhaps they have more attachment points for accessories.

The difference between semi-auto and full auto weapons? Mechanically, just a tiny strip of metal, called a sear, that prevents a semi-auto weapon from firing again until the trigger is released. Legally, about a mile of red tape and licensing requirements, depending on where you live. Because full-auto weapons ARE classified as military-grade and have heavy restrictions.

The confusion comes because many folks don't realize there are semi-auto AND full-auto assault rifles.


-k

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Only US-Americans wouldn't count an assault rifle as a military grade weapon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Hope you are not counting me in that statistic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sengir]

That said, the prices for things such as Grenades/Rockets/Missiles/High Explosives/etc. are ridiculously, ludicrously, low. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, you can always play a campaign in the UK with the old London SB rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, you can always play a campaign in the UK with the old London SB rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

True... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Smash]

That said, the prices for things such as Grenades/Rockets/Missiles/High Explosives/etc. are ridiculously, ludicrously, low. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That really is the crux of the problem. Perhaps the solution to this is economics? If a grenade was 1000NY then you might use them only in select runs or emergencies rather than it being a go-to weapon of choice.

Hmmmm, time to implement the 'splodyx10' cost houserule (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Might need some drain changes for AoE elemental attacks to balance it out.

[Oracle]

That really is the crux of the problem. Perhaps the solution to this is economics? If a grenade was 1000NY then you might use them only in select runs or emergencies rather than it being a go-to weapon of choice.

Hmmmm, time to implement the 'splodyx10' cost houserule (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Might need some drain changes for AoE elemental attacks to balance it out.

That would be way more expensive than real life black market prices for grenades. And that's the black market in weapon-hostile Germany.

[Sengir]

That would be way more expensive than real life black market prices for grenades. And that's the black market in weapon-hostile Germany.

I don't think that the legislation for civilian small arms has a huge effect on the price for hand grenades (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Umidori]

The problem is that a bit of explosives and a shell doesn't cost much to produce

According to recent Federal Logistics Data, the cost of a M67 Fragmentation Grenade is $25.97, so 30 nuyen per grenade is just about right in terms of cost. There's just no realistic way the price is going to be in any way substantially higher in the 2070s.

Thus the limit should be availability. Grenades should be on par with other milspec stuff, anywhere from the high teens to the low twenties in my opinion. Certainly not available at the chargen without Restricted Gear. Non-lethal grenades suited for police work like flash-bangs might be mid teens, but still not available at chargen either.

~Umi

[Smash]

The problem is that a bit of explosives and a shell doesn't cost much to produce

According to recent Federal Logistics Data, the cost of a M67 Fragmentation Grenade is $25.97, so 30 nuyen per grenade is just about right in terms of cost. There's just no realistic way the price is going to be in any way substantially higher in the 2070s.

Thus the limit should be availability. Grenades should be on par with other milspec stuff, anywhere from the high teens to the low twenties in my opinion. Certainly not available at the chargen without Restricted Gear. Non-lethal grenades suited for police work like flash-bangs might be mid teens, but still not available at chargen either.

~Umi

Well the whole concept of having cheap things being unavailable is in itself somewhat flawed. Supply and demand dictate prices. If there's one shadowy quartermaster in Seattle selling grenades from army surplus at major risk to his career and personal safety, then you can bet that he won't be flogging them at 100NY each, irrespective of whether they cost 1NY each to make or not.